Firefly for Manual Wheelchairs

[Jecca]

Bit of a random question: does anyone here use a manual wheelchair and have a Firefly attachment? This is a one-wheeled motorized item that essentially converts your wheelchair into a scooter. It’s removable, so you can only use it when you need it. I saw several people using them at WDW last year and did stop to talk to a few of them. But I guess I’m looking for more info on it from first hand users.

Thanks!

 

[RaySharpton]

I think someone here posted about using a device like that, but I don't remember if they used a brand name. Pretty cool for manual wheelchairs.

 

[Jecca]

Yep, that's exactly the one. I'm hoping to hear from someone who has experience using it in the parks.

 

[SueM in MN]

I would be concerned about the length it adds.
The dimensions I found for it were 36-40 inches long and from the pictures I’ve seen, it looks like it would add at least 2 to 2.5 feet to the length of the wheelchair from where it attaches in front of the front casters.
The allowed length for wheelchairs of ECVs at WDW is 52 inches.
My daughter’s manual wheelchair is 48 inches long total, and about 32 inches from the back to the point on the front where that would attach. So, I think it would be right at or exceed the length that is allowed.
I’m certain it would be too long for most of the wheelchair accessible ride cars and could not be used on WDW buses and possibly the monorails.

It looks like it would be pretty cool for outdoors in wide open spaces, but it doesn’t look very good choice for WDW.

 

[SueM in MN]

When my husband and I were in Europe, we saw a number of wheelchair that were fitted with power wheels.
Before she got her last power wheelchair, we did look into those. They really wouldn’t work for her, but would be a good option for many people (better suited for WDW I think than the Firefly).
These were some we looked at:
https://www.rowheels.com/product-category/wheelsets/

https://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com...ion-M15-Power-Assist-Wheelchair-Wheels/27183p (Probably most expensive)

https://www.max-mobility.com/smartdrive#mx2pluspushtracker

 

[cobright]

I pulled up a couple of photos of the Rio Firefly and did some measurements. the device length from bottom of wheel to top of handlebar, when installed is listed as about 43". So calculating the length of the photographed wheelchair wasn't too hard with that as a reference. The overall length of a firefly-wheelchair combo will depend on which wheelchair is being used but the ones I have seen online measure out to be about 58-63".

The allowed length for wheelchairs of ECVs at WDW is 52 inches.

This is sort of a gray area. The maximum length allowed on any of the Disney Transportation options is indeed 52". Likewise, this is the max they will allow on any of their rides.

But the rule about what is allowed in the park is only a recommendation. In a list of very hard and fast prohobitions, the specifications for mobility devices is mentioned as "should" be 32"x52" or less. If your rig ends up being 10" longer than that and you're only puttering about inside the park, I doubt they will even notice. More than that, it's unlikely they could legally require you to comply without exposure to an ADA action. Mobility devices may not be excluded by blanket rule without demonstrating that they pose a significant safety risk. Limiting them on transportation and rides, yes On the sidewalks, and less than a foot over? Probably not.

Nice thing about the Firefly is that it clips on and off very easily. Get a second set of mounting lugs to put on the back of your chair and you can pull the power wheel off and hang it on the back of your seat, easily conforming to the 52" maximum for the time you spend on a bus or ride.

 

[mamabunny]

I pulled up a couple of photos of the Rio Firefly and did some measurements. the device length from bottom of wheel to top of handlebar, when installed is listed as about 43". So calculating the length of the photographed wheelchair wasn't too hard with that as a reference. The overall length of a firefly-wheelchair combo will depend on which wheelchair is being used but the ones I have seen online measure out to be about 58-63".


This is sort of a gray area. The maximum length allowed on any of the Disney Transportation options is indeed 52". Likewise, this is the max they will allow on any of their rides.

