Elephant in the room....

[robinb]

Who remembers the "lottery" for Christmas week? Gave everyone a fair shot for a bit. And then everyone registered - if they 'won', they auctioned the room to the highest bidder.

I remember! We actually bought into BWV when they got rid of the lottery since we loved Christmas week there.

 

[Bearval]

Booking several days before your trip and walking the reservation is indeed circumventing the system, but booking at 11 or 7 months out for 7 days and then adding a day each day is not circumventing the system and everyone's suggestions so far would also prevent that.

We as members wouldn’t make the rules. I am sure IF and when DVD does decide it needs to address walking they will not punish people adding on days to extend a vacation since walking would show a different booking pattern such as adding days to the end and dropping days off in the beginning.

 

[Chuck S]

I remember the lottery. Never used it, as we didn't have to travel during the peak time frames, but I do remember it.

Anyone remember the herb garden at OKW, located where Olivia's outside dining patio is today? The chefs literally had garden fresh herbs and seasonings to cook with.

 

[ParkHoppers]

So Disney decides booking a room you have no intention of keeping for early FP’s as wrong and takes away FP after the reservations are cancelled. Exactly how is walking any different as people are booking days they have no intention of keeping as a way to circumvent the 11 month booking rule? Now that Disney has closed the FP loophole how will they explain not closing the 11 month loophole. Those worried about the changes being worst than walking don’t seem to understand or frankly want to admit that some people playing by the rules are being shut out at their 11 month window by walkers. What’s worse than that?

 

[Chuck S]

So Disney decides booking a room you have no intention of keeping for early FP’s as wrong and takes away FP after the reservations are cancelled. Exactly how is walking any different as people are booking days they have no intention of keeping as a way to circumvent the 11 month booking rule? Now that Disney has closed the FP loophole how will they explain not closing the 11 month loophole. Those worried about the changes being worst than walking don’t seem to understand that some people playing by the rules are being shut out at their 11 month window by walkers. What’s worse than that?

And just how would you go about it, without it being detrimental to everyone?

 

[ParkHoppers]

And just how would you go about it, without it being detrimental to everyone?

Not sure what the fix is but let’s not pretend people were forced to circumvent the 11 month rule. They chose to not only cheat the rule but other DVC members in the process. If people didn’t try to cheat in the first place there would be no need for a fix. Now it’s up to people like me who don’t cheat to come up with a fix that doesn’t hurt anyone? How about people not cheat and make a mess of the booking system. This problem was created by walkers and they have to live with that.The fix will be whatever it has to be. Tough cookies. This problem did not have to happen. I,m sure the walkers will just blame Disney after the fix as they were made to cheat so it’s not their fault. Good luck with that.

 

[Chuck S]

Not sure what the fix is but let’s not pretend people were forced to circumvent the 11 month rule.

Well, they could reimpose the holiday lottery...but that also circumvents the 11 month window, and opens resort booking to the winners regardless of home resort. How would you feel if an owner from HHI snapped up a hard to get reservation at your home resort at 11 months because of the lottery system?

 

[ParkHoppers]

Well, they could reimpose the holiday lottery...but that also circumvents the 11 month window, and opens resort booking to the winners regardless of home resort. How would you feel if an owner from HHI snapped up a hard to get reservation at your home resort at 11 months because of the lottery system?

Well it looks liked the stopped that lottery. Maybe they figured it wasn’t a good rule. But that rule was still at the 11 month window not early booking. I just find it curious that the same walkers who know they have a negative effect on other members by walking are now so concerned about members being hurt by the new walking fix. That doesn’t quite add up to me.

 

[Bing Showei]

Not sure what the fix is but let’s not pretend people were forced to circumvent the 11 month rule. They chose to not only cheat the rule but other DVC members in the process. If people didn’t try to cheat in the first place there would be no need for a fix. Now it’s up to people like me who don’t cheat to come up with a fix that doesn’t hurt anyone? How about people not cheat and make a mess of the booking system. This problem was created by walkers and they have to live with that.The fix will be whatever it has to be. Tough cookies. This problem did not have to happen. I,m sure the walkers will just blame Disney after the fix as they were made to cheat so it’s not their fault. Good luck with that.

