Explosions and shootings in Paris

[gwynne]

I think this has been a very civil discussion about terrorism, past and present.

 

[robinb]

Although, we are DIScussing the Paris attack...not religion. It's is a banned topic on this board.

Hmmmm ... I wasn't discussing religion. I was discussing terrorism.

 

[declansdad]

Since this thread is about "Explosions and shootings in Paris" maybe all of those who want to talk about terrorists attacks by Christians and/or Americans would be better served to create a new thread devoted to that topic. All of the off topic posts are doing little to further the discussion and issue at hand.

I disagree, I think this is a great discussion that is very telling.

 

[handinpocket]

Yes, it is very telling how ISIS has gotten a strong hold around the world.......

 

[KathyTX]

Since this thread is about "Explosions and shootings in Paris" maybe all of those who want to talk about terrorists attacks by Christians and/or Americans would be better served to create a new thread devoted to that topic. All of the off topic posts are doing little to further the discussion and issue at hand.

Actually, they'd be better served to find a totally different Internet forum, as politics and religion are not appropriate here! We've given a lot of leeway to allow discussion, but looks like I need to do more cleanup of this thread.

I think some posters will soon find that their ability to respond on this thread is gone due to pushing the limits too far. If so, DO NOT start another thread here to continue the discussion. There are lots of places on the WWW that welcome political debate, but this is not one of them.

 

[kandb]

I think it's naive to think that the only terrorist threat in the US is from those who are practice Islam or who are not US citizens. Certainly, ISIS is a threat but other ideologues (both religious and political) are also threats.

How about naming them and who they have killed in the last few years.

 

[pat fan]

How about naming them and who they have killed in the last few years.

I think we should heed Kathy's advice and stick to Paris and leave the other stuff alone You're certainly free to do what you want, I just think some people want to keep pushing things a certain way and it won't end well for us if we play that way

 

[asta]

Actually, they'd be better served to find a totally different Internet forum, as politics and religion are not appropriate here! We've given a lot of leeway to allow discussion, but looks like I need to do more cleanup of this thread.

I think some posters will soon find that their ability to respond on this thread is gone due to,pushing the limits too far. If so, DO NOT start another thread here to continue the discussion. There are lots of places on the WWW that welcome political debate, but this is not one of them.

Thank you, this topic is hard to discuss and leave religion out but I am grateful that you have been patient. I am sorry if my responses fed the fire. Your job is very hard and appreciated.

 

[robinb]

Yes, it is very telling how ISIS has gotten a strong hold around the world.......

You're right. There is some kind of void that ISIS fills for people. If we can determine what causes that void I think we will be farther along in stopping ISIS.

 

[kandb]

You're right. There is some kind of void that ISIS fills for people. If we can determine what causes that void I think we will be farther along in stopping ISIS.

I can understand a void in peoples lives, I just can't understand how barbaric this group is and how many followers they are able to get. It says
something about the "human" race.

 

[robinb]

I can understand a void in peoples lives, I just can't understand how barbaric this group is and how many followers they are able to get. It says
something about the "human" race.

I don't understand it either.

 

[Planogirl]

I don't understand a lot of what I see on this thread. All barbaric attacks are awful and maybe because I watch international news I saw quite a bit of coverage of all of them. None of the previous attacks elsewhere make the Paris attacks less horrendous and I don't get what appears to be attempts to change the topic.

 

[Geoff_M]

I don't understand it either.

Here's a lengthy, but excellent primer on the subject from The Atlantic: What ISIS Really Wants

Our ignorance of the Islamic State is in some ways understandable: It is a hermit kingdom; few have gone there and returned. (Abu Bakr) Baghdadi has spoken on camera only once. But his address, and the Islamic State’s countless other propaganda videos and encyclicals, are online, and the caliphate’s supporters have toiled mightily to make their project knowable. We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger of—and headline player in—the imminent end of the world.

