Editing

[bumbershoot]

DVC owners ARE getting their points back.

Not if they were about to expire. Not if they are expiring before things open back up.

You are out x dollars. The owner who can't use or rebook those points is out the cost of the points and the dues they paid AND they can't take a vacation.

You feel like you're the only one losing out. You're not. Everyone is.

For the owners to keep someone's money while getting their points back is so unethical.

You don't even know if that's happening. You're worrying (and worrying people here) over something you don't know is real.

They need to step up customer service and talk to people - not shut their phone lines down.

They are a small company. Have you done customer service? Have you had peope screaming at you? I remember having someone screaming at me that their mother's day present was going to be late...and this was a month after my 55 year old mother had DIED. Those conversations are vile. Don't do that.

Undercovertourist had to send out an email the other day saying "We want to help you but can’t if our team members quit due to exhaustion or abuse." You know that that means people are abusing their reps. If they are abusing the reps over a ticket purchase, you know they are doing the same if they rented a DVC reservation.

They aren't ignoring you. They are helping people who got on the phone before you or who have reservations before you.

And they are in an impossible position depending on circumstances.

David’s should at least be refunding their commission of $24% and not profiting from this.

You don't think they should be paid for their time? For their website and phone lines and reps and the spark of imagination for creating the company?

I think DVC should relax the banking rules as a gesture of goodwill.

Remember that timeshares are governed by laws, and they will run into legal limits for what they might be able to do.

Guess I won't be renting DVC any time soon. or ever. This just sucks.

When renting you're agreeing to a "no refunds no matter what" policy, so I imagine you wouldn't have rented to begin with, yes?

A lawyer for that likely won't cost anywhere near $5,600, because the owners will probably settle as soon as they see you aren't just passively walking away.

Hmm. Now imagine that your owner is a lawyer, too.

What does the contract say? What did you agree to when renting?


You guys are making situations up in your head that haven't happened. They might not be happening. Just...wait. See what can happen.



(The absolute worst customer service moments I ever had with customers were on holidays when people were at home and were going stir-crazy...I really really feel for the reps on the phones right now...

Guys, don't be THOSE people. I am STILL telling stories of the evil people I talked to (and I could almost always help, and help well, but people were loaded for bear before they got me on the phone), and I worked at amazon from 1999-2002. Do you really want to be that sort of story 20 years from now?)

 

[DisneyWishes14]

That is horrible. This has taught me never to rent from DVC owners.

$5,600 is a lot of money and not something to passively walk away from because you're told, "No, sorry." If David's won't resolve this to your satisfaction within a reasonable amount of time (weeks, not months), then you should dispute the charge via your credit card. If that doesn't work, you should get a lawyer and sue the DVC owner for contract violation. Really. A lawyer for that likely won't cost anywhere near $5,600, because the owners will probably settle as soon as they see you aren't just passively walking away. Consult with an attorney, and don't wait months to do so.

How is the DVC owner violating the contract?

 

[Mainsail Minnie]

How is the DVC owner violating the contract?

By not providing the promised goods.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The savings of DVC rental for a non-owner has always been in exchange for risk. Cannot change, final transaction, etc. That has always been part of the equation.

That renters have disregarded that risk until now does not put the owner in violation of the contract.

The contract only permits refund if accommodation is not available via omission or fault of the owner. None of this is the owner's fault.

 

[Jadyreen1282]

When renting you're agreeing to a "no refunds no matter what" policy, so I imagine you wouldn't have rented to begin with, yes?

More likely not since I haven't had to up to this point. I don't like "no refund" policies on non-deliverable goods. Makes no sense to me to risk it when I can take the same vacation for a little more money and have Disney refund me right away with their thanks when Armageddon comes.

 

[fsjking]

That is horrible. This has taught me never to rent from DVC owners.

$5,600 is a lot of money and not something to passively walk away from because you're told, "No, sorry." If David's won't resolve this to your satisfaction within a reasonable amount of time (weeks, not months), then you should dispute the charge via your credit card. If that doesn't work, you should get a lawyer and sue the DVC owner for contract violation. Really. A lawyer for that likely won't cost anywhere near $5,600, because the owners will probably settle as soon as they see you aren't just passively walking away. Consult with an attorney, and don't wait months to do so.

Except you don't have a contract with the owner. You have one with the third party site. You can go after them, but I don't know they survive this as a company if this goes on much longer. But, you have no legal recourse against the owner. They didn't make a deal with you.


On another note, the sample agreement on David's says this:

"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $0000.00 US Dollars."

