Fixing Castaway Cay port access for ships

[_auroraborealis_]

Does Disney offer anything to guests if they can’t dock at Castaway Cay? On board credit perhaps? Or do they just do a day at sea itinerary instead.

They schedule extra on-board activities.

 

[Maggie'sMom]

Does Disney offer anything to guests if they can’t dock at Castaway Cay? On board credit perhaps? Or do they just do a day at sea itinerary instead.

They just do a sea day and schedule additional on-board activities. They are not obligated to give a credit for any missed ports. With our changed itinerary, guest services helped the other family we were traveling with by allowing them to make a call to their tour operator in Cozumel to change their excursion to the new day. They booked outside of DCL and were grateful DCL helped them to reschedule that.

 

[asunutgirl]

The other thing to consider is that the ocean is full of life. Building a breakwater or trenching kills sea life and changes their environment.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The other thing to consider is that the ocean is full of life. Building a breakwater or trenching kills sea life and changes their environment.

They were already allowed to blow up a reef to create the current dock.

 

[NCConch]

I think the right thing to do is for disney to offer a minor added discount (e.g. $200) for all guests that can be used toward a future sailing.

Disney is already losing $$ by not docking because all of the cabana/excursion fees cannot be collected.

 

[asunutgirl]

They were already allowed to blow up a reef to create the current dock.

Yes I know. Doesn't mean its right for them to blow up another one.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Yes I know. Doesn't mean its right for them to blow up another one.

I agree, absolutely, by the way. The amount of work that was allowed originally is actually pretty surprising. On the other hand, the Bahamas is glad to not have drug runners on the island.

 

[MomOTwins]

Disney is already losing $$ by not docking because all of the cabana/excursion fees cannot be collected.

Yes, but they have still collected the entire cruise fare from passengers that are losing out on an important aspect of the vacation that was marketed to them. I understand it is in the contract, but imagine you went to McDonald's and ordered a Big Mac based on the picture up on the menu screen, and the cashier told you before you purchased that in a small number of cases, depending on availability, they may have to substitute or remove ingredients without compensation. You say okay, pay for the Big Mac, and then get a small pile of shredded lettuce because that is all that is in stock. That is the kind of policy that can erode customer satisfaction and hurt repeat business in the long run, even if it is in the contract. Therefore, I think if Disney wants to encourage repeat business, they should offer some minor compensation, either on-board credits so people can enjoy the ship on their extra sea day, or money toward a future cruise. I also recognize that this is a policy common to other cruise lines, but those other cruise lines do not charge the premiums that Disney does, and as noted, Disney markets CC VERY heavily in all of its promotional materials.

 

[apathetic]

I definitely feel your pain. We've been on cruises where ports were missed for weather conditions. It is painful when they cancel the ports that everyone paid a premium price to visit. They replace them with last minute additions you would never pay the premium fare to visit. Plus, it always happens last minute so you can't even get a refund for cancellation. Then you get to listen to people tell you about the cruise contract and Disney has no obligation except to keep your money.

You definitely have to give second thought to future cruises if you are interested in the ports and not so much the cruising aspect. You pay for a 3-day cruise and all you get is a visit to Nassau (a port where over half the people don't even leave the ship) and a day at sea with a patched together series of activities. I can see how that feels like a waste of money. Unfortunately, that is the nature of cruising. When you see news reports of Captains pushing the limits and crashing into docks or sailing through hurricanes, you do feel a little better about Disney decision making.

 

[Capt_BJ]

I AM a sailor, and somewhat familiar with this area (Gorda Cay) as it was prime patrol area of mine for a number of years .... and I have access to and know how to read a nautical chart.

1. As others have mentioned the 'problem' for the DCL ships at CC is not often current, it is wind. Too strong of a wind on the beam and the thrusters can not hold, or make progress against the force of the wind. The ship WILL get blown sideways. Of note, a ship going FORWARD will gain some 'stability' against this wind driven lateral force due to the hull 'digging in' in a sense ... thrusters fall out of the equation. When backing this does NOT happen and even worse the thrusters loose some of their effect when the ship begins to move backwards .... the maximum thruster force happens when the ship is not moving back or forward. This is why when the ship is trying to back in on a marginal day they will push as far as they can 'upwind' with the thrusters .. then back getting pushed sideways by the wind .... stop ... push against the wind with full thrusters .... back and get set .... Sort of a saw tooth approach. This is DIFFICULT and if the wind is TOO strong, just is not safe if even possible. I watched the Master try to back in like this one day for well over an hour b4 giving in .... I would not have tried for as long as he did!

