ECV usage discussion.....

[goofy4tink]

Ok guys. There was a thread on the Theme Parks board on this subject. It was an interesting discussion. It's always nice to be able to get the various viewpoints from all sides of the issue. The thread got closed (I am the kiss of death for a lot of threads over there)...so I thought I might bring it here. I know that this group is able to debate/discuss their feelings politely.
So, the thread took a turn towards how an ECV is boarded, and the accompanying group with it. Anyone here have any views, observations, experiences they care to share?

 

[tjmw2727]

Traveled twice with dd's best friend who is a cancer survivor using an ecv - 17 and in remission thank God. (Yes she found a company to rent to a 17 year old, learned how to use it and was very responsible and courteous!).

Most times she would go to the WC loading with her dad, her brother and my dd (4 total) while the rest of us including her mom (5 total) waited in the regular line. Only once were we separated as we had to wait for the next bus. At the end of the day we separated by family (4 in the ECV party) and again were only separated once and it was the ECV party that had to wait longer.

I don't mind waiting for loading of WC/ECVs and have no problem with a reasonable number of people accompanying the WC user, especially minors; but I wish Disney would enforce their own rule on that. I do think the WC user should already be "in line" at the bus stop to qualify for the pre boarding, those that are pulling up after the bus pulls up could maybe wait for the next bus IMHO.

I didn't see the other thread so I apologize if this is repetitive.

 

[lost*in*cyberspace]

Usually when a thread is closed on an online discussion board because it gets out of hand, it's a board violation to restart it. Isn't that the policy there?

There are plenty of ECV discussions on the Disabilities forum.

 

[Ladygoldenhair]

I think trolls scour the disability board to stir up emotions about the topic. Asking longestics questions here seems appropriate to me.

First on, last off. The group is usually 2-3 of us, one ECV and one collapsible wheel chair. If we are waiting at the stop how would the family enter, go in line at the end? I'm not sure how any other way would work to stay together.

Now, it's been so difficult leaving MK lately, often waiting for a third or fourth bus even after we went through the Long line to get to the accessible boarding gate. The buses can only take one, two maybe....the long line has started boarding so no one to knows we are there until the gate, so next bus it is, or is it?

Then a next bus comes taking the person ahead of us. The following bus would come without ability to board us....the fourth bus is finally arriving and we got on that one.
Imagine your family waits in the line but you are stopped from boarding. You are told to wait over here....not for the next bus, or the one after, but now the third or fourth bus if it's equipped to take you. By that time the ECV are stacking up but what is the answer.

That seems unacceptable, if you are in the next set of people to board, then you should be boarded too. Sorry if you were sitting and moved, but I really want to get the family back an acceptable amount of time.

So now we take the car and ferry over the ECV and a collapsible wheel chair is too much to get up the ramp.

Life is more than twice the physical effort and a lot of preplanning when depending on four wheels instead of two feet alone.

My family does not all ride, the kids if with us always allow the family with kids to sit. I feel so bad for small kids asleep in parents arms being bounced about as teens sit. I think a whole lot other stirring would go on if there were people moved to allow this parents to sit in a section up front too.

 

[goofy4tink]

Usually when a thread is closed on an online discussion board because it gets out of hand, it's a board violation to restart it. Isn't that the policy there?

There are plenty of ECV discussions on the Disabilities forum.

Seriously? I'm pretty cognizant of the rules here. I completely realize why that thread was closed. I'm not going to go into that or my feelings regarding it. Each moderator has their own way of 'handling' their board. I have complete faith in my board/people, and if things get 'out of hand' will deal with it. But I doubt that is going to happen. This isn't a Disabilities issue....it's a transportation usage one. And I'm curious as to what those over here feel about it, and what their experiences are.
If you don't want to partake, then don't. No one is saying you have to contribute or participate. But I am always interested in what people think.