But the rule about what is allowed in the park is only a recommendation. In a list of very hard and fast prohobitions, the specifications for mobility devices is mentioned as "should" be 32"x52" or less. If your rig ends up being 10" longer than that and you're only puttering about inside the park, I doubt they will even notice. More than that, it's unlikely they could legally require you to comply without exposure to an ADA action. Mobility devices may not be excluded by blanket rule without demonstrating that they pose a significant safety risk. Limiting them on transportation and rides, yes On the sidewalks, and less than a foot over? Probably not.

Nice thing about the Firefly is that it clips on and off very easily. Get a second set of mounting lugs to put on the back of your chair and you can pull the power wheel off and hang it on the back of your seat, easily conforming to the 52" maximum for the time you spend on a bus or ride.

I would hate to set the expectation that it *might* be ok - when in fact, it might not. What concerns me is this:



from this page at WDW's official website. Yes it is open to interpretation but I would err on the side of caution; this could be considered a "modification" to a standard wheelchair.

 

[cobright]

I would hate to set the expectation that it *might* be ok - when in fact, it might not. What concerns me is this:

View attachment 397954

from this page at WDW's official website. Yes it is open to interpretation but I would err on the side of caution; this could be considered a "modification" to a standard wheelchair.

I read that to be a follower to the "...or devices that cannot maintain stability and balance when stopped, unpowered and/or unoccupied." part. Meaning that a segway with training wheels that keep it upright is still not allowed.

As for interpretation, restrictions still have to be based on significant actual risk.

 

[mamabunny]

I read that to be a follower to the "...or devices that cannot maintain stability and balance when stopped, unpowered and/or unoccupied." part. Meaning that a segway with training wheels that keep it upright is still not allowed.

See... I am the person who read it like a list of (what should have been) bullet points that is in paragraph form. If you break it out into a bulleted list, it feels "clearer" to me:

• Wheeled mobility devices with less than 3 wheels or devices that cannot maintain stability and balance when stopped, unpowered and/or unoccupied.
• Training wheels and/or modifications are not permitted.
• Devices must be manually or electrically powered and operated at a walking pace.
• Devices should be single rider and not exceed 36" (92 cm) in width and 52" (132 cm) in length.

But I fully agree with your point that a Segway with training wheels would still not be allowed based on that language.

As for interpretation, restrictions still have to be based on significant actual risk.

But, at the end of the day, it's Disney's ball, *and* Disney's playground. They get to set any restrictions, and rules that they want, *and* they get to interpret them how they want, provided that they don't contradict local, state or federal law. Given the wildly inconsistent nature with which they tend to enforce their own rules and regulations, I would feel horrible if someone showed up with a very expensive device like the Firefly, only to find that the first security officer or CM they bump into decides to be "that guy" and send them home.

On a personal level, I think it's a very clever device that clearly solves a need - but for me, I would want something more compact; I feel like that front wheel could cause issues, for example, if you were trying to shop independently - you would not be able to pull directly up to a counter, or a display, but would always have to find a way to parallel park.

I have never actually seen a handcycle like the Firefly in the wild - and one reason could be because it isn't as practical as some of the other power modifications that @SueM in MN linked to.

 

[cobright]

Devices should be single rider and not exceed 36" (92 cm) in width and 52" (132 cm) in length.

Whenever you see rules spelled out, the language is very important when lawyers are involved. When they spell out what is expected from the secondary part of an agreement (the user or guest or whatever, the person not writing the agreement usually) if it says something "should" be so then it is a suggestion. If it says something "must" be so then it is a requirement. Just like on the other end when it says a party "may" do something it only means it is being specifically allowed as a choice, versus "shall" or "must" which is a requirement.

That said, rules on websites are usually so sloppy as to be worthless.

But, at the end of the day, it's Disney's ball, *and* Disney's playground. They get to set any restrictions, and rules that they want, *and* they get to interpret them how they want, provided that they don't contradict local, state or federal law.

It is, and they do. But if they restrict a person's choice in which mobility aid they use arbitrarily, they open themselves to ADA liability. Telling someone their kit must fit within a certain box is an obvious necessity for rides and on transportation options and they have engineering specifications to back that up. But prohibit someone's mobility aid from simply existing within the park or resorts because it is 62" instead of 52" long, they could be called to show, in court, that those extra 10" pose a significant increased risk to the other guests and the CMs.

