Empty Thread

[dejr_8]

I fail to see the correlation......... are the drugs on the market under achieving or failing standardized test? Is one 3mg pain pill being expected to perform as well as the same 8mg pain pill? I don't understand your point

back to the topic - What do you all think of privatization of the education system?

I guess the no debate is over... The thread was good. Thanks to everyone for the positive and constructive input.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

Woah! Why did you delete your OP and responses?

Really, there's been very little debate. The only debate was over an attempt to compare NCLB to regulations in another industry, and even they weren't very snarky, more informational.

 

[daughtersrus]

1) Do all special needs students get either special consideration (like more time to take the test) or get to exempt the test if they truly cannot perform to the standard level? It seems unfair to me if allowances are not made for special needs students.

My DD is severely delayed and has always been in a self-contained classroom. She is physically and cognitively nowhere near where she should be based on her age but yet she has to participate in testing. As I said in a previous post, she is given a "portfolio" test and graded on the IL Alternate Assessment (IAA). Even with this, she scored at the Entry level which is the lowest category possible.

As a parent, it hurts to get the report from the state saying that your child is not demonstrating knowledge of the subject. It's not like we don't already know this. We know that our DD will never be normal but it's like rubbing salt in the wound to get it in writing every year from the state.

Besides this, the time that it takes the teacher to teach the portfolio (taking pictures of DD next to a seed, taking another picture a day later with an adult's hand helping her to water the seed, taking a third picture of DD next to the sprout...and having to compile pretty little graphs along the way....is taking time away from the students.

I understand that there needs to be some checks and balances but with special ed, there is an IEP with goals to be followed.

 

[mamacatnv]

Sorry I didn't think I was causing a debate. Then again when dealing with a subject as vast and complex as NCLB how does it not sometimes end in a debate, especially when the OP who didn't want a debate throws in something that made no sense as a comparison and the correlation was questioned.

Sorry if I ruined it, I thought this thread was extremely informative

 

[Goofyluver]

I almost pooped a brick when my granddaughter told me this.
I thought she was telling fibs about how her teacher was giving them the answers to their tests and it didn't matter if the kids knew how they came up with the answer or not, the most important vital thing was to put the right answer in the box......NCLB seems to be leaving ALL the kids behind. What a terrible terrible shame.

It's horrible isn't it?

You should be in the meetings when we are going over testing protocol.

It's forced down our throats. We MUST meet AYP. We must have 100% participation. Each child MUST attempt (this is in NM) 5 questions from each subsection. Even though some children don't have a CLUE about what the question is saying, or even how to attempt an answer.

I'll give 2 examples of how horrid it is.

1. I administer the test to small groups of sped students. I had a 6th grade girl, who had Down Syndrome. She did not qualify to take the alternative assessment because she was too "high functioning"...meaning she functioned at about a 1st grade level. I had to practically turn flips to get her to write anything. I finally "hinted" to her that as long as she wrote SOMETHING she would earn points. She made designs in the bubble-in section and copied the question into the answer box in the written section. How horrible to make this little girl take this test, knowing full well that she couldn't begin to understand what was being asked of her.

2. We had a 4th grader at my school who was learning disabled. He was functioning about 3 years behind grade level. His entire class was finished with the test, and he was kept for 2 hours after school was over because they wanted to ensure that he had fulfilled his "quota"...and his test would count towards our participation percentage. Remember...you have to have 100% participation. He was in tears, begging, to please be let out of the test room...and I watched my principal refuse to let him leave.

This is what NCLB has given us.

 

[SplshMtn99]

Only opened the thread because the title & post had been deleted. Works every time.

 

[MM27]

I don't know how other states work, but in NJ students with IEPs are given modifications as well as students with 504s. The students are given modifications like: time and a half to complete the test, questions can be read aloud to them (but passages cannot), frequent breaks as needed, etc.
ESL students are able to use a dictionary that translates to their native language.