2. That evening Mrs and I were sitting in a lounge - I was in uniform (USCG senior officer) and the Master noticed me/us. He came by and spoke and learning I was a Cutter Commanding Officer he sat and we talked shop/ship driving for over an hour. What I described above is not just my opinion .. it is what we discussed.

3. It was also abundantly clear that the decision to not stop at CC, no matter how bad the weather might be, was NOT taken lightly. DCL takes customer feedback seriously and he knew that overall 'satisfaction' scores had taken a BIG HIT. As I said I'd have stopped trying long b4 he did .... he kept trying as long as he felt there was ANY chance but finally had to yield to mother nature.

4. With the issue being mostly wind, a breakwater won't make the situation go away. However when looking at an extended breakwater or larger dock I'd say take a look at a chart of the area. Gorda Cay sits smack on the edge of a very quick and DEEP drop off .... the 100 meter curve is not very far beyond the end of the pier!!! If you compare to Little Stirrup Cay which is not very far away and where RCL is presently building a pier ... they have a significantly larger "shelf" of manageable depths to work with. This is why RCL has been able to anchor at COCO Cay (NCL uses Great Stirrup Cay and same thing applies for anchorage). They had a mile and a half where the water is in the 100 foot or less range ... very comfortable anchoring depths for a cruise ship. Disney practically had to build a pier and dredge the area they did as there is insufficient anchoring area (IMO) ... the water is either too deep or too shallow with not a lot of room 'tween.

5. An option would be to build ships with significantly more 'thruster' power .... but this takes up space on a ship. Another is to widen the slip area and have tugs available. Since there is no significant harbor nearby the tugs would have to live at CC and be exclusive to DCL ..... very expensive proposition.

One sailor's opinions and sharing a discussion with (a) DCL Master on the topic ....

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Yes, but they have still collected the entire cruise fare from passengers that are losing out on an important aspect of the vacation that was marketed to them. I understand it is in the contract, but imagine you went to McDonald's and ordered a Big Mac based on the picture up on the menu screen, and the cashier told you before you purchased that in a small number of cases, depending on availability, they may have to substitute or remove ingredients without compensation. You say okay, pay for the Big Mac, and then get a small pile of shredded lettuce because that is all that is in stock. That is the kind of policy that can erode customer satisfaction and hurt repeat business in the long run, even if it is in the contract. Therefore, I think if Disney wants to encourage repeat business, they should offer some minor compensation, either on-board credits so people can enjoy the ship on their extra sea day, or money toward a future cruise. I also recognize that this is a policy common to other cruise lines, but those other cruise lines do not charge the premiums that Disney does, and as noted, Disney markets CC VERY heavily in all of its promotional materials.

Not really a good analogy. At McDonald's they know right then what ingredients they have. On a cruise (particularly one that you've booked months ahead) there's no way of knowing what the weather/sea conditions are that could cancel that port. Not to mention political situations that can pop up at any time.

I think, for those people who are really worried about port cancellations, they should look into port cancellation insurance. There's already a thread running about that: https://www.disboards.com/threads/cruise-insurance-missed-ports.3686300/

 

[dad of 3 addicted to DCL]

I AM a sailor, and somewhat familiar with this area (Gorda Cay) as it was prime patrol area of mine for a number of years .... and I have access to and know how to read a nautical chart.

1. As others have mentioned the 'problem' for the DCL ships at CC is not often current, it is wind. Too strong of a wind on the beam and the thrusters can not hold, or make progress against the force of the wind. The ship WILL get blown sideways. Of not, a ship going FORWARD will gain some 'stability' against this wind driven lateral force due to the hull 'digging in' in a sense ... thrusters fall out of the equation. When backing this does NOT happen and even worse the thrusters loose some of their effect when the ship begins to move backwards .... the maximum thruster force happens when the ship is not moving back or forward. This is why when the ship is trying to back in on a marginal day they will push as far as they can 'upwind' with the thrusters .. then back getting pushed sideways by the wind .... stop ... push against the wind with full thrusters .... back and get set .... Sort of a saw tooth approach. This is DIFFICULT and if the wind is TOO strong, just is not safe if even possible. I watched the Master try to back in like this one day for well over an hour b4 giving in .... I would not have tried for as long as he did!