 

[goofy4tink]

It would seem that we have the same experiences here, that were posted over on the Theme Parks board. There was one poster that was quite adamant that she not be split up from her family, that it wasn't fair. My thought was that if you just roll up to the bus stop, as the bus is pulling in, and you have a group of more than 6, it would be nice if you had the addtl members of your group get into the regular standby line. But the response was that I would be penalizing those ECV/wheelchair guests that traveled with larger groups, while those in the standby line could have as large a group as they wanted without being split up.

I have also seen bus after bus come without the ability to board an ECV...and it really angers me. It's not fair. Once in awhile? Fine. But not as often as I've seen it happen.

I guess I was really just curious as to what those using ECVs had experienced and how you dealt with traveling with a larger group. And what, if any, reactions you got from the standby people.

 

[Sugardimples]

I think that if a bus does not have a working lift it should be removed from operation and fixed. No bus should be sent out that is not fully operational.This seems to be an ADA violation.

 

[jtowntoflorida]

We've had 4 Disney trips in the last 3 years. During 3 of 4 of these trips, we were never once on a bus with an ECV user. The only summer trip we took, which was also the only time we stayed in a moderate (all the other stays were at Deluxes), was also the only trip where we experienced ECV users on the bus, and we were only there for 3 days. That's neither here nor there, but I did find it interesting.

Since we have very little experience with ECVs on the buses, we also never experienced large groups attempting to board with the ECV user. Most of the time, it was an average sized family (3-5 people) boarding the ECV user, which I don't have a problem with. I did think that it was sorta unfair that the ECV user got to board first, with their family, because the buses were always jammed back and we never once got to sit down on any of our return trips from the park (well, on our last night on our last return trip after EMH, an older gentlemen gave up his seat to me after my daughter fell asleep on him--LOL!), but I can also see from a practical POV why ECVs need to be boarded first.

It's hard finding a balance. I don't think that ECV users should be separated from their families...I know I wouldn't separate from mine, but we also don't travel with extended groups.

...
I have also seen bus after bus come without the ability to board an ECV...and it really angers me. It's not fair. Once in awhile? Fine. But not as often as I've seen it happen.
...

I am curious about this. Were the buses not able to be boarded because they were already occupied by ECVs, or just because they were already full with able-bodied people? Do you think the new, larger buses will help resolve this issue?

 

[DakotaRose]

It's not an ADA violation. Not every vehicle must be equipped.

 

[Lewisc]

I think that if a bus does not have a working lift it should be removed from operation and fixed. No bus should be sent out that is not fully operational.This seems to be an ADA violation.

JMO, I have no idea of how ADA regulations apply, Disney shouldn't have to remove the bus in the middle of a day. The bus should be pulled for repair the next day the shop is open. I don't know if the shop is open Sunday (or even Saturday). Disney should have enough parts, including extra lifts, so it can be fixed the next working day.

Mears uses alternate buses, as available and as needed during peak periods. I don't think all of those buses have lifts.

I've never experienced the kinds of "abuse" being mentioned in these threads. It sounds like the kinds of abuse which occurs when extended famlies try to take advantage of disability pre-booarding on planes.

 

[Lewisc]

Usually when a thread is closed on an online discussion board because it gets out of hand, it's a board violation to restart it. Isn't that the policy there?

There are plenty of ECV discussions on the Disabilities forum.

A corollary to your point. The correct procedure if you see a post which potentially violates board rules is to use the icon to report the post. A moderator will take the appropriate action.

A general observation. Posters in other boards tend to "debate" the issues. Threads in the transportation board tend to be more factual.

 

[lost*in*cyberspace]

Seriously? I'm pretty cognizant of the rules here. I completely realize why that thread was closed. I'm not going to go into that or my feelings regarding it. Each moderator has their own way of 'handling' their board. I have complete faith in my board/people, and if things get 'out of hand' will deal with it. But I doubt that is going to happen. This isn't a Disabilities issue....it's a transportation usage one. And I'm curious as to what those over here feel about it, and what their experiences are.
If you don't want to partake, then don't. No one is saying you have to contribute or participate. But I am always interested in what people think.