I have a big problem with judging a teacher on one test. It was my choice to work in an urban school district. I get students in 4th grade each year that are well below 4th grade level (some of my students are reading at a pre-primer level) I would invite anyone into my classroom to see that real learning is going on on a daily basis. I don't doubt my skills in my profession. Yes, it's hard and sometimes frustrating, but I can see the difference that my being there has on some of these kids and that is what's important.

Based on test scores alone, I may look like I'm not as good a teacher as someone that teaches in an affluent area or even a middle class, suburban area. The people that look at these test scores as the only indicator of student success are missing some important facts. My school had a high number of students absent last week. There have been rumors of the Bloods gang planning initiation shootings and kids stayed home to avoid being in the crossfire. Nobody looks at these things when they analyze test scores. They look at a passing number and if it isn't met, the school fails. Forget that the kid gained two levels in a year, forget all the little successes they've made along the way. The test is what's important.

Why do you think it will go away. Did Obama promise that?

He has said that changes need to be made to it, but I don't believe he said it will go away. He has said though that teacher salaries should be linked to the achievement gains of their students. I don't have a problem with that, IF it is done long term and not based on one test a year.

 

[Holly]

Only opened the thread because the title & post had been deleted. Works every time.

Me too.


I was real curious to see what was in the empty thread.

 

[mamacatnv]

Me too.


I was real curious to see what was in the empty thread.

evidently I offended the original OP and she had a tantrum......

this is a really good converstaion.

 

[mamacatnv]

I don't know how other states work,

I have a question, is NCLB regulated on the state or the federal level?
Seems like different states do different things, is this because NCLB left it up to the individual states and just set the goals?

 

[Cindy B]

I have a big problem with judging a teacher on one test. It was my choice to work in an urban school district. I get students in 4th grade each year that are well below 4th grade level (some of my students are reading at a pre-primer level) I would invite anyone into my classroom to see that real learning is going on on a daily basis. I don't doubt my skills in my profession. Yes, it's hard and sometimes frustrating, but I can see the difference that my being there has on some of these kids and that is what's important.

Based on test scores alone, I may look like I'm not as good a teacher as someone that teaches in an affluent area or even a middle class, suburban area. The people that look at these test scores as the only indicator of student success are missing some important facts. My school had a high number of students absent last week. There have been rumors of the Bloods gang planning initiation shootings and kids stayed home to avoid being in the crossfire. Nobody looks at these things when they analyze test scores. They look at a passing number and if it isn't met, the school fails. Forget that the kid gained two levels in a year, forget all the little successes they've made along the way. The test is what's important.


He has said that changes need to be made to it, but I don't believe he said it will go away. He has said though that teacher salaries should be linked to the achievement gains of their students. I don't have a problem with that, IF it is done long term and not based on one test a year.

I wonder if we are in the same district. I had quite a few kids absent this week as well.

I am new to the profession - in fact I am still student teaching. It is disheartening to see that my kids are judged on one test. They don't see the improvements from a 50% to 100% in Spelling or how many grade levels these children have improved in.

My curriculum is set and scripted to these kids. I have to read question 1, question 2, etc. I'm not getting the freedom and autonomy I have seen in the more successful suburban districts. The scary thing is that these kids don't remember things after they read them. I can pull out a vocab word from 2 weeks ago and they look at me like I'm speaking Chinese. (there are no Chinese speakers!)

I worry about thier grades and their test scores. I'm judged by my cooperating teacher on how many workbook pages they complete instead of they are really "getting" the lessons. There is definetely something wrong with that set up. It's a disservice to the students and quite frankly a disservice to me as a student teacher. I can't differentiate, can't attempt higher level questions, and development of critical thinking if these workbooks are the bane of existence.

Sorry-- just a bit cranky today.

 

[agnes!]

It's horrible isn't it?

You should be in the meetings when we are going over testing protocol.

It's forced down our throats. We MUST meet AYP. We must have 100% participation. Each child MUST attempt (this is in NM) 5 questions from each subsection. Even though some children don't have a CLUE about what the question is saying, or even how to attempt an answer.