This was the issue in the Segway case (BAUGHMAN v. WALT DISNEY WORLD CO); which they won. Their burden was to show that a Segway could not be operated in the park without significantly increasing the risk to other people there. They met it by bringing in expert testimony from Greg Hale, a scientist, engineer and a personal friend of the Segway inventor. The plaintiff did not bring in any evidence that it could be operated without such risk to others.

So the question is, can they show that a 53" long ECV is an actual significant risk to people on the property when a 52" long ECV is not? Or 54" or 62"? Eventually it becomes easy, a 10 foot long (120") ECV would cause real problems. They could kick that guy out without fear, because showing that a 10 foot long scooter is difficult to control safely and poses an obstruction risk in their crowded parks would be a cakewalk and winning that case would probably get them awarded their fees from the disabled plaintiff. But I'm dubious that the same strength of argument can be made that a 62" ECV is a significant risk, that it would be impossible to operate on their sidewalks safely.

These were some we looked at:
https://www.rowheels.com/product-category/wheelsets/

I didn't think these were powered. They looked like a reversing gear set to make pulling the rim drive the wheel forward. Neat idea really.

https://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com...ion-M15-Power-Assist-Wheelchair-Wheels/27183p (Probably most expensive)

These are crazy expensive and something is fishy about the company. It's German I think, and maybe they just don't support the US market well but I can find pairs of these wheels for like $150, but no batteries for them anywhere. Not sure why they are so expensive, their controls are rudimentary, and hub motors like for bikes, can be had for a few hundred bucks.

https://www.max-mobility.com/smartdrive#mx2pluspushtracker

I like this one a lot. In particular, this one is nice for a person who is otherwise pushed by a caregiver. The old wired control could be installed up on a push handle.

 

[lanejudy]

the language is very important when lawyers are involved

Yes, but lawyers practice in the courtroom and not at the entrance gates to WDW. So...while the argument may win in court, that is likely to be after-the-fact from being turned away at the gate. If someone is willing to risk access to their own vacation, I suppose they could give it a try. But most of us would rather call it safe than sorry.

But prohibit someone's mobility aid from simply existing within the park or resorts because it is 62" instead of 52" long, they could be called to show, in court, that those extra 10" pose a significant increased risk to the other guests and the CMs.

I suspect it is more operational (moving around the parks) rather than a direct safety or "risk" issue. The queues can be tight with switchbacks; the longer a device the more space is needed to turn 180 degrees and may not fit within the confines of the queue. Counter service queues, too. Aisles in restaurants and shops are already tight, sometimes even too tight for the mobility equipment that is allowed, limiting access. The size restrictions may well have to do with ability to maneuver through spaces, without causing a logjam or back-up when someone discovered their device doesn't fit but also can't turn around to get out.

 

[cobright]

The queues can be tight with switchbacks; the longer a device the more space is needed to turn 180 degrees and may not fit within the confines of the queue.

Oh yeah, absolutely. The specifications for bringing an ecv into an attraction are a completely different animal. They have various reports and conformance guidelines at hand.

No, what I mean is that Disney's choices to limit mobility tech cannot be arbitrary. They couldn't decide that all of a sudden 4 wheeled ecv that otherwise meet the criteria cannot be brought into the park. Not unless they can prove some significant risk. And while they dont have lawyers at the gate, eventually violating ADA can catch up with you. Disney generally works very hard to stay on the right side of it.

 

[SueM in MN]

Yes, but lawyers practice in the courtroom and not at the entrance gates to WDW. So...while the argument may win in court, that is likely to be after-the-fact from being turned away at the gate. If someone is willing to risk access to their own vacation, I suppose they could give it a try. But most of us would rather call it safe than sorry.