According to board rules, restarting a closed thread is a board infraction.

I don't know anything about the closed thread, nor am I interested. I simply asked for a rules clarification. I find the tone of your response uncalled for.

 

[bumbershoot]

I wish I knew what the current rules and reasoning were.

It used to be that drivers wanted the people using wheeled conveyances to board first (even if they just came up) because their understanding of the ADA was that if a bus was too full for a wheelchair/ECV user, it was now too full for others. So they wanted the people to come forward, get loaded, and then fill in with others.

Then it seemed to shift, where they wanted people inside the lines. Of course then the drivers can't see the people sitting until they are right up at the front of the line. I'm not sure what would happen then.

There was a shift, and then another shift, and I've lost track. I wish I knew the current reasoning and policy.


I dislike 100% the concept that a wheelchair/scooter-using family should be split up, when no one else would be. We've often traveled with extended family, and that's a group of 8 (9, now). My aunt uses a cane but really should have been on a scooter, and it felt silly that we don't have to split up if she's using a cane, but we would have to split up if she caved into using the wheels.

That said, we're a group that doesn't have to be connected at the hip; we CAN split up if we want to. But we don't want to be forced to do it, especially just because of the method of transportation my aunt might use.


And THAT said, I can remember ONE instance of a scooter having any sort of impact on my bus trips. And the only negativity about it was that the bus driver didn't tell us "I'm keeping the doors closed and I'm walking around the outside of the bus to the back doors to offload a scooter"...she said nothing and then yelped at us when we started to move forward. Silly us, not knowing who was onboard the bus and what she was doing.

I'm not a person who is going to get huffy because someone using a scooter/wheelchair gets to get on in front of me. Given the joint problems on all sides of my family, I'm sure it's coming my way eventually anyway.

 

[grimley1968]

It seems on that thread that was closed I saw one or two people mention that with the newer buses that can "lean" so that the bus ramp is flat with the curb, negating the need for a lift, and that with that system they were able to roll themselves on to the bus to a point, take a seat, and then the bus driver would wheel the ECV over to the tie-down area. Then when offloading the bus driver puts the ECV on the sidewalk and the ECV user takes it from there.

I have not personally seen this happen (though I have seen the newer buses that "lean" - just never had an ECV user need a bus when riding these), but can imagine this would greatly speed up the ECV boarding process, maybe even to the point where the "first on, last off" rule won't matter much. It wouldn't take away potential problems with massive groups boarding first with an ECV user, but to be honest I have never had this happen to me.

Are most of the buses now the "leaning" kind?

 

[BillSears]

As a wheelchair user my experiences are similar to Ladygoldenhair's.

I usually travel with small groups. The largest I've ever boarded a bus with was 4 people and 2 of us were on wheels. I do think there should be some limit on boarding but it's a tough call where to cut it off. But please do not hold back on boarding and wait for the next bus. If you do that then you can start getting a cascade of wheelchairs/ECVs begind you who can't board because you now are taking up the tie down space.

First on but also last off. So while many people complain about getting on first they forget that I'm still waiting to get off when they are already off and on the way to the gate.

I've been left behind at the bus stop plenty of times. If I arrive just as the bus is boarding I'm usually left behind even if the bus isn't full. Again it's the first on thing, most drivers won't load a wheelchair once boarding has begun. I've also been the 3rd ECV/wheelchair in line so while the bus wasn't full it was full to wheelchair users and I was left behind.

My worst time was leaving EPCOT. I finally made it to the front of the line and then watched 4 bus loads of people who were behind me in line leave before I was able to board a bus. That night I was alone at the bus stop after everyone else in line had departed at the end of the night and I was still waiting for a tie down spot on a bus. Here is a thread I started about that night: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2583052

Overall I think Disney does what it can with the resources it has. Sometimes I get ahead of the person who is at the end of the line, sometimes I get left behind, and most of the time we all travel on the same bus.

