Fame Academy.........

[Beejayjay]

OK, I know I'm gonna get flak for this, but anyway...

Tracey,

First, dont take this wrong, this is not an individual attack on your taste/choice, truly. I just have a real problem with these kinds of artists.

Will, Gareth, Blue, Westlife, Boyzone ,Five, any of that lot, I'd happily put them against a wall and machine gun them !

My issue is less with the music they do - I can't stand it but would never criticise anyone's choice/taste, each to their own - than with the fact that they arent prepare to take a chance on music that pushes the envelope a bit, music that might be appreciated by an audience other than teenyboppers who buy based as much on what Smash hits tells them is cool/happening as on liking the actual music ! Trolling out twee pop or regurgitating other peoples hits doesnt take a lot of doing.

At least Robbie Williams (who I've seen live with my better half, surprisingly good actually) had the balls to leave Take That and go solo.

And lest you think I'm no-one to talk given the type of music I've expressed a liking for below, I include Nat King Cole, Barbra Steisand, & KD Lang among my list of highly admired singers.

I dislike people - singers, TV personalities, whatever - who become famous for mediocrity, being characters rather than having talent, being pretty rather than doing something well. I'm sure it's a failing in me, it just rankles with me big time !

Ok, enough ranting, I think I've made my point !

PS : Does Jimmy Hill know Will Young has his chin ????

 

[TraceyL]

Each to his/her own - I would never criticise anybody for their taste in music

but
I am not a teeny bopper
I do not read smash hits
I have my own mind and am capable of choosing my own music
I have never bought a record by Gareth, Westlife, Blue, Boyzone or Five

Have you ever seen Will live or listened to any of his original compositions? Is your opinion of him based on what you have listened to or what you think he sounds like? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you have Ready Or Not, Ticket To Love or Alibi Of Love in your CD collection? Maybe you were in Killerton House in July ? Please correct me - maybe I've prejudged you ? If I have then I apologise.

These types of artists'

- Will is NOTHING like the pop star you have listed - since when have Five or Westlife recorded jazz or soul or funk ?????????

I've been introduced to many artists I would never have seen or listened to through the venues I have attended over the last 18 months.... Coldplay, David Gray, Feeder, Avril Lavigne, Bon Jovi, Tom Jones, Sugababes, Craig David & Pink to name but a few. Not saying I liked them all but I have gone and listened and formed my own opinions - not just gone on stereotypes or hearsay.


Personally, having listened to my borther's CD collection which sounds very much as though its the sort of music you're into, I find most of it noisy tuneless shouting - BUT I listened & there are some things I like - early Chili Peppers, Extreme. Just because some people like a strong voice, intelligable lyrics and melody/harmony they can sing along to without scaring the cat doesn't make us gullible teenagers

Again this is not an attack on you, or your choice of music, just the type of person who stereotypes without listening or pigeon holes people - really hacks me off.

 

[Astrid]

Putting my hand up and giving Tracey some support here!

I voted for Will in Pop Idol last year and have his album, I am NOT a fan of the others you have listed BeeJayJay (Gareth, Westlife et al) because, as Tracey says, Will has his own voice (literally) and is trying to move away from the 'boy band' 'teenybopper' grouping.

I wryly smiled when I read that you had seen Robbie Williams in concert and admitted he was 'surprisingly good', would you have admitted to this immediately after he had left Take That?? I expect not, but, like Will, Robbie tried, and successfully, shook off his 'pop' roots and moved into mega-stardom.

Give Will a break huh. He too 'has the balls' (to use one of your quotes) to do his own thing and try and break the mould.

A year from now, who knows, but good luck to him.

PS. Thanks for the update Tracey, I'll be listening out for his single

Astrid x

 

[IAN5150]

(((((Will, Gareth, Blue, Westlife, Boyzone ,Five, any of that lot, I'd happily put them against a wall and machine gun them !)))))

SAY WHAT YOU THINK BEE WHYNOT???!!!!!

 

[Beejayjay]

Yeah, I knew I'd get some flak for that...

Ian,

Hehehehe, yeah, I'm known for saying the PC thing... NOT !