Suppose they go back to system of booking the last day of your reservation. Everyone will be "new-old-walking" the very first day of their reservation and adding each day. Would you wait until the very last day of your vacation to book your reservation out of principle, and then complain about people circumventing the rules? Or will you be booking every day of your reservation, doing what the rules allow? I'm honestly asking, because if you stick to your principled stance of not going against the spirit of the rules, you'll likely be frustrated with that situation as well.

Walking sucks. I think people do it unnecessarily, but I understand why people do it. Disney doesn't seem to care. CMs used to encourage it. The new online booking tool has certainly made it easier to do. Not sure the value of calling everyone who does it now a cheater when it's just a reality of operating within the current booking system.

 

[Chuck S]

Well it looks liked the stopped that lottery. Maybe they figured it wasn’t a good rule. But that rule was still at the 11 month window not early booking. I just find it curious that the same walkers who know they have a negative effect on other members by walking are now so concerned about members being hurt by the new walking fix. That doesn’t quite add up to me.

It is early booking, if those that are chosen in the lottery are not booking at their home resorts at 11 months out. They would not be allowed to book until 7 months without the lottery. Those chosen in the lottery, even those that only owned offsite, were allowed to book vacations at ANY resort at the 11 month window. And it isn't "just" walkers that don't see a good solution. I never walk, and I've never had problems. I own at a large resort, that isn't the most popular, and I have never traveled during a prime travel week. That doesn't mean I like the concept of walking, nor does it mean that I'd be in favor of more restrictions on the possible use of my points.

 

[bwvBound]

Lets just try a little more of the honest, tough love with our advice.

What if we, as a community, started telling folks who complain when they can't get their 1st choice studio: "Ah, so sorry to hear that. For your dates I see an available 1BR at that same resort. You might want to book that." Perhaps we should keep reinforcing the idea of flexibility in dates, location and unit size.

Thinking way back (~2000, 2001), I had to learn this lesson with our first timeshare, a non-DVC point system. While we had purchased enough points to book a full studio week in high season ... we didn't know that not all resort locations offer studio units; some had only 1BR units, some had 1BR/2BR/3BR, etc. It was uncomfortable booking the 1BR for the first time ... maybe the first several times. On one hand, I worried for point budgeting and on the other hand I felt I was misusing the system by booking a 1BR unit for only 2 people (was I 'taking it away' from a family that needed that size??). Several long-time owners coached me through my hangups. One related how much she and her husband enjoyed the 1BR unit as it allowed the early bird to be up and about while allowing the mate to sleep in. Another put it more bluntly: "Suck it up, buttercup. Book whatever is available for your location and dates!" In short time, I grew to embrace the 1BR unit (for 2 of us) and quite worrying. I carried that mindset into our DVC purchase as well: 1BRs are a good choice for the 2 of us.

I'm all onboard with showing some tough love with the newbies.

 

[Marionnette]

So Disney decides booking a room you have no intention of keeping for early FP’s as wrong and takes away FP after the reservations are cancelled. Exactly how is walking any different as people are booking days they have no intention of keeping as a way to circumvent the 11 month booking rule? Now that Disney has closed the FP loophole how will they explain not closing the 11 month loophole. Those worried about the changes being worst than walking don’t seem to understand or frankly want to admit that some people playing by the rules are being shut out at their 11 month window by walkers. What’s worse than that?

I don't believe that Disney closed the FP loophole because it was unfair. I believe that it was closed for monetary reasons. They sell extra FPs and a 90-day booking window to CL guests for a minimum of 3 days @$50/day. It's a trial offer that seems to be rather well-received. They could very well be preparing to do something similar for all guests. They can't have people booking fake reservations in order to get an added FP advantage if they intend to charge people for that advantage. It's all about the Benjamins and not really about fairness.

OTOH, there's nothing to be gained by pissing off a lot of members because a few members walk reservations. Taking a cash room out of inventory means there's one less room for CRO to sell and the guest may decide to stay offsite. Taking a DVC villa out of inventory for a few nights just means that it gets filled by some other DVC owner later. If it's being walked, it's a high-demand villa. Someone is going to take it. No money is lost when a walker makes a reservation and then moves it forward. And if there's no money being lost, DVC is not likely to make changes. And they are even less likely to make changes when it benefits a few while hurting many.