 

[bumbershoot]

My worst time was leaving EPCOT. I finally made it to the front of the line and then watched 4 bus loads of people who were behind me in line leave before I was able to board a bus. That night I was alone at the bus stop after everyone else in line had departed at the end of the night and I was still waiting for a tie down spot on a bus. Here is a thread I started about that night: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2583052

That's awful, Bill. I just read the first post from the thread. Just terrible.

If only there were a flag you could hold up to show that there's someone waiting, you know?

From the timing of that experience, was it during some of the changes to how buses were dispatched? We were there in December 2010 and we were told that they had recently changed dispatching, so they sent buses to where the crowds were, even if the crowds were waiting a shorter time than a small group of people. Since that was our first trip we relied on what we were told. During that time my aunt, my husband, and a small group of strangers were all left behind at DHS well after closing, because they just would not dispatch a bus for OKW because the crowds were elsewhere. It was only a bus driver going to SSR who finally took pity on them that got them "home".

I'm not comparing their experience to yours, just wondering about the timing of it, and if it happened because of the supposed dispatching changes.

 

[tjmw2727]

Ah ok that makes sense - never thought of it that way re pulling up as the bus does. I now think differently and yes it seems smart to load the wheelchair/ECV on that bus if there is room!!

As for splitting up with a larger party I really didn't mind! I figure we split up at the parks for rides, the kids go off on their own sometimes, etc so it really doesn't bother me if we can't all ride the same bus. We can just meet up at the destination.


;51958239]As a wheelchair user my experiences are similar to Ladygoldenhair's.

I usually travel with small groups. The largest I've ever boarded a bus with was 4 people and 2 of us were on wheels. I do think there should be some limit on boarding but it's a tough call where to cut it off. But please do not hold back on boarding and wait for the next bus. If you do that then you can start getting a cascade of wheelchairs/ECVs begind you who can't board because you now are taking up the tie down space.

First on but also last off. So while many people complain about getting on first they forget that I'm still waiting to get off when they are already off and on the way to the gate.

I've been left behind at the bus stop plenty of times. If I arrive just as the bus is boarding I'm usually left behind even if the bus isn't full. Again it's the first on thing, most drivers won't load a wheelchair once boarding has begun. I've also been the 3rd ECV/wheelchair in line so while the bus wasn't full it was full to wheelchair users and I was left behind.

My worst time was leaving EPCOT. I finally made it to the front of the line and then watched 4 bus loads of people who were behind me in line leave before I was able to board a bus. That night I was alone at the bus stop after everyone else in line had departed at the end of the night and I was still waiting for a tie down spot on a bus. Here is a thread I started about that night: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2583052

Overall I think Disney does what it can with the resources it has. Sometimes I get ahead of the person who is at the end of the line, sometimes I get left behind, and most of the time we all travel on the same bus.[/QUOTE]

 

[keishashadow]

Some horror stories here. However, I can understand others being frustrated after they have been waiting 20 minutes or so and observe an ECV & accompanying large group approach shortly before the bus arrives and they find themselves waiting for the next one. ECVs and minor children should always receive priority imo. Surprised they don't have a limit in place as to how many adults in the party may accompany the person in the ECV, especially when it's peak travel time.

Curious, for those who have experienced issues, have they been primarily at park closing time?

 

[goofy4tink]

We've had 4 Disney trips in the last 3 years. During 3 of 4 of these trips, we were never once on a bus with an ECV user. The only summer trip we took, which was also the only time we stayed in a moderate (all the other stays were at Deluxes), was also the only trip where we experienced ECV users on the bus, and we were only there for 3 days. That's neither here nor there, but I did find it interesting.

Since we have very little experience with ECVs on the buses, we also never experienced large groups attempting to board with the ECV user. Most of the time, it was an average sized family (3-5 people) boarding the ECV user, which I don't have a problem with. I did think that it was sorta unfair that the ECV user got to board first, with their family, because the buses were always jammed back and we never once got to sit down on any of our return trips from the park (well, on our last night on our last return trip after EMH, an older gentlemen gave up his seat to me after my daughter fell asleep on him--LOL!), but I can also see from a practical POV why ECVs need to be boarded first.

