FastPass reaches 100 Million

[All Aboard]

I'm going nuts reading all of these numbers. I hate numbers!

Fact: the presence of FastPass absolutely increasing the wait time in a standby line of given length (number of people) for any attraction.

That's a simple concept. You've got 200 people in line and you are number 200. Without fastpass, you'd be the 200th person to get on the attraction. With FastPass, you are perhaps the 400th person to get on because while you are waiting, 200 fastpass holders have gotten on before you as well as the 199 other people in front of you in the standby line. The standby line does move slower.

That said, I STILL think that efficient use of the FastPass system allows me to enjoy a larger number of attractions in the same park with the same total guests than before the system was put in place. I think so, I don't know so. It just seems that way. I do travel to WDW quite often, and have a decent memory, but I'm not certain.

So, I am a proponent of the FastPass system as currently designed. However, everybody knows my feelings about a premium FastPass system that gives anyone an advantage.

 

[disneychrista]

Funny, I have actually found that the standby line for many of the FP attraction's to be shorter (less wait time) now then before the invention of FP.

 

[pheneix]

>>>There is simply no actual proof out there that guests are standing in line longer or getting to ride fewer attractions.<<<

Yes there is. I have heard of more than one study done with the title "How to deal with lower park capacities" or "How to offset increased wait times."

>>>Not all the time. Now Universal offers a ticket book that gives you between 6 and 10 tickets that you can use at ANY attraction and get to the front of the line.<<<

Yes, it's free all the time. Just because Universal offers a price gouged express pass book doesn't mean that they are taking away the free system.

>>>So it is ok to offer this benefit is your are separating is by class structure? That doesn't seem very fair to me.<<<

There's already a class structure. If you stay off property, you have to drive to WDW or rely on public transportation. If you stay on property, you can leave your car in the lot and take the monorail, boat, bus (which is only slightly better than the alternatives running around Orlando, but still), or even walk. If you stay on property, you get extended theme park time (Early Entry and E-ride nights). You stay off, you fight the masses.

The key difference between all of those examples and Fastpass is that the "others" really aren't effected by those perks, unlike Fastpass. Granted, Fastpass is still offered to the masses, but it is at the expense of others.

BTW, the Disneyland Resort is rushing in an advanced Fastpass system much like Universal's as hard and as fast as they can for their resort guests.

>>>If anything I feel that Disney has the better system because more of their rides are on a dual load system.<<<

Go check out MIB at USF sometime. They have a dual-loading system that puts anything Disney has to shame.

>>>I haven't seen this type of loading style done at Universal. You usually see a group of stand-by, then a small party of Express guests, then another large group of stand-by... etc...<<<

That certainly beats 2 or 3 parties of stand-by line guests, then several dozen Fastpass guests, then 2 or 3 parties of stand-by line, etc...

>>>When we were at the MK the first week of December this year they weren't even using fastpass as the crowds were so low.<<<

Consider yourself blessed. I was there until the 5th, and while crowds were not that low, I did distinctly remember Buzz Lightyear's Fastpass croaking for no apparent reason. About an hour or so later when all of the Fastpasses has ran through the queue the 45 minute wait that the ride had been sitting on all morning dissappeared to an 8 minute line, with the length of the queue remaining the same.

>>>I recall many a May day with an hour plus wait for Pan, pre fastpass.<<<

Pre-fastpass the longest wait I had ever seen for Peter Pan was 30 minutes, and that was Memorial Day weekend. I have never seen an hour plus wait for the ride pre-Fastpass, and I usually rode Peter Pan because of it's moderate 15-20 minute waits. Since Fastpass was introduced I haven't rode Pan since.

 

[KNWVIKING]

... is that prior to FP, SM was impossible. Now,its simple. If you are being "robbed" in the stand-by line, is it my fault-or Disney's, that you choose to not use FP ?

And I don't see how US/IOA handles it any better. Also, US gives thier resort guests unlimited FP which is a great perk. I don't think WDW can do this simply because of the shear number of on-site resort guests. It would generate massive FP lines and totally ruin any stand-by system. I would like to see resort guests get maybe one or two "wildcard" passes that would allow them to hit a ride on the spur of the moment or maybe time is extremely limited. Maybe your last day of a trip,you have a couple hours to spend before heading to the airport, it would be great to zip into a park,hit your favorite ride and get right out.I think that would be great.

 

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by thedscoop
There is simply no actual proof out there that guests are standing in line longer or getting to ride fewer attractions.

