Fewer Religious Americans

[Uncle Remus]

Young people I think see the hipocracy of the homophobia promoted by most religions. Many kids believe that a religion that promotes hate simply can't be true. Unfortunately most religions promote hate of homosexuals. And mark my words, all this hate will destroy the religions themselves, not homosexuality.

I couldn't agree more! In my daughter's rural school, the vast majority of kids are gay friendly and a LOT consider themselves bixesual or gay. My daughter is a lesbian. I get the impression from her and her friends that the anti-gay message from churches is one of the bigger reasons why they have rejected religious teachings. And it is only going to get worse for the churches if the hate-talk doesn't stop. The last administration really affected the kids in my daughter's peer group. They aren't stupid; they watch the news. They didn't appreciate their president threatening to change the constitution to take away potential rights from gays and their friends. I do believe that homophobia is on its way out. As our younger people mature, they are bringing peace towards gays with them into their adulthood. Unfortunately for the churches, if they don't remove the hate from their own agendas, they are going to lose a lot of support.

No one clean answer. I know that there are several RC churchs going up here (in Central Florida) as they are closing in the northeast. Some of that is due to the migration of retirement folks to this area...and other areas (southwest, too).

Some of it is due to the younger people realizing that some formal religious groups can be more of a hate based organization than a love based, peace seeking organization. When groups band together to exclude others, they do more harm to themselves than any of the groups they are excluding.

The gay issue is another aspect. It's not just the younger generation who are looking at formal church/religious groups and seeing the lack of tolerance and acceptance. That is driving some away, and keeping others from joining.

Some of it is the social construct (regardless of immediate economic concerns) that as the social order is more successful people move away from the need to attend church.

No simple clean answers, but an interesting observation none the less.

It's not the influence of the younger generation, it's the lack of influence of the older generation.

It does appear the older folks think differently than younger ones:

The study found that four factors — party identification, ideology, frequency of religious service attendance and age — drove the “yes” vote for Proposition 8. For example, more than 70 percent of voters who were Republican, identified themselves as conservative, or who attended religious services at least weekly supported Proposition 8. Conversely, 70 percent or more of voters who were Democrat, identified themselves as liberal, or who rarely attended religious services opposed the measure.

More than two-thirds (67 percent) of voters 65 or older supported Proposition 8, while majorities under 65 opposed it. The study concluded that it was only the strong support of voters 65 or older that led to the measure’s passage.

An In-Depth Analysis of the Prop 8 Vote

That "gay issue" has brought many things to light in this country.

 

[fleetwood]

I'll second what a previous poster said. The older folks have defintely done a disservice to today's "young people". Just looking at the immoral/perversive society we live in makes me worry about the future my daughter will have to live in.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Young people I think see the hipocracy of the homophobia promoted by most religions. Many kids believe that a religion that promotes hate simply can't be true. Unfortunately most religions promote hate of homosexuals. And mark my words, all this hate will destroy the religions themselves, not homosexuality.

You think it is all about gay people? Seriously?

 

[smartestnumber5]

This is it. If you don't take your kids to church...if you don't make your kids go to church, that is, they won't become religious.

I don't think it can be that. There are an awful lot of atheists/agnostics/secularists who have horrible memories of being forced to go to religious services for years. Almost all of my friends are atheists/agnostics/secularists, but almost all of them were raised in some religion or another.

Personally I hated every minute of church for my entire childhood/adolescence. And I was sent to Catholic school for 8 years. And at by age 14 I was an atheist and never looked back. (Even at that point my mom tried to force me to go to church, but she got tired of my refusal to kneel or take communion or go through any other motions and soon left me alone.) Another friend of mine was raised by a fundamentalist preacher who ran abstinence only education programs. She was totally into until she hit about college age. Today she's gay AND an atheist!