I'm not a fan of walking. But I also realize that the cure can be worse than the curse. At least with the way things are now, I know enough to follow along behind the walkers and pick up their crumbs if I want a BWV Standard View studio in December. With some of the other proposed solutions, I won't be able to book 10 consecutive nights in any villa, or shift my reservation by one or two nights if decent airfare comes up for those dates, or I would have to call and sit on hold with MS while I try to deal with clients at work. Show me a solution that doesn't penalize members who have done nothing wrong and I'll be happy to support it. However, I'm not in favor of drastic changes to the way reservations are made because a vocal few have their hackles up over the actions of a small number of people.

 

[ParkHoppers]

Suppose they go back to system of booking the last day of your reservation. Everyone will be "new-old-walking" the very first day of their reservation and adding each day. Would you wait until the very last day of your vacation to book your reservation out of principle, and then complain about people circumventing the rules? Or will you be booking every day of your reservation, doing what the rules allow? I'm honestly asking, because if you stick to your principled stance of not going against the spirit of the rules, you'll likely be frustrated with that situation as well.

Walking sucks. I think people do it unnecessarily, but I understand why people do it. Disney doesn't seem to care. CMs used to encourage it. The new online booking tool has certainly made it easier to do. Not sure the value of calling everyone who does it now a cheater when it's just a reality of operating within the current booking system.

Circumventing the rules is a form of cheating. Members waiting until their 11 month window are being negatively effected by walkers. Are they not? As I asked above please tell me how walking is any different than booking a room for early FP booking and then canceling said room just to keep FPs. Disney just put a stop to that because they knew it wasn’t right. Or maybe it’s over money but they still put a stop to people circumventing a rule. Walking is no different even if they haven’t put in a fix yet. There are two sides to the coin. Seems most here only want one side of the coin discused. That wouldn’t be objective. Both sides need a voice. Those walking and those paying the consequences of walking. Way to much coddling each other in here over walking. Those saying walking is fair because everyone has the option to walk are just using basic physiological tricks to make themselves feel better. It’s so transparent. Let’s just call walking what it is.....a form of cheating.....cheating that has not been enforced.......YET.

 

[ParkHoppers]

I don't believe that Disney closed the FP loophole because it was unfair. I believe that it was closed for monetary reasons. They sell extra FPs and a 90-day booking window to CL guests for a minimum of 3 days @$50/day. It's a trial offer that seems to be rather well-received. They could very well be preparing to do something similar for all guests. They can't have people booking fake reservations in order to get an added FP advantage if they intend to charge people for that advantage. It's all about the Benjamins and not really about fairness.

OTOH, there's nothing to be gained by pissing off a lot of members because a few members walk reservations. Taking a cash room out of inventory means there's one less room for CRO to sell and the guest may decide to stay offsite. Taking a DVC villa out of inventory for a few nights just means that it gets filled by some other DVC owner later. If it's being walked, it's a high-demand villa. Someone is going to take it. No money is lost when a walker makes a reservation and then moves it forward. And if there's no money being lost, DVC is not likely to make changes. And they are even less likely to make changes when it benefits a few while hurting many.

I'm not a fan of walking. But I also realize that the cure can be worse than the curse. At least with the way things are now, I know enough to follow along behind the walkers and pick up their crumbs if I want a BWV Standard View studio in December. With some of the other proposed solutions, I won't be able to book 10 consecutive nights in any villa, or shift my reservation by one or two nights if decent airfare comes up for those dates, or I would have to call and sit on hold with MS while I try to deal with clients at work. Show me a solution that doesn't penalize members who have done nothing wrong and I'll be happy to support it. However, I'm not in favor of drastic changes to the way reservations are made because a vocal few have their hackles up over the actions of a small number of people.