I suspect it is more operational (moving around the parks) rather than a direct safety or "risk" issue. The queues can be tight with switchbacks; the longer a device the more space is needed to turn 180 degrees and may not fit within the confines of the queue. Counter service queues, too. Aisles in restaurants and shops are already tight, sometimes even too tight for the mobility equipment that is allowed, limiting access. The size restrictions may well have to do with ability to maneuver through spaces, without causing a logjam or back-up when someone discovered their device doesn't fit but also can't turn around to get out.

I agree, especially with bolded items.
Size makes a difference everywhere for moving around space. The shops have been renovated/rearranged to make more space, but everything is still tight.
Risk can exist in many ways - making it difficult to move around because of the sizes of all the different devices can be a risk all by itself.

Regarding the Firefly device that is the subject of this post - IMHO it would be very impractical to use in the Theme parks unless the user intended to just ride around the pathways without going into an attractions or buildings. From watching some of the videos, it’s really most suited for things like going for a walk in a park.
Getting out of the wheelchair for most users would mean removing it. Getting into attractions (even the wheelchair accessible ride cars) would mean removing it. Going into a restaurant and sitting still the table would mean removing it. And, no place to put it while it’s not in use. So, it does look pretty impractical for use at WDW (but, pretty awesome for a park, or for city sidewalks).

 

[SueM in MN]

These are the guidelines under the ADA for Other Power Driven Devices (OPDMDs):

“Public and private entities must make reasonable modifications in their policies, practices, or procedures to permit individuals with mobility disabilities to use OPDMDs, unless the entity can demonstrate that the class of OPDMDs cannot be operated in accordance with legitimate safety requirements.

The decision about allowing a particular OPDMD in a specific facility or area depends on:

• The type, size, weight, dimensions, and speed of the device;
• The facility’s volume of pedestrian traffic (which may vary at different times of the day, week, month, or year);
• The facility’s design and operational characteristics (e.g., whether its service, program, or activity is conducted indoors; its square footage; the density and placement of stationary devices; and the availability of storage for the device, if requested by the user);
• Whether legitimate safety requirements can be established to permit the safe operation of the OPDMD;
• Whether the use of the OPDMD creates a substantial risk of serious harm to the immediate environment or natural or cultural resources, or poses a conflict with federal land management laws and regulations.”

The size and dimensions are very important considerations and go along with the volume of pedestrian traffic.

 

[BillSears]

Have you looked at the Smartdrive? It's a power assist that sits under your chair and is controlled by a smartwatch watch on your wrist. I just got one a couple of weeks ago and I think it'll help a lot at WDW. But I mostly just activate it on tough hills.

 

[mamabunny]

Have you looked at the Smartdrive? It's a power assist that sits under your chair and is controlled by a smartwatch watch on your wrist. I just got one a couple of weeks ago and I think it'll help a lot at WDW. But I mostly just activate it on tough hills.

Bill, will you please come back with a review on that, after you have had a chance to use it? Thank you

 

[BillSears]

I got a chance to use it today at the Dallas Arboretum and Botanical Garden. It was fantastic for me. I picked up how to use the controls quickly and I used it whenever I was going up a hill. It gets a bit tricky when it gets crowded so I had to turn it off when I got too close to others. When it was just level I pushed my chair myself because that's easy for me.

I think it'll be a great way for me to conserve my shoulders at WDW. I may even start using the monorail station at the MK. That ramp has always been a shoulder killer.

BTW, I wouldn't recommend this to people who have issues with new tech or reacting quickly to hit the brakes. Otherwise you'll end up going to fast into a crowd or a turn.

 

[mamabunny]

I got a chance to use it today at the Dallas Arboretum and Botanical Garden. It was fantastic for me. I picked up how to use the controls quickly and I used it whenever I was going up a hill. It gets a bit tricky when it gets crowded so I had to turn it off when I got too close to others. When it was just level I pushed my chair myself because that's easy for me.

I think it'll be a great way for me to conserve my shoulders at WDW. I may even start using the monorail station at the MK. That ramp has always been a shoulder killer.

BTW, I wouldn't recommend this to people who have issues with new tech or reacting quickly to hit the brakes. Otherwise you'll end up going to fast into a crowd or a turn.

Thank you!