I'll give 2 examples of how horrid it is.
........
2. We had a 4th grader at my school who was learning disabled. He was functioning about 3 years behind grade level. His entire class was finished with the test, and he was kept for 2 hours after school was over because they wanted to ensure that he had fulfilled his "quota"...and his test would count towards our participation percentage. Remember...you have to have 100% participation. He was in tears, begging, to please be let out of the test room...and I watched my principal refuse to let him leave.

This is what NCLB has given us.

That poor kid.

I would be sueing that principal for wrongful imprisonment if I were that child's parent or guardian. In loco parentis means just that....acting in place of a parent, not having the power to basically jail a kid after the school-day was over.

agnes!

 

["Got Disney"]

What I hate is how the teachers move everyday from one chapter to chapter without enough time for the kids to absorb anything...take math for instance....one day it is say addition than the next subtraction than division....they have not enough time to stay focused on one thing for more than one day.

There is no time for review and for the kids that are bright and gifted they can move right along....but the kids that have trouble moving that fast get left behind...so the ones that this is intended to help is accually hurting.

The teachers get frustrated because they are forced to teach to the test instead of teaching them to learn.

I have one son that is gifted and moved right along. My other son struggles with math and needs more show and tell on how to do math problems....

I have talked with so many teachers and they hate teaching to the test...they feel they are loosing to many students. Funny that NCLB is leaving so many behind...worse than ever before.

 

[Cindy B]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";28585967]What I hate is how the teachers move everyday from one chapter to chapter without enough time for the kids to absorb anything...take math for instance....one day it is say addition than the next subtraction than division....they have not enough time to stay focused on one thing for more than one day.

There is no time for review and for the kids that are bright and gifted they can move right along....but the kids that have trouble moving that fast get left behind...so the ones that this is intended to help is accually hurting.

QUOTE]

I have been told by my cooperating teacher and others in the school that I have to use only day per lesson in the book. I have to move on -- even if the kids don't really get it.

I am giving them a big disservice to do Lesson 1 on Monday, Lesson 2 on Tuesday Lesson 3, Wednesday... etc.. just to be set for the test on Friday.

 

[DisMN]

I'm terribly disappointed the OP chose to delete her posts......this is an important discussion and I saw nothing wrong with the give and take of information that was going on here. I saw no heated debate, only lots of good info that was helping me to understand what's going on in our schools.

You people who are in education must be frustrated beyond measure.......and the poor students who are growing up in a learning environment that's more about everything BUT learning. How awful. Can this be changed? Can enough people challenge this and get them to stop? And who on earth came up with this concept?? Who are these people??? Were they educators?

 

[Cindy B]

I'm terribly disappointed the OP chose to delete her posts......this is an important discussion and I saw nothing wrong with the give and take of information that was going on here. I saw no heated debate, only lots of good info that was helping me to understand what's going on in our schools.

You people who are in education must be frustrated beyond measure.......and the poor students who are growing up in a learning environment that's more about everything BUT learning. How awful. Can this be changed? Can enough people challenge this and get them to stop? And who on earth came up with this concept?? Who are these people??? Were they educators?

I agree.. I wish the OP kept the posts.

I am frustrated beyond belief. It is getting to me so much that I may not teach after next month. Hopefully it is just my environment and the stress of student teaching, but I am seriously considering bagging this entire career path and using my degrees for something else.

 

["Got Disney"]

I have been told by my cooperating teacher and others in the school that I have to use only day per lesson in the book. I have to move on -- even if the kids don't really get it.

I am giving them a big disservice to do Lesson 1 on Monday, Lesson 2 on Tuesday Lesson 3, Wednesday... etc.. just to be set for the test on Friday.

Yes and another sorry thing once they get into middle school and beyond is the teachers have so many students that they have no time to correct homework...only put a check mark on it to show it is done ...think about it.... if they have at least 130 students..could you imagine going home and correcting 130 pages evey day

so there for they don't really know if the work is correct and because they need to move on to the next page there is no time to review....

