financial profiles

[WDWDad]

I was reading on the other thread about profiles of a DVC 'er that everyone thinks that they are middle class. I posted that I considered ourselves middle class, but that I am not sure where the #'s are. What defines middle class in terms of income ? From everyone elses posts we sound very mainstream.

I don't want to begin anything which anyone is unconfortable with so I thought about trying this. I was hoping that we could use this as barometer of how much money the average DVC member puts into their investment. Hopefully, this will be very generic and not make anyone uncomfortable. If I am prying that is not my intention and please forgive me. I am only trying to use this as a tool to gauge what value members place on their vacations.

O.K. that said this is what I am proposing.

Take your total points X $65 per point and divide by last years household income.

Only you will know what #'s you use for points and income and all we will do is compare %'s. It may not be scientific, but it might give members some idea of where they are in relation to other members

 

[WDWguru]

Between this and the other "profile" thread, DH got curious as to actual numbers that define "classes." He went to the Economic Policy Institute site and found them! So, for those of you curious:

Lower Class = $9,057 to $22,826

Lower Middle Class = $20,853 to $39,600

Middle Class = $32,859 to $59,400

Upper Middle Class = $48,447 to $88,082

Upper Class = $99,422 to $155,040


As you can see, there's a lot of overlap. They are household figures, so it's due to variations in the number of people and earners per household. So these are the bottom and top numbers in each classification regardless of family size.

 

[PamOKW]

I'm not following how this works. I did a purchase and an add-on, both more than 5 years ago. I paid less than $65 per point but did finance. Are you saying to just take whatever the total number of points we have now multiply by $65 and divide by last year's income? I'm not sure what that will prove. (Really, just asking...not judging.)

WDWGuru -- Interesting statistics. I am living in the wrong place! In our area, the "Upper Middle Class" level is within the parameters to qualify for finance assisted rentals.

 

[kem330]

I wonder when/how they came up with this classification. I know many double income families who fall in the upper range who would hardly consider themselves upper class. Hey it takes a fortune just to feed and educate kids these days let alone buy a house and take vacations! And where does that leave the physicians and corporate ceos making over $500,000/year???

 

[WDWguru]

There is a final, upper tier that is the "top 5%" which are considered Wealthy. They average about $375,000 a year. Each one of those tiers above represents 19% of the population, minus the top 5% - that's where the "middle class" definition comes from. It's the middle 19%.

It is a bit shocking to see the numbers in black and white. However, it reminds us how lucky we are in this country. The average salary worldwide is less than the equivalent of $11,000 a year for a household. Households do also vary quite a bit. In the last census, the largest growing group (about 27%) were married people without children. There are also more and more of the boomer generation aging and going to fixed income.

Most of us tend to know more about others in your own income range and think of that as "average," but when you travel - even in the US - there are an amazing number of people living on far less than we make. We're all pretty lucky (or, better worded, have worked hard enough) to be able to afford DVC in the first place, no matter what our economic situation.

Now I am NOT a numbers person, so I'm handing all further comment over to DH.

 

[WDWDad]

Guru, interesting stuff. Obviously the numbers are averages and need to be taken in context as to where a person lives and of course family size.

Pam, the $65 figure is merely representative of an average cost figure one might pay purchasing a sizable contract on the resale market. It isn't meant to be someone's actual cost basis, which would have been influenced by many widely varied circumstances. There is no scientific significance here, other than the ability to compare your investment with how another member family may have spent on theirs.

 

[Dean]

When Timeshare Developers target people to sell their product to, they generally target those with a yearly income over a certain figure. It varies from one developer to another depending on how aggressive they are and how expensive their product is. Marriott and I believe DVC target those at $75,000 or greater yearly income. I've seen others who list $60,000 and one at $55,000. For the preview's they will generally not offer unless you meet their magic number. When you get a card offering a few days in return for a tour, look at the fine print and see what the number is.

 

[Mary Ellen]

Originally posted by WDWguru
Upper Middle Class = $48,447 to $88,082

Upper Class = $99,422 to $155,040

What happened to $88,083 to $99,421?

Also, where you live is going to have a LOT to do with what category you fall in. A dollar in in Colorado Springs (or Des Moines, ....) will go a lot further than in Manhattan, Honolulu, DC, Bay area .....

 

[BCVOwner2002]

WDWDad - interesting thread. I took your poll too. It will be interesting to follow where Disboard members fit in your poll.

WDWguru - amazing to see "classes" in black & white

 

[PamOKW]

Oh well. I still can't vote in the polls anyway. (Keep getting an error message.)