The Islamic State, also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS), follows a distinctive variety of Islam whose beliefs about the path to the Day of Judgment matter to its strategy, and can help the West know its enemy and predict its behavior. Its rise to power is less like the triumph of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (a group whose leaders the Islamic State considers apostates) than like the realization of a dystopian alternate reality in which David Koresh or Jim Jones survived to wield absolute power over not just a few hundred people, but some 8 million.

We have misunderstood the nature of the Islamic State in at least two ways. First, we tend to see jihadism as monolithic, and to apply the logic of al‑Qaeda to an organization that has decisively eclipsed it. The Islamic State supporters I spoke with still refer to Osama bin Laden as “Sheikh Osama,” a title of honor. But jihadism has evolved since al-Qaeda’s heyday, from about 1998 to 2003, and many jihadists disdain the group’s priorities and current leadership.

Bin Laden viewed his terrorism as a prologue to a caliphate he did not expect to see in his lifetime. His organization was flexible, operating as a geographically diffuse network of autonomous cells. The Islamic State, by contrast, requires territory to remain legitimate, and a top-down structure to rule it. (Its bureaucracy is divided into civil and military arms, and its territory into provinces.)

We are misled in a second way, by a well-intentioned but dishonest campaign to deny the Islamic State’s medieval religious nature. Peter Bergen, who produced the first interview with bin Laden in 1997, titled his first book Holy War, Inc. in part to acknowledge bin Laden as a creature of the modern secular world. Bin Laden corporatized terror and franchised it out. He requested specific political concessions, such as the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Saudi Arabia. His foot soldiers navigated the modern world confidently. On Mohamed Atta’s last full day of life, he shopped at Walmart and ate dinner at Pizza Hut.

There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.

The key distinction that Wood points out that unlike bin Laden & Co., that identified themselves as part of a Muslim struggle against the outside World but were also very secular, ISIS sees themselves as a direct character in God's prophetic script. Wood also talks about how the declaration of a "caliphate" was a game-changer that requires a morally obligated allegiance in the minds of many Muslims around the world (though still a small minority). Unlike groups like al-Qaeda or Hezbollah, that can have specific political demands that it wants met if hostilities are to cease, the caliphate only has one purpose... to continually conquer and expand other lands and peoples and expand Islamic law as they define it using "Prophetic methodology". Ironically, if it stops devouring other lands and accepts any borders with other nations, it will be de-legitimized in the eyes of the Muslims that have sworn allegiance to it. Their literal hope is that is will bring about the World's End. In contrast, when the Clerical arm of al-Qaeda started hyping a caliphate or that their efforts might be a harbinger to the appearance of a Messiah, bin Laden told them to "knock it off!"

I'm not offering this as a debate about religion, or to talk about religion, but to offer insight to Robin's "head scratching".

 

[ChloroformSdxn]

For some reason, I found my way to this thread, and I'm just feeling absolutely heartbroken, especially the comments about Syrians refugees. For the record, not one of the terrorist attacks in the past 35 years has been by a refugee. There are more than 6 million Muslims living in France. If 1% of them were jihadists, you would have 60,000 terrorists. Not for lack of trying - why do you think Daesh would planted a forged Syrian passport next to a bomber?

My son is a direct descendant of Holocaust survivors, specifically Auschwitz. His great grandfather lived every day until his death last year with the numbers tattooed on his arm.

In Canada, we had an atrocious record for providing refuge to Jews during the Holocaust. There was one boat, the St Louis, which came over with more than 900 people. They came to Havana, with the intent of settling in the US. They could see the lights of Miami. The USA, at the last minute, decided not to let them in. Many Jewish organizations tried to get them into South American countries, all of whom said no. They tried to get into Canada, and we said, with regards to Jews, "None is too many." They turned around, went back to Europe. More than a quarter of them, including women and children, were killed in concentration camps and burned in the ovens.

If anyone is going to talk about Hitler in this thread, you can't talk about how we failed to strike against him without talking about how we also failed to give his victims safe harbour.