I carry a bottle of Tomato ketchup especially for my many foot in mouth moments.

Tracey,

Ok first my apologies, I dashed off my reply in a hurry and didn't quite say what I meant in the way I meant.

I didn't mean to infer that you are a teenybopping, Smash Hits reading hype victim without the ability to choose what she listens to herself. I can see why it came over that way in hindsight, and I am sorry.

I only lumped Will in with the likes of Gareth, Blue, Boyzone etc, because they are all manufactured 'artistes' in my opinion. If they had the talent they'd like us to believe, they would succeed without the hype in the music press, etc. Hence my mention of Robbie - the guy can sing and write !

You're right, time will tell - if Will's next album, whatever it sounds like, is good, I'll happily admit I was wrong about him. That doesn't mean I'll have been wrong to criticise they way he and others like him came to prominence. It is after all my opinion, I dont expect you to agree necessarily.

I also wasnt trying to suggest you or anyone is a gullible anything because of your taste in music or anything. What I was trying to suggest is it might be a bit gullible to think just because these people get on TV means they have any talent whatsoever.

I dont only listen to the likes of KoRn either, my cd collection ranges from soul to jazz, rock ro rap. There's even abit of classical in there too. I'm a huge Queen fan, Prince, Jacko, George Michael, listen to them all, seen them all live. The common trait ? Talent.

Anyways, I was trying to be a bit of a devil's advocate - it's been so quiet around here lately, I thought I'd try to stir things up a tad... and I guess I succeeeded.

Again, apologies for any offense taken, I really didnt mean for that to be the case.

PS : Tracey - Craig David ? He'd be the first one against the bricks....

 

[TraceyL]

Originally posted by Beejayjay

PS : Tracey - Craig David ? He'd be the first one against the bricks....

..s'ok, I'll form the firing squad with you.

As I said - I listened - didn't say I liked all of them

 

[TraceyL]

While I've got your attention - as a 'real' music fan can I ask a few questions ? You can play devil's advocate all you like- I'm genuinely interested.


Why is it so important for a singer to write his own material ?
Do you expect actors to write their own scripts ? Builders to make their own bricks?

Would you rather hear a band sing a mediocre song they'd written themselves or a good song written by somebody else?

Why do most of these 'real' musicians that you like so much write so any songs that are rude, offensive, miserable or try to make a statement ? What's wrong with music that akes you feel good ?

Is talent that is discovered on a talent show any less worthy that talent that's been festering in a garage for 5 years ? Do singers/musicians need to serve an apprenticeship before they're allowed to succeed?

btw I agree with many of the points you've raised- just leave Will alone But Robbie ? Sing & write ? The guy's an entertainer - not a writer

 

[IAN5150]

(((((Why is it so important for a singer to write his own material ? ))))))
Because a couple of guys came along and changed the way you do things they wrote their own songs,They had the thought of how can you Really mean words your singing when they were wrote by someone else??
The name of the 2 guys John Lennon an Paul Mccartney.......

 

[TraceyL]

So only songs sung by the author are any good ?

 

[Beejayjay]

Oops, sorry, Double post ! Got a bit trigger happy on the old mouse...

 

[Beejayjay]

I see Ian's point but my view on the importance of performers doing there own stuff is slightly different.

An artist can of course do a cover, it's a sign of respect for the original artist and appreciation of what they see as a great song. There is however a big difference between doing the odd cover and continually knocking out covers simply because you can't write your own stuff. It's even worse when you're made to do those covers by your PR and production bodies...

And no, I wouldnt prefer to hear a mediocre song, my point is that a mediocre performer shouldn't be able to make it big because of that mediocrity.

Yes, to me it is a sign of commitment as well as ability that a performer pen there own songs. I appreciate those who do far more than those who don't. Yes, I know, the likes of Sinatra, Crosby and such probably never wrote their own stuff, thats cool but I dont have to like them. (Never got it with Sinatra, an OK voice but what else ?)

Opera singers too, but we are talking about a different level of vocal skill there - I count Maria Callas as one of my all time great female singers.