So I,m pissing people off because I feel walking is a form of cheating the 11 month rule? How is it not? IMO one of the reasons walking has gotten more and more popular is because people not willing to call it what it was from early on. I have been involved in online forums a long time and understand the virtual tree house and not disrupting the herd but that is not a good reason not to speak the truth.

As far as the actions of a small number of people walking not so sure the number is still small as you claim. As far as a vocal few didn’t that just happen with the 2020 Point relocation? Hmmmmm. Guess it depends on the subject for some. I’ve also noticed people saying they are OK with walking but also OK with it being stopped. Now why would someone hedge their bets if they honestly thought they were doing no wrong with walking. Another head scratcher

 

[Chuck S]

So I,m pissing people off because I feel walking is a form of cheating the 11 month rule? How is it not? IMO one of the reasons walking has gotten more and more popular is because people not willing to call it what it was from early on. I have been involved in online forums a long time and understand the virtual tree house and not disrupting the herd but that is not a good reason not to speak the truth.

As far as the actions of a small number of people walking not so sure the number is still small as you claim. As far as a vocal few didn’t that just happen with the 2020 Point relocation? Hmmmmm. Guess it depends on the subject for some. I’ve also noticed people saying they are OK with walking buy also OK with it being stopped. Now why would someone hedge their bets if they honestly thought they were doing no wrong with walking. Another head scratcher

But why should DVC even care? Compared to the overall membership, it is a small percentage of the membership that is negatively impacted by walking. No system is perfect, and why impose restrictions that could negatively impact the entire membership? And, in reality, there is ALREADY a perfectly workable solution...sell your current membership and buy a set guaranteed week at a newer resort. Voila, you are no longer affected by other members walking for the week you want.

 

[ParkHoppers]

But why should DVC even care? Compared to the overall membership, it is a small percentage of the membership that is negatively impacted by walking. No system is perfect, and why impose restrictions that could negatively impact the entire membership? And, in reality, there is ALREADY a perfectly workable solution...sell your current membership and buy a set guaranteed week at a newer resort. Voila, you are no longer affected by other members walking for the week you want.

Congrats you just used the same tactic Ms Chang used on a member here asking to buy him out. Why did she ask to buy him out? To hopefully silence him and make him and his views go away. And why actually do you think ANY number of members being hurt by walking is OK? Why should people being negatively effected by walkers stay silent? So people don’t have to look at the things they do. Wow. Sometimes the truth has to hurt. That is just the way it is in many aspects of life. I don’t think living in a bubble where people only say things you agree with is a very objective place to live. People can choose the bubble but I shouldn’t be made to feel I need to say what people want to hear or leave. That’s sad. I,ll end on your original question. “but why should DVC even care?” Because they supposedly are there to look out for members needs. Because they just stopped others circumventing the FP rule. Because people are breaking the rules or at least the spirit of the rule.

 

[Bing Showei]

So I,m pissing people off because I feel walking is a form of cheating the 11 month rule? How is it not? IMO one of the reasons walking has gotten more and more popular is because people not willing to call it what it was from early on. I have been involved in online forums a long time and understand the virtual tree house and not disrupting the herd but that is not a good reason not to speak the truth.

As far as the actions of a small number of people walking not so sure the number is still small as you claim. As far as a vocal few didn’t that just happen with the 2020 Point relocation? Hmmmmm. Guess it depends on the subject for some. I’ve also noticed people saying they are OK with walking buy also OK with it being stopped. Now why would someone hedge their bets if they honestly thought they were doing no wrong with walking. Another head scratcher

Reread what Marionette wrote. She’s talking about how Disney’s perspective is “there’s nothing gained by pissing off a lot of members.” Disney has no dog in this fight. They just leave it to the peasants to duke it out.

You can stand on the sidelines and bemoan the system, calling people names, deflecting any need to offer a solution, but doing so only minimizes your position to someone who’s just complaining from atop their high horse.

Feel free to complain, but unless you are offering any meaningful ideas on how to address this, your “truth hurts” philosophy is nothing more than a very public venting session.

 

[Marionnette]

So I,m pissing people off because I feel walking is a form of cheating the 11 month rule? How is it not? IMO one of the reasons walking has gotten more and more popular is because people not willing to call it what it was from early on. I have been involved in online forums a long time and understand the virtual tree house and not disrupting the herd but that is not a good reason not to speak the truth.