Actually I do wonder if this is purely a change occurring because of young people. I think that's probably a big part of it, but in my own family/friend circle I've seen numerous people drift away from religion as adults. One friend is in her late 20s and was one of the few people I knew throughout college and grad school who was religious; but now she's starting to drift. My mom has had a long process throughout her late 30s-early 50s of rejecting the Catholic Church over lots of issues--the political meddling, the promoting of discrimination against gays, my brother's negative experiences in Catholic school, etc. She went from sending both of her kids to Catholic school to refusing to give the church any money (for fear it will be used to promote discrimination against her daughter) and never attending church anymore. Another old friend of hers in her 50s used to send her kids to Catholic school, but now has no desire to even go to church. A cousin of mine is in approaching 40 and started having real issues with the church around age 30.

This has been self evident in Europe for a long time, even in traditionally Catholic countries such as France and Spain.

Yes I would think the interesting question is not "what explains these recent shifts in the U.S.?" but "why has the U.S. been an anomaly amongst western democratic nations for so long in retaining such a high level of religious believe and participation?"

The answer to that question has always puzzled me.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I'll second what a previous poster said. The older folks have defintely done a disservice to today's "young people". Just looking at the immoral/perversive society we live in makes me worry about the future my daughter will have to live in.

The "me" generation destroyed America, but I am not sure that it had anything to do with religion...

 

[smartestnumber5]

You think it is all about gay people? Seriously?

I don't think it can be *all* about gay people.

There are some religions (too few unfortunately) that are quite accepting of gay people and believe in complete equality. But the trend the OP is talking about isn't toward those accepting religions--it's toward atheism.

I don't think people become atheists because they disagree with what a particular religion says about homosexuality. I think people become atheists because religion as a whole (even religions that are totally accepting of homosexuality) just doesn't make sense to them. But I suppose it might be that the gay issue is one of the things that prompts people to start questioning their own religion, which could in turn lead them to question religion in general.

 

[Uncle Remus]

You think it is all about gay people? Seriously?

Hurricanes are.

Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city.
-Michael Marcavage Repent America

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

You think it is all about gay people? Seriously?

I think religion's homophobia is the most blatant example of the hatred promoted by religion. Another example is the hatred of the outsider. Many religions teach that if you are not a member of that religion, and you don't accept certain teachings, you are not going to get whatever rewards god has for the faithful. In fact, in some religions outsiders are threatened with all kinds of nasty punishments and tortures. How are kids going to believe this nonsense when they've been exposed throughtout their lives to people from all over the world, people of many different cultures and religions?

 

[ford family]

Yes I would think the interesting question is not "what explains these recent shifts in the U.S.?" but "why has the U.S. been an anomaly amongst western democratic nations for so long in retaining such a high level of religious believe and participation?"

The answer to that question has always puzzled me.

I, too, have puzzled over this for many years.
The history of the USA obviously has a great bearing, not just the initial immigrants seeking religious tolerance, but the constant reinforcement of that safe harbour status by successive waves of people from Eastern Europe, Russia, Ireland etc and, more recently, from Central America.

ford family

 

[PeterPan09]

I don't think it can be *all* about gay people.

There are some religions (too few unfortunately) that are quite accepting of gay people and believe in complete equality. But the trend the OP is talking about isn't toward those accepting religions--it's toward atheism.

I don't think people become atheists because they disagree with what a particular religion says about homosexuality. I think people become atheists because religion as a whole (even religions that are totally accepting of homosexuality) just doesn't make sense to them. But I suppose it might be that the gay issue is one of the things that prompts people to start questioning their own religion, which could in turn lead them to question religion in general.

That makes sense to me. When people sit in Church on Sunday and hear their preacher say that gay people are "disordered" and "immoral" and they either have friends or family members that are gay-it has to do something to them.

But then, there are people like me. I keep right on attending Mass, because my understanding is that the "laws" about gay people were written during a time when maintaining a growing population was crucial. If you didn't make more Christians (or Jews) the sect would die out, so relationships that could not produce offspring were frowned upon. There is not one word about homosexuality in the Gospels, while there are discussions of other sins-such as lack of love or charity to the least among us. Judging by the evidence, Jesus felt that "love one another" was a lot more important than "hate thy homosexual neighbor".