I dont think I really understand your point about actors not writing the scripts they perform - there performance is the original thing produced. If an actor could derivatively reproduce another's performance, there would never be an audience for repeat productions of the likes of Shakespeare. Each actor places their own interpretation on the script, thats what draws the audiences to return, and not just to plays but to films too. For example, I'm a big fan of Denzel Washington, when I saw him in Training Day I didnt expect to see him play it the same way as he did his part in, say Philadelphia, or Glory. If I had, why bother going ?

On the point about talent shows, no, I've nothing against a performer who gets discovered that way, I do have a problem when the people on the show are chosen as much for how they look and dress as for there ability to perform.

As for the manner of the music produced by some of the bands I like, well, of course I dont find it rude, offensive or depressing. If I did I wouldnt like it. And music has long been a way of an artist making a statement - even if it's just to profess love for another person. It would get a bit dull if all songs expressed the same emotions though, dont you think ?

Eric Clapton's Tears in Heaven is a good example of how music can illicit totally different responses in people - to one person it's a beautiful song of love for his lost child, to another it's a rather sad, unnecessary, public way to make money from a truly devastating event in the performers life. Elton John's version of Candle In The Wind for Diana - a moving tribute to a great figure or mawkish pap dedicated to an undeserving target ?

Does music need to be happy-clappy to make you feel good ? Not in my opinion. Happy, summery, feel-good music has it's place for sure, I'd be an idiot to suggest otherwise (show me someone who doesnt like Walking on Sunshine and I'll show you the world's biggest cynic !)

This is all, of course, dependent on one's opinion.

Ok, I hope I've provided some more fuel for debate.

 

[TraceyL]

My point about actors writing their own scripts.........?

Maybe our view of music is different but I'll try to explain my take on it.......

An author writes a play/screenplay
A songwriter writes a song

Both are, in essence, stories

An actor 'acts' the play
A singer 'sings' the song

Both are performances, is one more 'credible' ( I hate that expression) than the other because of it?

Why does an author's play differ from a singer's song ? Surely by Ian's way of thinking - how can an actor understand lines he has not written himself? How far do you take this self-penned line of thinking ? Does the lead singer of a band have to write the lyrics not the drummer etc?

As you have said Beejayjay, each actor brings his/her own interpretation to the part they play. To me a singer does the same thing, interprets the song their own way. Anybody who churns out the same notes and phrasing verbatim as the original I don't have time for either - no point listening !

In the same way an actor will change personna from part to part, so a good singer does - to a lesser extent.

A good singer can also sing the same song different ways, I've heard 'You & I' (sorry to keep harping back to Will but he's one of the few live performers I can comment on with authority) sung with a backing track, sung accompanied by just an accoustic guitar, with a full gospel choir and with a rocking live band & backing singers at the Marquee - all without losing the emotion of the lyrics (not that they're up to much imho).

fyi Will does not churn out cover after cover, album number one contained 3 covers - unfortnately the powers-that-be decided that those were the songs to be released as singles. The other 10 tracks were originals, most written specifically for or with Will. The new album does contain one cover, plus 8 tracks Will has co-written and 3 written for him.

No, all music does not have to be happy clappy but there is a difference between a sad song, a dour one and one full of insults and 4 letter words

 

[Beejayjay]

Hi Tracey,

Hows things in Wales ? Rather good performance by your boys against Canada, I thought they'd find that a harder task ! Not bad for sheepworriers... Joke, honestly !

I dont want to prolong this too much more, I've enjoyed the debate as I'm sure you have, but we're rapidly approaching an impasse because of our somewhat divergent tastes. However, I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

I did say quite clearly that although I took his point on board, I didnt agree with Ian's assessment of the merits of an artist writing their own stuff.

Also, I didnt infer Will continually turns out covers, this again was a reference to the conveyor belt of manufactured groups/singers usually churned out by the hype machines of the record companies.

You really shouldn't let your defence of Will blur what's written into what you think is being inferred... (That's fighting talk dude.... )

If Will were not as much a product of his publicity as his actual talent, then I'd suggest he wouldn't be told what to release instead of releasing what he actuallty wants to. Like them or not, the likes of KoRn, Slipknot, RHCP's, Chemical Bro's, Massive Attack, Eminem (insert any band here you dislike that hasn't succeeded solely because of being hyped up by the media), you can be pretty much 100% sure they never release stuff simply because their label's PR people think it will sell better.