As far as the actions of a small number of people walking not so sure the number is still small as you claim. As far as a vocal few didn’t that just happen with the 2020 Point relocation? Hmmmmm. Guess it depends on the subject for some. I’ve also noticed people saying they are OK with walking buy also OK with it being stopped. Now why would someone hedge their bets if they honestly thought they were doing no wrong with walking. Another head scratcher

I would dare say that only a minute portion of the membership knows you. Nor do they know about your proposed solutions. So I doubt that you would be pissing anyone off. I just don't envision DVC pissing off a large portion of their members by imposing restrictions on the way everyone books their reservations because some people consider walking to be a widespread problem.

(Please don't even attempt to bring the 2020 reallocation debacle into this discussion because one has nothing to do with the other.)

I am okay with walking because it works within the parameters under which we all make reservations. I own at BWV, as well as two their resorts. I wanted to book a std. view studio for the early part of December. I began watching the availability in late November and followed it thru the end of December. EVERY MORNING, THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE STD. VIEW STUDIO AVAILABLE TO BE BOOKED AT 8:00 EST....EVERY...MORNING! THRU ALL OF DECEMBER!!!...Every morning, I had the same shot at booking a Std. View studio at 11 months as everyone else. If I didn't get it, then it was because I was slower than the other guy. It wasn't because some walker snagged it first. Any walkers already had their villa reserved. I accept that this is how a point-based system works. Someone wins. Everyone else loses. All of the draconian measures to remedy walking is not going to change the fact that more people want those rooms than there are rooms available. As far as I see, it's not a walking problem so much as it is an availability problem.

 

[Bearval]

If a lot more members start walking their reservations as soon as their UY allows DVD will put rules in place. Can you imagine how many phone calls they will start receiving when people start calling saying they cannot book their stay at 11 months because so many people are walking several months out?

 

[Chuck S]

Congrats you just used the same tactic Ms Chang used on a member here asking to buy him out. Why did she ask to buy him out? To hopefully silence him and make him and his views go away. And why actually do you think ANY number of members being hurt by walking is OK? Why should people being negatively effected by walkers stay silent? So people don’t have to look at the things they do. Wow. Sometimes the truth has to hurt. That is just the way it is in many aspects of life. I don’t think living in a bubble where people only say things you agree with is a very objective place to live. People can choose the bubble but I shouldn’t be made to feel I need to say what people want to hear or leave. That’s sad. I,ll end on your original question. “but why should DVC even care?” Because they supposedly are there to look out for members needs. Because they just stopped others circumventing the FP rule. Because people are breaking the rules or t least the spirit of the rule.

1) It was DISNEY WORLD RESORTS not DVC that has stated they will cancel FP+ when reservation is cancelled. DVC reservations do happen to also fall under FP+ rules, but there is nothing that says Disney even has to let DVC use FP+...this is negotiated between the two entities.
2) DVC and Disney are two very different entities, legally and also in practical terms.
3) Rules are made to benefit the majority of membership, not the minority of membership...would you be OK if the people with 10000 point or more, a minority of the membership, could book at 12 months out instead of 11...or would you be complaining?
4) The negative impact of walking IS on the minority of members, those trying to book the most popular reservation dates, in the most popular rooms (studios). No matter what, there would never be enough studios for those dates to satisfy everyone that wants them.
5) Walking violates none of the current rules. DVC management has nothing to gain, and Disney has nothing to gain by trying to do anything about the problem...the rooms will be filled with members...it doesn't matter to Disney or DVC which particular member is in the room.
6) And like it or not, purchasing a fixed week IS a solution to the problem. That is likely the Disney/DVC answer to limited availability for none fixed week members...reservations are limited by availability, and are subject to DVC booking rules. Period.
7) Prior to the current check-in day + 7 booking method, it was far more difficult for most members to book high demand periods, most would end up with a hole somewhere in their reservation. Most members prefer knowing at the time of booking if they have the reservation, and whether they will be able to add on to complete the reservation, so they can make flight arrangements, and so forth.