 

[ckay87]

Unfortunately religion in general does not promote hatred. But the most vocal and public religions seem to promote hatred. The quiet religious are mostly about love and acceptance. My cousin is gay and deeply religious. He is a deacon of his (Lutheran, I think) church

 

[hentob]

This is it. If you don't take your kids to church...if you don't make your kids go to church, that is, they won't become religious.

I attended church/Sunday School/Methodist Youth Fellowship in the evenings my entire childhood. I went to church camps and took years of confirmation classes. Name a hymn, I will sing it word for word

The older I get, the less I believe in Christianity. And I am NOT religious

I think forcing someone to go to church is wrong

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Hurricanes are.

Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city.
-Michael Marcavage Repent America

 

[breezy1077]

I haven't read through the responses yet, but I think the closer we get to end times the more defined the line will be and the more folks will decide on exactly which side they stand. JMHO.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I think religion's homophobia is the most blatant example of the hatred promoted by religion. Another example is the hatred of the outsider. Many religions teach that if you are not a member of that religion, and you don't accept certain teachings, you are not going to get whatever rewards god has for the faithful. In fact, in some religions outsiders are threatened with all kinds of nasty punishments and tortures. How are kids going to believe this nonsense when they've been exposed throughtout their lives to people from all over the world, people of many different cultures and religions?

I don't know of a single religion that teaches hatred of any other group, but I could be wrong. Even the Muslim faith has to be twisted to be used as it is.

What you see are people twisting faith and religion, but I can understand how that might have you blame the religion - just as many blame Islam for 9/11...

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...I think forcing someone to go to church is wrong

Is it wrong to force your children to go to school?

 

[Uncle Remus]

I don't know of a single religion that teaches hatred of any other group, but I could be wrong. Even the Muslim faith has to be twisted to be used as it is.

What you see are people twisting faith and religion, but I can understand how that might have you blame the religion - just as many blame Islam for 9/11...

Partial transcript of comments from the Thursday, September 13, 2001 edition of the '700 Club.'

JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters - the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats--what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact--if, in fact--God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time--calling upon God.

PAT ROBERTSON: Amen

Beliefnet

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Does anyone worship Pat or Jerry? Are they a religion? Or are you just making my point for me?

 

[MiniGirl]

I am a Christian whose best friend is a lesbian. Yep. That's right. Do I agree with the lifestyle she is living? No. Do I hate her and her SO? Nope. Quite the contrary. I love her very much. Do I say she is an abomination? No. Does God? No. According to the Bible, she is not, but her act is. I may not like it or understand why He says it in His word, but He clearly does. I cannot pick and choose the parts of the Bible I like and decide the parts I don't like are wrong. Either I accept the whole Bible or reject it, and I choose to accept it; and just because I feel something is wrong, doesn't mean I hate a whole group of people. In fact, according to the Bible, we are ALL sinners, and no one sin is greater than another's. That means my friend's sexuality is no different than my idleness, so why should I hate her or anyone else for that?

 

[PeterPan09]

Actually, that just proves the point. Robertson and Falwell are prime examples of people who use religion to gain power. They seize on topics to inspire fear in their followers-fear of the "other", whether that other is a homosexual, a pagan, a feminist or anyone that doesn't agree with them. That's not what Jesus said. There's nothing in the Gospels about amassing wealth and power by telling people you'll pray for them-which is pretty much how Pat Robertson continues to build his empire. There's nothing in the Gospels about hitching your church to a political party, which Falwell did during the Reagan years. These guys have selectively chosen sections of Scripture to believe literally, and then used those sections to create "others". They also managed to convince American Christians that they were "victims" of the ACLU and others who wanted to "take GAWD out of society".

One of my teachers said once that the fastest way to gather a following is to give the people an enemy. Pat and Jerry learned that lesson well.