I'd also lay you a pound to a penny that any one of the artists I mentioned above will be selling discs well after Will has departed the charts.

And to suggest that all the music I like is full of insults and expletives would be as unwarranted as my trying to tell you that you shouldn't listen to Will, or whoever, simply becaue I dislike them. Yes, some of it is combative, insulting, has swearing and rails against the injustices and problems of the world, but equally some of it is emotive and moving. Hell, some of it might even be called romantic !

I'm sure you've heard Under the Bridge by the Chilli Peppers - how about Maria by Green Day ? Somebody Someone or Alone I Break by KoRn ? Weak by Skunk Anansie ? People Equal Sh... oh, no , maybe I shouldn't include a Slipknot track in this part !

I love Prince, he's written some truly beautiful love songs, yet equally he's written some extremely explicit songs (Head springs to mind... no, not an ode to his looks). Would you ignore all his more uplifting, romantic, happy stuff because he also wrote a song in which he describes the physical abuse he suffered at the hands of his father, Papa ? Unfortunately life isn't all sweetness and light.

I do take on board your point about a singer interpreting a song in a similar vein to the way an actor would interpret a part - a point well made. However, I'd still say that the kind of artist I'm referring to - I'll be clear - Gareth, Steps, Take That, Westlife, you get my drift - have done exactly what you've said and produced covers that have been little more than modernised regurgitations of old songs. Did any of those make it without a big PR team and an even bgger budget ?

At the end of the day we have radically different tastes in music, (and television too it would seem ! ) and what we see as unnecessary or offensive or unpleasant. Personally I think thats a good thing, life would be very dull if we all read from the same rulebook.

I truly do mean what I said, I would never criticise anyone's taste in music, films, tv, anything (well, maybe people who still have haircuts with a middle parting or a mullet ! ). A persons likes/dislikes are not something they can necessarily pickand choose, (just like our relatives) they are what they are !

The fun/interest is in trying to understand those likes. Believe me, I know my taste in music is definitely the minority group here - my mum calls it music to cut your wrists by !

I guess you'd tend to agree...

OK, thats my attempt to be brief believe it or not.

I await your reply with interest !

 

[TraceyL]

I think its great that we all have different tastes in music - as you said - life would be sooo boring otherwise. But I never said that all the music you liked is offensive - my turn to pigeon hol e- its that genre that is like that - not all of it. I've already said I like some of the less offensive stuff

My bone of contention is with the way 'people like you' (please don't take that the wrong way) automatically pigeon hole Will in with the likes of Steps, Westlife (ugh) and *shudder* Gareth.

I don't like most of the pop rubbish churned out by these types of over hyped, over produced kids and I most certainly don't waste my time or money buying it. But I don't dismiss it all as worthless - Take That holds a very deay place in my heart from my youth, as do Adam & The Ants & Alison Moyet!!

Will was told to release the covers - it was part of his pop idol contract. The reason nothing has been released for a year is because he wanted to do things his own way - some credit where its due please ?

I don't spend my whole life watching reality TV but as I enjoy music I watched Fame Academy (only to be very disappointed this year lol !!), Pop Idol II is passing me by - I have other things to do with my time.

I've already taken flack (elsewhere) for being a middle of the road, inoffensive, representation of the great british public. I've found it difficult to find a 'real' music fan ( ever been to the R1 message boards) who would put their point across rationally like you without resorting to base insults. I wouldn't want to 'convert' you to a pop tart - honest, I like you all just the way you are


Our footie boys have done pretty well too

Hmmm, how is Alex doing ? Did you know Alistair is releasing a duet with Robin Gibb next month??

 

[Beejayjay]

Hi Tracey,

Yes your footie guys have done extremely well - perhaps we shouldn't be too surprise with Hughesy in charge, I always loved him as a player and he's simply carried on as a manager just where he left of as a player, at the top of his profession. I always felt Arsenal should have grabbed him when Man Utd let him go !