2. That evening Mrs and I were sitting in a lounge - I was in uniform (USCG senior officer) and the Master noticed me/us. He came by and spoke and learning I was a Cutter Commanding Officer he sat and we talked shop/ship driving for over an hour. What I described above is not just my opinion .. it is what we discussed.

3. It was also abundantly clear that the decision to not stop at CC, no matter how bad the weather might be, was NOT taken lightly. DCL takes customer feedback seriously and he knew that overall 'satisfaction' scores had taken a BIG HIT. As I said I'd have stopped trying long b4 he did .... he kept trying as long as he felt there was ANY chance but finally had to yield to mother nature.

4. With the issue being mostly wind, a breakwater won't make the situation go away. However when looking at an extended breakwater or larger dock I'd say take a look at a chart of the area. Gorda Cay sits smack on the edge of a very quick and DEEP drop off .... the 100 meter curve is not very far beyond the end of the pier!!! If you compare to Little Stirrup Cay which is not very far away and where RCL is presently building a pier ... they have a significantly larger "shelf" of manageable depths to work with. This is why RCL has been able to anchor at COCO Cay (NCL uses Great Stirrup Cay and same thing applies for anchorage). They had a mile and a half where the water is in the 100 foot or less range ... very comfortable anchoring depths for a cruise ship. Disney practically had to build a pier and dredge the area they did as there is insufficient anchoring area (IMO) ... the water is either too deep or too shallow with not a lot of room 'tween.

5. An option would be to build ships with significantly 'thruster' power .... but this takes up space on a ship. Another is to widen the slip area and have tugs available. Since there is no significant harbor nearby the tugs would have to live at CC and be exclusive to DCL ..... very expensive proposition.

One sailor's opinions and sharing a discussion with (a) DCL Master on the topic ....

Concur. As a Naval Officer who has driven Aircraft Carriers, Cruisers, a Destroyer and a Frigate, I categorically agree with the Captain. While I can empathize with the frustration OP expresses in missing the highlight of the cruise, from a piloting and navigation perspective, I've no doubt the captain of Dream made the correct call; and it was not done lightly.

Consider the freeboard (area of the ship above water) of the Dream class. It's a huge sail that is pushed hither and thither. While current will act more aggressively on a ship in a piloting situation, wind can have nearly as significant effect. The picture posted is nice, but the swells are no indication of the current in combination with the wind. My Carrier actually displaced less water than the Dream Class (105,000 tons of water compared to 135,000 tons for the Dream) and I would be very careful bringing her into an area like Castaway Cay without tug assistance (granted, she didn't have thrusters).

I, too had extensive conversations with both the Captain and Chief Engineer of Fantasy about piloting, maintenance at sea (fascinating approach and methods DCL uses) as well as combating complacence due to port familiarity. As the Captain mentioned above, these are professional mariners with thousands upon thousands of hours at sea whose livelihood and responsibility is the souls on their vessels, they won't endanger them.

I say all this while acknowledging that mistakes happen: witness the fender-bender Dream had that put a dimple in her stern flap.

 

[MomOTwins]

Not really a good analogy. At McDonald's they know right then what ingredients they have. On a cruise (particularly one that you've booked months ahead) there's no way of knowing what the weather/sea conditions are that could cancel that port. Not to mention political situations that can pop up at any time.

Fair enough; I was hungry when I wrote this. But other venues do provide compensation if there is a cancellation due to weather: e.g., sporting events, concerts.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Fair enough; I was hungry when I wrote this. But other venues do provide compensation if there is a cancellation due to weather: e.g., sporting events, concerts.

The cruise contract only really guarantees your room and the inclusions on ship. All ports are not guaranteed. This is a slightly different scenario than if the drummer goes to rehab and the tour is cancelled.

 

[Dug720]

The cruise contract only really guarantees your room and the inclusions on ship. All ports are not guaranteed. This is a slightly different scenario than if the drummer goes to rehab and the tour is cancelled.

100% agree.

And also, I used to go to outdoor concerts and they were VERY clear that it was weather permitting and in the case of severe weather, the show could be cancelled and no refunds meant NO refunds.

 

[DietCokeMommy]

Yup. I read the same OP that everyone else did. I still think, and the post implies, that OP would have enjoyed the cruise much more had it gone to CC as originally intended.

And by fair assessment, I meant the part where it was suggested OP was disproportionately angry.