Not sure if that's what renters actually sign, but theres enough ambiguity in choice of wording to make a legal case for refund. I know an owner would read that as ironclad as they didn't do anything directly wrong, but a lawyer for a renter could make a case. DVC chose to shut down. They were not ordered to. Owners are shareholders in DVC. I doubt any of these actually ever go to court. I think david's folds before we get to that point, but all most will have to do is convince their CC company. That won't take a lot.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Owners are not voting shareholders.

 

[DisneyWishes14]

By not providing the promised goods.

The renter did not sign a contract with the owner. They signed a contract with a third-party.

 

[cobright]

Yes, and that’s a large part of the reason why DVC rentals have traditionally been non-refundable. That’s not something that started with the rental agencies. Depending on factors like use year, banking status and booking availability, even returned points may be functionally unusable.

The part of this that bugs me is that, while things are pretty plastic right now, things will settle down and I have every faith that Disney will do right by their DVC members. Whatever that takes to ensure that DVC points spent for a vacation in March CAN be used at a later time, I fully expect Disney to make that happen.

What I'm not seeing is DVC members, working through agents Like David's, getting in front of this and ensuring their customers that whatever remedies Disney extends to the DVC member will be passed along to the DVC renter. Instead, it seems like a lot of agents are just holding their breath waiting this out.

There are contracts, but contracts are predicated on business being done in good faith. It is not unreasonable to assume that if a renter has paid for something, the other parties will do whatever possible to give it to them.

A LOT of travel companies disappeared in the months following 9-11, stuff just got really too real and everyone decided to stay home. That's the barrel a business like DVCrentals is looking down, and the blurb they've put on their homepage is doing nothing to help the people who feel like they just burnt their finger on the stove by renting points instead of just booking a resort.

 

[Deb & Bill]

The part of this that bugs me is that, while things are pretty plastic right now, things will settle down and I have every faith that Disney will do right by their DVC members. Whatever that takes to ensure that DVC points spent for a vacation in March CAN be used at a later time, I fully expect Disney to make that happen.
...

You expect wrong. DVC is a business that must follow Florida timeshare regulations. The owner who used banked points to make the reservation had use of the points for one year and eight months (they had to bank those points before the last four months of their use year). No more, no less. They were in the year of the points life and if they expired at the end of March, they are gone forever. If they expire at the end of May, same thing. It would be nice if DVC returned annual fees for the points that were not able to be used when they were planned to be used, but even that would be a whole lot of money lost by DVC. Plus the owners are DVC. Disney isn't DVC. DVC is owned by the members who pay Disney to manage the company. Any money returned to member would come out of members' pockets. Timeshare regulations might not permit that either.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I have every faith that Disney will do right by their DVC members.

They won't extend points. Doing right by members is challenging because of how point allocation works. The most fair approach, even though many won't like it, is exactly what they are doing now: Maintaining banking and borrowing rules as written. Banked points cannot be rebanked and maintain their expiration. Borrowed points are staying where borrowed.

If they were to loosen this, they'd create a catastrophic situation in future years due to point imbalance. There is already going to be a big imbalance for the 2020 and 2021 UY/calendar years for availability. But it would be far worse if they changed the rules this year.

Possibly the full extent of "make right" that is even reasonably possible if rebate on annual dues. And I don't expect that one bit undet the Schultz regime.

Recession is going to limit direct sales anyway for a bit, and the points that are sold are out there. Some negativity in the short term doesn't actually hurt Disney, and they'll spring back when the economy revives without a lot of effort.

 

[cobright]

There is some nuance with regards to timeshare specific legals, but there is a lot here that transcends that.

Lemme just stand up a few of the bigger points...

• ...The owner who used banked points to make the reservation had use of the points for one year and eight months (they had to bank those points before the last four months of their use year). No more, no less. They were in the year of the points life and if they expired at the end of March, they are gone forever. If they expire at the end of May, same thing.
• It would be nice if DVC returned annual fees for the points that were not able to be used when they were planned to be used, but even that would be a whole lot of money lost by DVC.
• Plus the owners are DVC. Disney isn't DVC. DVC is owned by the members who pay Disney to manage the company. Any money returned to member would come out of members' pockets.

• They won't extend points. Doing right by members is challenging because of how point allocation works. The most fair approach, even though many won't like it, is exactly what they are doing now: Maintaining banking and borrowing rules as written. Banked points cannot be rebanked and maintain their expiration. Borrowed points are staying where borrowed.
• If they were to loosen this, they'd create a catastrophic situation in future years due to point imbalance.

Will have to jump back and forth on this set a little. DVC is owned by members, but DVC is not the Disney resort property. DVC is a very minority stake estate interest in a Disney real estate holding. For example... back of the envelope arithmatic puts the DVC ownership in AKV at about $12m. That's a 17% ownership of the property.