You're right Scoop, it's a ridiculous assertion. In fact, if it was causing guests to spend more time in lines, Disney would abandon FP; they don't make money on guests standing in line. Disney has studied this, and it works. People spend less time in line, and more time on attractions, in shops, and in eateries. I think this is a case of claiming that "every silver lining has a cloud."

 

[Experiment626]

Funny, I have actually found that the standby line for many of the FP attraction's to be shorter (less wait time) now then before the invention of FP.

That may be due to the people that will grab a FP for 4 hours later thinking they are gonna use it and don't. Thus kicking out the wait time for the next FP but shortening up the queue for those in the standby.

Maybe a valid compromise is to pace the FP distro so that a FP wait is never more than say 2 hours. So once the wait gets longer than 2 hours the FP machines are shut off for a while. This would definitely keep TT from running out of FP by noon everyday.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Pre-fastpass the longest wait I had ever seen for Peter Pan was 30 minutes

Then you were truely blessed, as that certainly was not the norm during busy times of the year - at least not any of the busy times we have been to the MK. It is a dangerous game to simply take your particular experience during a particular time of year and project it to the entire system. There are many different people who have many different experiences - and they are all right. We should all relate our experiences and we can say what we think they mean, but to make unqulaified statement of fact based upon them can often lead to incorrect generalizations.

 

[HB2K]

Don't have a lot of time, but wanted to quickly respond to this:

I'm sure that severely limiting the number of people who could possibly be waiting in the line had nothing to do with it....

I have a 12 oz coffe mug. One day, the coffee pot holds 1 gallon of coffee. I can still only hold 12 oz of coffee in my mug. The next day, the pot only has 1/2 a gallon. But once again, I can only hold 12 oz of coffee in my mug.

The number of guests who are in MK are irrelevant to the posted standby time of a ride when the queue is configured identically.

You can only fit so many people into a line. It's just magical how during the day, a line can be 45 minutes long, but at night the same line is 15 minutes long.

They must have added more cars or CMs.

Scoop...

People do not attend Disney to bask in the Mexican temple. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice diversion...or add on, or plus to your vacation, but people go to the parks for the attractions.

While fast pass looks nice because you can just skip ahead of one line, what about the extra time you spend waiting in the other three rides waiting for your "turn to cut" comes up?

Is it worth it?

 

[morphi]

I would like to see resort guests get maybe one or two "wildcard" passes that would allow them to hit a ride on the spur of the moment or maybe time is extremely limited.

I agree that some sort of FastPass benefit makes sense for resort guests. The wildcard idea is a good one, but I'm not sure of the logistics of that idea.

Another idea is to give resort guests earlier return times on their FastPass ticket. This would not create a lot of animosity between the classes because non-resort guests could not see that you are a resort guest getting an earlier return time than they just got. (This is unlike the animosity generated when uninformed people in the stand-by line are angered by people passing them by in the FastPass line.) So if 1,000 seats an hour are reserved on Space Mountain for FastPass tickets, 600 could be for resort guests and 400 reserved for non-resort guests. (This assumes 50% of the total park guests are resort guests. If this assumption is wrong, then the 60-40 ratio would change accordingly.)

The main problem with this set-up, is that the return times posted on the clocks at the FastPass distribution kiosks would only apply to one set of the guests. You could have 2 return time clocks (one for resort guests and one for non-resort guests). This would remind people who do not stay on-site of the benefit of staying on-sight. Of course, it might also increase the amount of hurt-feelings due to "unfairness", etc. (Of course so does letting resort guests pass right by non-resort guests to get into Extra Magic hour while the non-resort guests waiting in line cannot.)

 

[pheneix]

>>>Please post me a link to an actual copy of any of these studies.<<<

http://www.afilecabinetinanaheim.com



But if you would like, I can tell you to have a nice conversation with any CM from Big Thunder or Living with the Land, and trust me, their opinions on Fastpass are not that positive...

But believe me, if I ever get a hard copy of anything document that has such a name you'll be first on my PM list.

 

[DisneyKidds]

The number of guests who are in MK are irrelevant to the posted standby time of a ride when the queue is configured identically.

But the number of people who actually get into that identically configured queue is entirely relevant. Most people, at least most people I know, plunk down their $30+ for MVMCP to see the parade and shows. While there may be the same number of people in the MK as there were during the day, there is a much smaller percentage of them actually riding the rides. You need to find a better example if you are going to make your case.

 

[HB2K]

But the number of people who actually get into that identically configured queue is entirely relevant. Most people, at least most people I know, plunk down their $30+ for MVMCP to see the parade and shows. While there may be the same number of people in the MK as there were during the day, there is a much smaller percentage of them actually riding the rides. You need to find a better example if you are going to make your case.