I stand by the assessment. It’s seems a little over the top that their proposed remedy for the situation is that disney should spend millions on construction.

But then, I’m not as super into CC as others here are. It’s nice and it’s fun and whatnot. But it’s only a small part of the cruise to me and there are other tropical locations I liked as much or more.

 

[k3chantal]

I am very upset with DCL for a couple reasons, and it frustrates me they don't "fix it."

First of all, I am NOT a cruiser, don't get it, don't really like it. As a DVC member, I trek yearly to Disney World and spend a week at the parks. This year, we decided to visit Castaway Cay and learn all about this "amazing" island Disney owns, so we invested in a 3-day cruise. Needless to say, there was "bad weather," and the captain couldn't dock the boat at Castaway Cay... nor did he even try. I'm no expert, but the seas looked like this photo:

I am no maritime expert but I do know Disney has a lot of money. It would seem that adding breakwater swould eliminate the waves (which as you can see from my photo are not very big) that cause the docking problems. From the satellite image, it looks like the water isn't tremendously deep and I'm sure Disney could build a Tetrapod plant on the back of the island and barge in cement. Don't worry about lecturing me on the ecological impact, I'm sure Disney could do it with minimal impact and even improve the ecosystem in some way.

Secondly, there is literally no discussion about the possiblity of missing ports to newbs like myself. I can only find one instance of it being mentioned on the DCL site in the FAQ section. It feels unethical to avoid the topic which, from my research, appears to happen a lot. My google search for "Disney Missed Port Policy" resulted only 1 link from the Disney Cruise Line site and it's about missing the boat at port. It's obvious this possible/likely circumstance is buried by management.

I am sad that your experience wasn't everything you wanted it to be. My whole family finds Disney cruising more fun than the parks at this point.

Just like the parks, Disney controls what it can but there are things it can't control. Mainly, the weather. I always assume the captain knows best whether it is safe to dock and whether the weather will make the island enjoyable. When I go to a Disney park, I am disappointed when a favorite ride is closed for maintenance but I fundamentally understand that Disney does not want the ride breaking down when they have guests on it. I pay Disney premium prices because I believe they will try their best to keep us safe. It's not iron proof but perception is important.

Ironically, Castaway Cay is my family's least favorite part of our experiences when cruising. It appears that you looked into the island and what it offered and thought 'I must try it.", one can see it has a limited amount of activities so it mystifies me that this was such an important destination. The fauna has never appealed to me and after several visits; I feel that I have more than covered what they offer.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

100% agree.

And also, I used to go to outdoor concerts and they were VERY clear that it was weather permitting and in the case of severe weather, the show could be cancelled and no refunds meant NO refunds.

Perhaps an even better analogy is a Disney park in rain. You don't get a ticket refund when it's raining sideways.

 

[bumbershoot]

When you see news reports of Captains pushing the limits and crashing into docks or sailing through hurricanes, you do

Oh, well, I’m pretty sure it was only a Disney captain sailing through Sandy...

If you compare to Little Stirrup Cay which is not very far away and where RCL is presently building a pier ...

And it took them ages to do that, and WAY more missed days on the island than Castaway could dream of.

 

[MomOTwins]

Perhaps an even better analogy is a Disney park in rain. You don't get a ticket refund when it's raining sideways.

But if you have a fastpass for a ride that is inoperable, they give you a multiple experience fastpass to make up for it. And if parks are closed due to anticipated hurricanes, they give guests the option to reschedule and waive the cancellation fees, and they offered free extra nights to guests who were stuck at the resort when their departure flights were cancelled due to Irma. Even airlines which have dreadful customer service are required to rebook you or reimburse you for any cancellations due to weather, even for "nonrefundable" tickets. In my view, good customer service means going beyond the bare minimum you have to do under the contract, and Disney is usually known for its phenomenal customer service. That's why it is so weird to me to see that they would not offer anything to customers to make up for a major disappointment like this.

And also, I used to go to outdoor concerts and they were VERY clear that it was weather permitting and in the case of severe weather, the show could be cancelled and no refunds meant NO refunds.

That is nuts to me. If a contract gives one party to the right to collect your money and unilaterally cancel without giving you anything in return, that is an illusory contract--meaning that the contract seems to promise something but in actuality promises nothing under certain circumstances--and it is unenforceable. That does not apply to Disney because they are still giving you other things (e.g., room, dinner, entertainment) so they are not giving you nothing, but in the case of your concerts, that policy is pretty suspect.