Those points exist to mark a stake in a single property but they can be exchanged in their use for other properties. The number of points issued for each new resort and the cost of an ownership stake in that resort are controlled by WDW. A simple exchange for expiring points used to book within a pandemic blackout for credits to be used among the 26000 rooms WDW has at it's disposal is not am impossibility. In fact, DVC members should hope it goes down like that, even if that dilutes their own usability in the short run.

Reason for that is simple. A DVC member's ownership interest, their deed, is really only worth what someone will pay you for it. Timeshare rankings have always put DVC at the top of the pack for maintaining value. But what happens to that as soon as Disney washes their hands as hundreds of Owner vacations disappear? "International pandemic and looming economic recession ... ha, stinks to be you but we got our money." That happens and every DVC deed becomes about as valuable as the paper it's printed on.

Recession is going to limit direct sales anyway for a bit, and the points that are sold are out there. Some negativity in the short term doesn't actually hurt Disney, and they'll spring back when the economy revives without a lot of effort.

Disney will spring back, but a DVC program that burns it's investors on the back of a natural disaster they had no hand in will not.

That's just what's coming up here time and time. People glad they didn't bother with DVC, because people who booked a stay through WDW know they will get taken care of.

 

[Marionnette]

There is some nuance with regards to timeshare specific legals, but there is a lot here that transcends that.

Lemme just stand up a few of the bigger points...


Will have to jump back and forth on this set a little. DVC is owned by members, but DVC is not the Disney resort property. DVC is a very minority stake estate interest in a Disney real estate holding. For example... back of the envelope arithmatic puts the DVC ownership in AKV at about $12m. That's a 17% ownership of the property.

Those points exist to mark a stake in a single property but they can be exchanged in their use for other properties. The number of points issued for each new resort and the cost of an ownership stake in that resort are controlled by WDW. A simple exchange for expiring points used to book within a pandemic blackout for credits to be used among the 26000 rooms WDW has at it's disposal is not am impossibility. In fact, DVC members should hope it goes down like that, even if that dilutes their own usability in the short run.

Reason for that is simple. A DVC member's ownership interest, their deed, is really only worth what someone will pay you for it. Timeshare rankings have always put DVC at the top of the pack for maintaining value. But what happens to that as soon as Disney washes their hands as hundreds of Owner vacations disappear? "International pandemic and looming economic recession ... ha, stinks to be you but we got our money." That happens and every DVC deed becomes about as valuable as the paper it's printed on.



Disney will spring back, but a DVC program that burns it's investors on the back of a natural disaster they had no hand in will not.

That's just what's coming up here time and time. People glad they didn't bother with DVC, because people who booked a stay through WDW know they will get taken care of.

Your reply highlights the fact that you are not aware of how DVC operates. WDW does not own DVC. There are DVC properties outside of WDW and none of the DVC resorts is owned by WDW.

DVC is not a minority stake in a Disney Resort property. DVC villas are 97% owned by the owners (as in, they have an ownership interest in a leased deed). DVC, not WDW, retains an approximate 3% interest in each DVC property as required by Florida timeshare law. As such, AKV (Kidani and Jambo House) are “majority-owned” by members. WDW has no ownership interest in those villas. AKL is a Walt Disney World property which is owned by WDW Resorts division. It shares amenities with AKV but they are owned by different subsidiaries of the much larger Walt Disney Company.

Points from one DVC property can be exchanged for use at another DVC property thru an intermediary division called the Buena Vista Trading Company (BVTC). If I own at BWV and want to use those points at 7 months out to stay at BLT, my BWV points first go thru the BVTC and are then used to book at BLT.

Only points purchased directly from DVD (Disney Vacation Development) can be used to exchange into the Disney Collection (the hotels). Those who purchased their contracts thru the resale market after 03/11/2011 cannot use their points for the Disney Collection. In simplified terms, whenever a trade by a member into the Disney Collection occurs, DVC, thru the BVTC, relinquishes a DVC villa to WDTC (Walt Disney Travel Company) to sell as a cash reservation. DVC then uses that cash to pay for the hotel room that the member booked. DVC cannot just do a “simple exchange for expiring points used to book within a pandemic blackout for credits to be used among the 26000 rooms WDW has at it's disposal.” It doesn’t work that way and would be against the POS.

 

[cobright]

Your reply highlights the fact that you are not aware of how DVC operates. WDW does not own DVC. There are DVC properties outside of WDW and none of the DVC resorts is owned by WDW.