The number of people in the park is irrelevant to this arguement.

Say the line holds 200 people. If there are 200 people in the line during the day, it reaches the "entrance arch" (can't think of a better term).

At night during MVMCP, there are 200 people in the same queue. Yeah there are only 5000 people in the park, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the number of people standing in line is the same as it was during the day...

What's different?

The wait time.

Why?

The fast pass machines have their hoods on.

If you're loading 100% of the riders from one line, it's going to move faster than if you load 90% from the short queue and 10% from the long one.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Say the line holds 200 people. If there are 200 people in the line during the day, it reaches the "entrance arch" (can't think of a better term).

At night during MVMCP, there are 200 people in the same queue.

You are correct - 200 people in a line with FP won't go as quickly as 200 without FP, but MVMCP is still a bad example. Im my experience (we have been to 5 MVMCPs) there just aren't the same number of people in line.

Another assumption you make is that there are always 200 people on line for a FP attraction. I don't know that that is the case. Without FP it may have been 400, and with it might be 200. Who knows. However, just saying that the line starts at point X proves nothing. Most Disney queues are set up so that they can double back several times if necessary, Pan included. If the line doesn't double back at all, it can still be at the arch but might only have 2/3 the people it did earlier when it did double back. I'll venture a guess that when the Pan line is at the arch on a busy day with FP operating it doubles back as many times as possible. When we rode Pan at the last MVMCP we were at it didn't double back at all.

 

[WEDWAY100]

I was originally a proponent of FP. But I changed my car 3 mind.

Think of it this way:

FP works by holding your place in line. It does not increase ride efficiency. If you hold a FP for Space, and you are on the standby line for Buzz, then you are standing in 2 lines at the same time. You are virtually in line for Space, and you are actually in line for Buzz. Moreover, there are times when you can hold 2 FP’s at the same time. If you then go to a standby line for a third attraction, you are virtually standing in three lines at the same time.

Since this was not possible pre-FP, and ride capacity has not increased*, then something has to give. Certainly, the pace of the standby line must be slower than the pace of a normal line pre-FP. So you are forced to use FP or be doomed to lines that flow at a slower pace than the ques were designed for. Using FP means scheduling your day, which I try to avoid when I’m at WDW. Schedules and deadlines are what I deal with at work.

*While ride capacity most certainly has not increased, it may have actually decreased due indirectly to FP. Kevin Yee’s article at miceage described a scenario where it takes 3 CM’s to run FP. But instead of hiring 3 new CM’s, they took 3 from the existing staff at Thunder Mtn at DL. This caused them to only be able to run 3 trains rather than the 4 they could have run pre-FP. That will decrease the ride capacity. In this case, FP is the indirect reason for the decrease. This means that even though FP is “Free”, it’s not really “free”, because we all end up paying somehow.

 

[morphi]

Most Disney queues are set up so that they can double back several times if necessary, Pan included. If the line doesn't double back at all, it can still be at the arch but might only have 2/3 the people it did earlier when it did double back. I'll venture a guess that when the Pan line is at the arch on a busy day with FP operating it doubles back as many times as possible. When we rode Pan at the last MVMCP we were at it didn't double back at all.

To be fair, HB2K's statements were assuming that the line length (judged by its starting and ending point) were the same AND the line configuration was the same. Here's what he wrote:

The line usually starts at the entrance arch (can't think of a better way to describe it). It wraps around the building and up the ramp.

The number of guests who are in MK are irrelevant to the posted standby time of a ride when the queue is configured identically.

If the length and configuration of the line is the same, then the same number of people are in line. That is why the total number of people in the entire park is irrelevant to this point.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Certainly, the pace of the standby line must be slower than the pace of a normal line pre-FP. So you are forced to use FP or be doomed to lines that flow at a slower pace

This is a very accurate statement. It would be interesting to know if the stand by lines today (people wise, not time wise) are shorter, longer, or the same as they were pre-FP. Bottom line is that you really need to use FP, like it or not. If you choose not to use it (for whatever your reasons may be), it is your choice and you must deal with the consequences of that choice. Disney's way of punishing you for not spending money in the shops or on food when you shouldn't be waiting in line I guess .

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by morphi
To be fair, HB2K's statements were assuming that the line length (judged by its starting and ending point) were the same AND the line configuration was the same................. If the length and configuration of the line is the same, then the same number of people are in line. That is why the total number of people in the entire park is irrelevant to this point.