 

[roseaster]

Yes, there are millions of Muslims who do not support ISIS. Some of them even speak out against them. We have no idea how the percentages break down, so I won't even try. I won't even use words like "many" or "most."

The real question is how many Imams in Middle-Eastern countries speak out against this? 90%? 2%? How about leaders in the Middle East? Beyond the public statement that is made, how many are working hard behind the scenes to deal with this threat? I don't have those answers, but until the answer is 90%....99%...we will continue to deal with this.

They do not speak out because they do not want to die nor do they want their families targeted. In countries that practice Sharia law speaking against fundamentalist Muslims can be tantamount to speaking against Islam itself.

It has been discussed and understood that the presence of ISIL is pervasive in the middle east. One does not know who is a member and who may be associated with members. Speaking against ISIL may have grave consequences.

There are moderate Muslims in the middle east. Unfortunately, those who speak out often go missing.

 

[robinb]

I'm not offering this as a debate about religion, or to talk about religion, but to offer insight to Robin's "head scratching".

What I don't understand is how normal people (not psychopaths, etc) are attracted to organizations like ISIS. Then again, I didn't understand who people joined groups like Jim Jones' People's Temple and the Branch Davidians. I think there must be a cult-like aspect to all of them.

 

[wilkeliza]

What I don't understand is how normal people (not psychopaths, etc) are attracted to organizations like ISIS. Then again, I didn't understand who people joined groups like Jim Jones' People's Temple and the Branch Davidians. I think there must be a cult-like aspect to all of them.

I don't know about stable places like the US or France but in war torn countries ISSIS fighters come in and fight against the government. They then tell everyone in the cities you can live under our law or go away but if you choose to go away we will kill you next time we meet. They go into these cities and fix the electricity and provide places to hang out and meet like ice cream parlors. The times did an article about it saying people of theses cities thought sure ISSIS is strict but they are better than what we had.

Now for most people coming from developed countries they are young and very impressionable. They may have good families but they are promissed crazy things (girls are promised a life of honor once their husbands die as martyrs).

The worst is their use of social media. They find people who feel like they have been wronged by the word and then befriend them on social media. They suddenly have someone who believes in them and encourages them and lets them know they have a safe place with them. Very easy for these teens to fall victim to that and then rub away.

 

[WIcruizer]

For the record, not one of the terrorist attacks in the past 35 years has been by a refugee.

One of the terrorists involved in the Paris attacks was a refugee. Or at least hid among the refugees, which is a distinction that really doesn't matter. The result is the same- a terrorist imported into the country.

 

[WIcruizer]

I think there must be a cult-like aspect to all of them.

I would bet the psychology involved is basically the same thing as a cult.

 

[Suger Mag]

You can choose to live your life consumed by fear... worrying about every possible bad thing or person, and react blindly from that fear.. and thus give the terrorists (of all stripes) what they want: the sacrifice of our ideals, the sacrifice of our freedoms, and the sacrifice of the promise of sanctuary on our shores; these precious ideals that our soldiers have fought and died for. Or you can choose to live without the fear.

Bad people happen, you can never prevent them from being born and taking a path that leads them to seek out the pain and misery of others.... be they defective youth who shoot up our schools, defective fanatics driven by religious beliefs, defective individuals (rapists, molesters etc) that prey upon the weak and vulnerable... and as such bad things happen to good people. Do you do nothing? No of course not! Improve screening methods, improve access to mental health, Educate and provide charity and aid to as many of those in the world without such resources as possible. And yes... Punish and identify those bad people swiftly and justly by all means. But blind reactions driven from fear and not facts against an entire group of vulnerable and needy people judged 'guilty by loose association', make no sense and ultimately just make things worse and shames ourselves.

We do not know if the Parisian terrorist WAS or WAS NOT a Syrian refugee at all yet. The investigation is still ongoing but the the info released so far seems to point that the Syrian passport was a duplicate and fake, and that all of the other terrorists were European nationals.