I'm sorry, WDW is the wrong acronym, the wrong entity. I use it as shorthand for Disney inc. which is sloppy. I meant the Disney Parks, Experiences and Products (DPSE) owns DVC. DPSE is Walt Disney Company.

DVC is not a minority stake in a Disney Resort property. DVC villas are 97% owned by the owners (as in, they have an ownership interest in a leased deed). DVC, not WDW, retains an approximate 3% interest in each DVC property as required by Florida timeshare law. As such, AKV (Kidani and Jambo House) are “majority-owned” by members. WDW has no ownership interest in those villas. AKL is a Walt Disney World property which is owned by WDW Resorts division. It shares amenities with AKV but they are owned by different subsidiaries of the much larger Walt Disney Company.

This is a little harder to parse. Perhaps your, or someone else's, sources will show this better but when I look at the cost of building AKV compared to the number of ownership stakes sold at $17-20K I see a significant shortfall. DPSE isn't going to spend all that cash to build the resort and then hand its entire ownership over at a loss. If ownership is truly 97% in the hands of DVC Members then, by vote, they could change the name of their property to Universal Studios (with U.S. permission of course). But they can't. They don't own 97% of the property. They own 97% of one aspect of that property.

However the intricacies of all that work out, Disney Inc. builds and sells DVS property in order to make money. They do a great job of this because DVC member satisfaction is much higher than that of other timeshare opportunities. Like everything Disney, the greatest element in determining DVC value is the brand. But the value of every DVC member property (current and future) will be devastated if a month worth of vacations get flushed through no fault of the member without recompense. If that's what you think Disney Inc will let happen then you should sell your DVC now while you can still get what you paid for it.

So Disney Inc (whatever acronym you choose) can enforce the letter of its contracts and burn all these DVC members, either directly or through point trade agents like DVCRentals and see the whole of its brand tarnished and see the value of its DVC investment opportunities utterly gutted... or ... it can use all 26,000 of its resort rooms it has at its disposal to make the situation right with regards to those members burned by the pandemic closures.

To suggest that Disney's hands are tied is just silly. Preserving their flawless brand identity is in the company's DNA. I once watched them add a day to a guests ticket at 7:00PM because that guests child didn't actually like Animal Kingdom and they would have preferred going back to MK.

 

[Deb & Bill]

DVC is pretty much comprised of DVC owners (about 97% ownership of the resorts), DVC Managing Company (who members hire to manage the resorts) and DVC Sales. DVC Managing company pays Disney for the lease of the property the resorts are built on. So while DVC owners own the majority of the company, by means of the purchasing contract, they turn management of the property over to DVC Managing company. And then there are many other companies under the DVC umbrella, Like Buena Vista Trading Company.

 

[Marionnette]

This is a little harder to parse. Perhaps your, or someone else's, sources will show this better but when I look at the cost of building AKV compared to the number of ownership stakes sold at $17-20K I see a significant shortfall. DPSE isn't going to spend all that cash to build the resort and then hand its entire ownership over at a loss. If ownership is truly 97% in the hands of DVC Members then, by vote, they could change the name of their property to Universal Studios (with U.S. permission of course). But they can't. They don't own 97% of the property. They own 97% of one aspect of that property.

However the intricacies of all that work out, Disney Inc. builds and sells DVS property in order to make money. They do a great job of this because DVC member satisfaction is much higher than that of other timeshare opportunities. Like everything Disney, the greatest element in determining DVC value is the brand. But the value of every DVC member property (current and future) will be devastated if a month worth of vacations get flushed through no fault of the member without recompense. If that's what you think Disney Inc will let happen then you should sell your DVC now while you can still get what you paid for it.

So Disney Inc (whatever acronym you choose) can enforce the letter of its contracts and burn all these DVC members, either directly or through point trade agents like DVCRentals and see the whole of its brand tarnished and see the value of its DVC investment opportunities utterly gutted... or ... it can use all 26,000 of its resort rooms it has at its disposal to make the situation right with regards to those members burned by the pandemic closures.

To suggest that Disney's hands are tied is just silly. Preserving their flawless brand identity is in the company's DNA. I once watched them add a day to a guests ticket at 7:00PM because that guests child didn't actually like Animal Kingdom and they would have preferred going back to MK.

AKV sold 7.4M+ points which they began selling in 2009 at $112/pt. Assuming that DVC owns 3% of those points, that leaves around 7.2M sold to owners. That’s just under $804M that DVD took in (plus or minus a few $M from developer credits to buyers and price increases before the resort sold out).

Now, I don’t know what the price tag was for building AKV (the Jambo House villas were converted from existing hotel rooms). But I’m guessing that it wasn’t anywhere close to $804 million even after sale commissions and marketing was paid.