It's hard finding a balance. I don't think that ECV users should be separated from their families...I know I wouldn't separate from mine, but we also don't travel with extended groups.





I am curious about this. Were the buses not able to be boarded because they were already occupied by ECVs, or just because they were already full with able-bodied people? Do you think the new, larger buses will help resolve this issue?

It was just an issue of not enough room on one bus, and an equipment issue on others. It happens

According to board rules, restarting a closed thread is a board infraction.

I don't know anything about the closed thread, nor am I interested. I simply asked for a rules clarification. I find the tone of your response uncalled for.

I apologize if my tone offended you...wasn't my intention. As far as the rules to, I haven't restarted a closed thread. I have started a brand new one, on a different board. The rule applies when someone continues discussing what was in a closed thread, on the same board. It is fine for someone to go to a different board and look for discussion.
I actually wish that thread had been moved here...it was a better fit. Bit, not my call. I think it's an interesting subject....and if just one person sees those on an ecv in a different, more compassionate way, then I think this thread has served a purpose.

As a wheelchair user my experiences are similar to Ladygoldenhair's.

I usually travel with small groups. The largest I've ever boarded a bus with was 4 people and 2 of us were on wheels. I do think there should be some limit on boarding but it's a tough call where to cut it off. But please do not hold back on boarding and wait for the next bus. If you do that then you can start getting a cascade of wheelchairs/ECVs begind you who can't board because you now are taking up the tie down space.

First on but also last off. So while many people complain about getting on first they forget that I'm still waiting to get off when they are already off and on the way to the gate.

I've been left behind at the bus stop plenty of times. If I arrive just as the bus is boarding I'm usually left behind even if the bus isn't full. Again it's the first on thing, most drivers won't load a wheelchair once boarding has begun. I've also been the 3rd ECV/wheelchair in line so while the bus wasn't full it was full to wheelchair users and I was left behind.

My worst time was leaving EPCOT. I finally made it to the front of the line and then watched 4 bus loads of people who were behind me in line leave before I was able to board a bus. That night I was alone at the bus stop after everyone else in line had departed at the end of the night and I was still waiting for a tie down spot on a bus. Here is a thread I started about that night: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2583052

Overall I think Disney does what it can with the resources it has. Sometimes I get ahead of the person who is at the end of the line, sometimes I get left behind, and most of the time we all travel on the same bus.

And there is the issue in a nutshell.....the vast majority of people complaining about ECV users on the buses, either don't realize, or just plain don't care, that those guests on ECVs now have to wait to get off the bus. Those of us that are able bodies are further ahead by the time you're getting off that bus.

I think it's always helpful to see a situation from someone else's point of view. And that's one reason I started this thread.

A lot of the buses 'lean' so the lift isn't an issue. And that's nice to see. I wish all the buses had that capability. It sure would make life easier for a lot of people. No one should have to wait through 4 or 5 buses. That's just not fair. Maybe 2 buses, but that's about it.

 

[goofy4tink]

Some horror stories here. However, I can understand others being frustrated after they have been waiting 20 minutes or so and observe an ECV & accompanying large group approach shortly before the bus arrives and they find themselves waiting for the next one. ECVs and minor children should always receive priority imo. Surprised they don't have a limit in place as to how many adults in the party may accompany the person in the ECV, especially when it's peak travel time.

Curious, for those who have experienced issues, have they been primarily at park closing time?

There is signage at each stop 'asking' that only 6 (I think that's the number) people board with the guest using an ECV. Airs usually not a huge issue, but I have seen it happen a few times. And that's my issue...it's aggravating to stand and wait, when someone just rolls up, with their group of 10, and they all board the bus. I have seen it happen primarily in the morning, for park opening.
Like I said, it isn't a common occurrence, but it does happen. And that's when you see comments being made. But....in the big picture? What's an addtl 15 mins waiting for a bus going to do? Just relax and be glad you're waiting for a bus at WDW vs the T in Boston!