Agreed, with the exact same configuration (starting point, ending point, and number of double backs) you will always have the same number of people in line. I also agree that with that assumption the line with FP will go slower than the line without. However, those assumptions just don't fit the MVMCP example as the line is not configured to double back - or at least has never been when we have gone.

Realistically, what does FP do? What it does is spread the number of riders out during the course of the day. In the end, the same number of people will ride. Pre FP you might have waits of varying amounts throughout the day on a particular ride. With FP the wait is levelized and a bit more consistent. As stated earlier, this will help some and hurt others.

 

[WEDWAY100]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
This is a very accurate statement. It would be interesting to know if the stand by lines today (people wise, not time wise) are shorter, longer, or the same as they were pre-FP.

Thanks. Discussing FP in a logical way makes my head spin. There are too many variables and permutations to make very many accurate statements. I’m not sure what else can be said conclusively, other than perhaps the parks can feel more crowded when a FP holder is virtually in line at an attraction, but also standing around, eating popcorn waiting for his time to come up. Of course at $2.50 per box, that works just fine for Disney.

 

[raidermatt]

There's no doubt that if you compare two days of equal attendance and operating hours, standby lines will be greater on a day when FP is available.

Here's why:

Think about what FP actually does for those who use it. It increases the "attractions per day" that they can experience. By riding more attractions, by definition, the gross waiting time in the lines throughout the park must increase.

Example: Let's say 10,000 guests could get in 100,000 "rides" in a day without FP. Now, let's say 5,000 use FP, allowing them to get in an extra 10,000 rides. Now there are still 10,000 people in the park, but now there are 110,000 rides to account for. The attraction capacities have not changed, so therefore the gross waiting time must be longer. Those that use FP will get benefit greater than any additional time they spend in standby lines. This will come at the expense of those that do not use FP.

But, before deciding that this is a bad thing, we have to look at how much benefit is being received by FP users vs time lost by non-FP users.

If every FP user used their extra time to go on rides, then the net benefit/time loss would be zero. In other words, for every minutes saved by a FP user, non-users would wait one minute longer.

However, not every minute gained by using FP is used to go on other attractions. Yes, more of it is used on attractions than Disney had hoped, but still, there is a certain percentage used to shop, eat, stroll, or just hang out. For this time, the benefit gained by the FP user is not passed on to the non-user. Even for FP users who use their time gained for attractions only, part of their time is still spent traveling to an from the extra attractions. Again, more of their benefit not coming at the expense of non-users.

Further, some of the time gained by FP users is going to be spent on less popular attractions. If any of these attractions are in a walk-on status at the time, or are about to start a less-than capacity show, then the benefit gained by the FP user does not come at the expense of the non-user.

Some FP users will just leave the park since they did what they wanted to do in less time. Some will go to another park, some to their hotel, some home, some even to Universal.

So, what does all this mean? It means the question isn't as simple as "Should FP users benefit at the expense of non-users?". That implies and equal benefit and expense, which is not the case. The question should be more like "Should FP users benefit when non-users bear the expense of 50% of that benefit?" (50% is not based on any hard info...)

Not knowing what that percentage is, I think the benefit of FP does outweigh the negative impact. I know that Disney's motivation was based solely on the hoped for increase in merchandise/food sales, but that aside, I still think FP should stay.

When you couple FP with decreased hours, the loss for non-users is exacerbated, which is a problem, but to me, the solution is to stop decreasing hours, not eliminate FP.

 

[HB2K]

Now as for you Mr. HBK2...if people just go for the big time rides, then what would make Disney anything different than a coaster only park. I just think you are wrong on that characterization. Sure, alot of people go to MGM to ride ToT and RnR, but they also do so much more. The Little Mermaind and Playhouse Disney examples are perfect reasons to have FastPass. Otherwise, it could end up like alot of waits for concert tix. Everyone gets there way to early to get the better seats.

I didn't say rides. I said attractions. I don't recall the Disney Advertisement which shows people staring blankly at the mexican temple for hours on end.

I understand Fast pass is going no where. That's fine. I've adjusted (although I've gotten sick of Disney making me adjust to what they want to implement). I live out of a PDA & Outlook through my professional life. I don't want to be looking at the watch waiting for the minute to tick off so I can go on the pooh ride I got a ticket for an hour earlier.

Using the Pan analogy (since it's the most glaring example I've seen first hand), the stand by time was tripled.

What happens once the premium fast pass is put into effect (and you're kidding yourself if you think it's not going to happen....just follow the $$$). The stand by lines will quadruple?

Where's the benefit?