Alistair is another of the bunch from Fame Academy I assume ? That means there was actually someone who the panel thought was worse than Alex ?? Amazing...

Its a shame that you can make the comment you did about 'real music' fans - I guess they sit cosily alongside the people who call themselves real soccer fans because they go to matches and them proceed to beat one another up. Sad...

However, it seems that from the footage on the news last night, even the England players have problems controlling themselves. Man, that was some scrap they got into in the tunnel in Turkey ! Provoked or not - and they definitely were, Alpay should get as much punishement as the England players - they simply cannot do things like that.

I wonder if it's a coincidence that a lot of the England players come from the Arsenal and Man Utd squads who got into that shameful fracas at the end of September. I really hope the FA throw the book at Arsenal for that, no way can that ever be justified - and yes, I am an Arsenal fan.

And the FA must also stand firm on the Rio Ferdinand issue too - no-one's implying he took drugs, but the rules must be applied fairly and equally to all pro's, whether they be England stars or Beazer Homes league part timers. I fear however that as usual the FA will fold and give him some kind of cursory ban, yet another sign to the impressionable young fans/players that you can bend or ignore the rules and get away with it.

Oops, sorry, we were talking about music right ??

The only musical point in your last reply I'll take issue with is about my pigeon-holing Will with the likes of Steps and such - if his next album shows me music that is a step forward from his first effort, I'll gladly stand up and say hey, I misjudged this guy, he has more to offer than an image. Until then, I still think his position as a musical performer is far closer to the aforementioned artists than to the Lennons, Claptons and yes, even KoRn's of this world.

KoRn have a new album out in November too, I'm eagerly awaiting that myself. You might wanna check it out Tracey, they say it's going back to their hard-rocking roots, it wont be as chilled out and experimental as the last one...

I liked Adam and the Ants too - have you seen the guy lately though ? It seems he has some mental health probems, but, wow, I was shocked to see him, he looks like an old man. Such a shame he lost the plot musically, his band had a great sound. I think it all started to go a bit pear-shaped when Prince Charming came out - what was that all about ????

And Alf Moyet has always been a fave of mine, back from her Yazoo days. Great Voice, nice lady.

Right, I suppose I've pontificated long enough again !! I'm off for a mooch round the boards.

Adieu...

 

[TraceyL]

Two final questions before I'm off to finish my packing ..

Where will I be able to listen to some clips of KoRn (old & new) - not familiar with their work myself but they seem to come very highly recommended lol !! Should I keep the kiddies out of earshot ?

and

You have listened to post pop idol Will have you ?

Its been a pleasure discussing this (and the rest) with you but I'm off to sunny Florida to buy Clay Aiken's debut album

 

[Roly Poly]

Have a lovely time Tracey...and don't forget to pack your walkman!!!!!

RP

PS Will has a fab and very unique voice. Pop idol or not, I'd still buy his albums....

 

[Beejayjay]

Wow, I hadn't noticed you are off on your trip so soon Tracey ! And there's me bending your ear (?) when you had much more interesting and important things to do, like deciding just how much money to take for shopping !

We're not off till Boxing days, still just over 10 weeks away... but I'm already looking forward to it big time - it's the first time I'll be doing WDW with Kids - my lady's two boys - so it should be great fun. I'm sure Vonnie and I are far more excited than the kids.

And will I be taking advantage of the post Chrimbo sales ?

Korn - well, you can get an earful of their stuff on their website :

KoRn.com - music

And yes, you might want to want to keep an eye out for where the kids are if you take a listen - nothing really offensive but they do tend to lapse into the vernacular a bit...

Their most recent album, Untouchables, is some of their more approachable stuff - if you want the full rant experience, go for the first disc, KoRn.

I've heard Will's singles, seen him sing a few live on the tube, cant say I've heard his album - I know, you're shocked to hear that....

I've enjoyed our discussion too - as you say, it's a refreshing change to be able to hold a debate with someone that doesnt degenerate into insults !

Well, have a great trip, and think of all us poor souls left behind in Blighty... but not too much !

Bon Voyage !