Also keep in mind that we automatically add another factor into looking at who is the DVC membership. We are only reaching those DVC'ers who use the Internet and have found the DIS. We have a very small sample of foreign DVC owners who post here. There are several foreign members who own the maximum number of points (and even a few members (US based I think) who post here).

 

[WDWguru]

What happened to $88,083 to $99,421?

I wondered that myself. Apparently it is a statistically insignificant amount of people. DH had to extrapolate the data from census records, so the page doesn't specifically say who those folks are.

Also, where you live is going to have a LOT to do with what category you fall in. A dollar in in Colorado Springs (or Des Moines, ....) will go a lot further than in Manhattan, Honolulu, DC, Bay area .....

True, but this is quality of life or cost of living index, which is separate from economic classification. The point of this listing was basic stats - who falls where regardless of family size or cost of living. It's pure, basic numbers and nothing else.

 

[tigger2esq]

I was surprised to see the actual "classifications" as well. under the statistics DH and I fall into "upper" which I find amusing as we are currently having an argument over whether or not we can afford a house!!!! LOL! (We opted last year to buy DVC as opposed to saving the $$ for the downpayment on a new home and wait instead a few more years for the house). all this and we are pretty frugal people who tend to sock more away for a rainy day than spend. Sometimes however I foget the fact that we can afford luxuries like DVC and other nice annual vacations while others struggle just to keep food on the table. I was reminded of this fact only recently when DH and I tried to coordinate an annual family vacation next year (at DVC GV) with our extended family and had only 3 people express interest--with his brothers family and my sisters family declining because of the expense (something DH and I never even considered).

 

[POOH&PIGLET]

Upper Middle Class = $48,447 to $88,082

So I'm considered "Upper Middle Class" .
With student loans, a mortgage, DVC payments, 2 children, some credit card debt , and living in NYC, I don't feel like "Upper Middle Class" .

So a household that earns $48,447 is upper middle class. Not in my book. What if you have 6 kids? What if you live in NYC (or anywhere else that has a high cost of living)?

 

[PamOKW]

So a household that earns $48,447 is upper middle class.

How do you like that Pooh&Piglet? In our NY area you can be upper middle class in this classification but still have to struggle to feed a family. As you know, $48,000 isn't that much in NYC or surrounding suburbs. This reminds me of the surveys that come out with the incomes for the top 2% of salaries. I think they all live here since they are a lot more than 2% of our area.

 

[Jen D]

Yeah, we are on the high side of "upper middle class" but can't afford to own an apartment or a car, or send our kids to private school. Hell, some weeks I can't afford to pick up my dry cleaning! That's life in the city.

 

[crisi]

Go to the US Census web page. The median 4 person household income in Connecticutt is around $83,000 - so around there $83,000 is middle class. New York is $62,500 (I'd think the NYC would be higher and the outstate incomes are lower), national median is about $62,000.


The economic policy institutes definitions are not (by any means) universally accepted and there isn't really a good consensus on class (many people think it has more to do with assets than income - and there are always examples of people with large amounts of income who live a sparse lifestyle - and those that live an extravagant lifestyle they can't afford.)

At the same time, its important to realize that just because someone is the poorest millionarie in the Hamptons does not make them poor. Will anyone cry my uncle a river if he can't afford the payments on the BMW, Lexus, and Hummer, and has to sell the condo in Vail? (I sure won't).

 

[crisi]

Did a little more digging at the US Census site.

The Census doesn't define class, but here is the breakdown for family income in 2000

19% of Americans made under $24,000

19% made between 24 and 41,000

19% made between 41 and 61,378

19% made between 61,378 and 91,700

19% made between 91,700 and $160,250

5% made over $160,250

 

[WDWguru]

I think the instinct to define class by standard of living is common, and valid. Dealing with pure numbers just ignores too many factors, imho. However, it makes it very difficult to truly classify people across different geographic areas, family sizes, etc. All it does is give us some idea of how much we have to use. HOW we use it is subject to several factors, which is what is now coming up in this discussion. Personally, I think some of those factors should come into play with class distinctions.

However, I think the important thing to realize here is that when government policy is concerned, they do look at pure numbers. When they talk about tax cuts "for the wealthy" - a lot of times they're talking about you and your neighbors, whether you consider yourself "wealthy" or not. That's what creates the class warfare/envy in America, I think. They have this need to classify everyone and villify those in the upper tiers, regardless of whether they worked hard to get where they are, give back with time or money to charity and the community, or not.

I'll say again, I'm not a big numbers person and economics is definitely not one of my favorite subjects, but I think this has been interesting to see how people view themselves within the system.