I however with my one sons math...have the teacher give me each chapters answers so I can make sure he is getting them correct. He is in pre Algebra. If they are wrong I circle them and he goes back to see where he went wrong.

I could not imagine being one of the parents that just sits back and leaves it up to the teacher and the child....if i did that my son would fail math for sure. So I stay involved.

 

[Cindy B]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";28586505]Yes and another sorry thing once they get into middle school and beyond is the teachers have so many students that they have no time to correct homework...only put a check mark on it to show it is done ...think about it.... if they have at least 130 students..could you imagine going home and correcting 130 pages evey day


I could not imagine being one of the parents that just sits back and leaves it up to the teacher and the child....if i did that my son would fail math for sure. So I stay involved.[/QUOTE]

Both of my kids are in middle school. The class goes over homework together either using an overhead or a smart board. However, it is up to the kids to either ask questions or make sure they understand the concept.

At quiz/test time it is either feast or famine.

I have many parents that just sit back and let the teacher do it. It is hard and frustrating.

 

[MM27]

I have a question, is NCLB regulated on the state or the federal level?
Seems like different states do different things, is this because NCLB left it up to the individual states and just set the goals?

While NCLB is a federal initiative, every state has its own assessment. When I was in grad school one of my professors discussed with us how some states look like they are making wonderful progress because their test scores are so high, but if those same kids were given the assessments that other states use, they would not pass.

I wonder if we are in the same district. I had quite a few kids absent this week as well.

My curriculum is set and scripted to these kids.

I teach in north Jersey. There were threats around Halloween that the Bloods were out to shoot girls. A girl in my school announced that she would not be in school the next day because her brother, who is a gang member, told her that girls wouldn't be safe if they were out on the street. There were also mass emails sent out via the board office to inform us of the expected problems that week.

Does your district by any chance use Success for All? Mine doesn't, but my sister is also a teacher (she's in an Abbott district) and they use the Success for All program. Talk about having no freedom in the classroom

Don't let your current situation get you down. First of all, it's very hard when it's not "your classroom". It is frustrating at times, but there are moments that you will realize why you do what you do.

I had a student on Wednesday come up to me at lunch and say, "you know, you're a really good math teacher, nice too" This child is one of my lowest students. He scored a 126 on the NJASK last year in math (200 is proficient) and told me the first week of school that he hates math. His mother even told me that when I met her. He is now making little successes. At this point in the year, with testing in May, I doubt that he will get to the proficient level, but I can see something changing in him as he is learning new skills. When this kid pumped his fist in the air and yelled out "yes" on Wednesday in my class because he was able to do a subtraction problem correct on the board, that is what reminds me of why I do what I do.


[QUOTE="Got Disney";28585967]What I hate is how the teachers move everyday from one chapter to chapter without enough time for the kids to absorb anything...take math for instance....one day it is say addition than the next subtraction than division....they have not enough time to stay focused on one thing for more than one day.

There is no time for review and for the kids that are bright and gifted they can move right along....but the kids that have trouble moving that fast get left behind...so the ones that this is intended to help is accually hurting.

The teachers get frustrated because they are forced to teach to the test instead of teaching them to learn.

I have one son that is gifted and moved right along. My other son struggles with math and needs more show and tell on how to do math problems....

I have talked with so many teachers and they hate teaching to the test...they feel they are loosing to many students. Funny that NCLB is leaving so many behind...worse than ever before.[/QUOTE]

My district uses Everyday Math. I have actually gotten into arguements with our consultant because she is very strict about following a pacing guide to a tee. I refuse to move on if my students don't get something. The EDM program is a spiral program, meaning the kids will see the skills again, but if you don't know something the first time, you're not going to know it the second or third time either. My goal is not to finish the book, my goal is to make sure my students know what they are doing. We are getting ready to do multi-digit multiplication and division. The problem is, many of my students don't know their basic facts. I take time out of math to practice with them, even though that is "forbidden". I guess that makes me a lousy teacher.

 

[xoprincessmomxo]

empty

Why would you start a thread, just to erase it because you don't like the responses?