DVC's right to Amend the POS

[Dean]

Let us suppose that what you say is true, though I personally see no evidence that cash guests cause more damage on average than a DVC owner or their personal rentals. Disney actually retains a pretty small percentage of ownership in a sold out resort. Most of the cash reservations in the system become available because an owner has opted to use points outside the DVC system of resorts. So technically, it is a DVC Owners reservation. Why should Disney be held responsible for what is really a DVC Owner reservation? Disney rented the unit for DVC to offset the cost of the trade.

That's because there is no evidence that one group is worse than others. Even DVC owners are more like one who gets a rental car. The ONLY exception I can think of is those with fixed week/fixed unit options which doesn't apply to DVC. I've tended to ask this question of Marriott GM's over the past few years, including one I know personally otherwise, and none seemed to think it was an issue though none had actual factual information. All felt that makeup of the group was the issue, basically that the spring break crowd was more risky that a family. Based on my dealings with those renting, they seem a lot more appreciative and caring towards DVC than do members so I'd suspect renters are more likely to protect overall than members but realize it will fall more to the inherent tendencies of the people involved than anything else.

 

[Sammie]

I think basically what it means is that DVC has total control after they take our money and that the recent change to future resale purchases is just the first of more chances coming as DVC exercises it's right to do what "they" feel is in the best interest of DVC.

I am just glad we have had ours long enough to recoup our investment, and that if we decide to sell, we won't care if we gain anything else.

At this point I could not recommend anyone buying.

And yes I know that the POS is the same as it was when we bought, but the management is not and there in lies the crux of the problem as far as I am concerned.

 

[TisBit]

also there are other factors. why would disney drive owners away when
they also support the parks' incomes? what gripe can a resale owner
have if they are forced to book @ their home resort? [ who buys an
used car & expect show-room quality? ] also i wonder what types of
people staling the shower heads & air mattresses? { confirmed by
blt workers.}

I would actually venture to guess that if you looked at per visit stats of DVC owners vs a cash guest, DVC owners on average spend less money per trip. DVC owners are frequent visitors and tend to learn how to make an affordable trip and don't buy a ton of souveniers, etc. Cash guests are likely to be "trip of a lifetime" type of people...or at least every few year guests. Those guests are more likely to spend lots of money on souveniers/food, etc because they are not sure when they will be back.

Now this is a mass generalization and there will always be exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, I think on average a cash guest spends more money per trip in the parks than a DVC Member. The difference comes in the fact that a DVC member over a lifetime is most likely to spend much more than an average cash guest, because they will take more trips.

That's because there is no evidence that one group is worse than others. Even DVC owners are more like one who gets a rental car. The ONLY exception I can think of is those with fixed week/fixed unit options which doesn't apply to DVC. I've tended to ask this question of Marriott GM's over the past few years, including one I know personally otherwise, and none seemed to think it was an issue though none had actual factual information. All felt that makeup of the group was the issue, basically that the spring break crowd was more risky that a family. Based on my dealings with those renting, they seem a lot more appreciative and caring towards DVC than do members so I'd suspect renters are more likely to protect overall than members but realize it will fall more to the inherent tendencies of the people involved than anything else.

I agree that a renter vs owner is not necessarily an indicator on how well the room is taken care of. There are lots of owners with the opinion that they have bought into the system and have a right to treat the property like their own (moving furniture, taking things, breaking things) and will feel that they paid for it anyway. While most DVC members on the Dis are not likely this (or won't admit it ) there are lots of owners that don't hold the same value to DVC as this community.

Demographics is definitely a better indicator. You mentioned that Spring breakers will be more risky than a family, but in the same sense a family is more risky vs a retired couple. Not only is there destructive behavior, but there is incidental damage as well. When a baby gets sick and throws up on the carpet, it might cause a stain. If kids are playing in the villa you are more likely to have broken furniture, etc. Demographics is definitely the key, regardless of how they got there (renter, cash guest, DVC owner). If you take someone who doesn't care about their car and give them an 80k mercedes, it will still be trashed in a couple of years.

 

[Sammie]

Actually in reference to Lil' Grumpy's comment, more owners damage units than paying guests or renters.

This is based on several conservations with managers at the various DVC resorts.

One guy came down recently after losing his job, stayed 2 weeks to use up his points before he lost them due to not paying his dues and completey and totally trashed the room.

Also have to agree to Tisbit, as frequent visitors to WDW, we spent less and less each trip. Sometimes not even going to a Disney park or restaurant the entire trip.

 

[Dean]

Actually in reference to Lil' Grumpy's comment, more owners damage units than paying guests or renters.

This is based on several conservations with managers at the various DVC resorts.

One guy came down recently after losing his job, stayed 2 weeks to use up his points before he lost them due to not paying his dues and completey and totally trashed the room.

Also have to agree to Tisbit, as frequent visitors to WDW, we spent less and less each trip. Sometimes not even going to a Disney park or restaurant the entire trip.

That's my sense as well but I don't have anything to back it up with. Many DVC owners certainly seem to have a sense of entitlement.

 

[Lil' Grumpy]

oops, , my por spellin , it should have been
"stealing" shower heads & mattress.

for the record, entitlement is simply a rationalization & has no
value when i try to determine "what in the world have we
invested in"?! and while i did not cited the specifics, my input came
from facts- observations and workers input. no guessing.

like crap!, i have enough experiences with dvc people, where
they don't think nothing about lying. [ because the dis will blocked
out their posted names, is the only reason not to post them.]

the way/s dvc allows their workers to do things that members
cannot do & then "stick us" with the bills is a concern based on reality.
[ for example, when we interacted, sometimes when they attempted
to redirect a question. they made me realized what they are really doing
behind the scenes. i have also seen some of them posted on the
boards, to intimidate owners. and because i don't mind asking
questions, does not mean i am not listening to their answers.
[ some very shocking comments, in~deeds.] .

we are a pro-disney family. dvc has been more than i expected
[ surprised @ so many un-disney like behaviors. ] but i also have
found some kindred spirits too.

the vandalism remarks had multiple sources, the workers @ blt.
there were patterns repeated over & over. they assured me thye
reported the stealing/serious damages & they were told to
ignored it. do you think these managers are going to pay or
replace?

this room made it clear on some things that are needing correcting.
the damages told a story too. besides burning rubber, it took
some strength to squeezed a scooter inside the island &
appliances- then hit the gas, putting major dents in them. they removed
sections of the wooden trim - because they destroyed it. the
one doorstop, was bent over, while the other gone. [ hole in the
carpet.] call it whatever you want, but my dues better not
being paid for this abuse & if dvc is calling this "wear & tear",
they know it is stealing from members.

then there's that lil'thing , or relationship between tier benefits &
being refer to entitled- plus the new rules changes. again, i think dvc
having the potential to make changes is a need not a want.
when i look @ dvc structure , there are many, many things they
can change. do they keep track how many resorts owners
are going to a different resorts? how many blt owners do
you think are trying to get a room like ssr? are there any changes
to encourage this ? how many buying blt are doing so without ever
planning to stay @ blt? if dvc is keeping track of the trends,
then i can see them having this power to make changes to
keep all owners happy-even resales, within reason.

so you think some blt owners are doing vandalism & stealing
the shower heads +, (to me), is like saying blt owners like to
throw away money. also as an owner, who paying for the
wear & tear of those rci trading in? wondering how much
damaging they are doing? [ if owners do not do rci trades then
we our dues should not pay for this or owners should being
the pay in fees. ]. if these issues were addressed, dues would
be less for all owners by my observations.

 

[maminnie]

Actually in reference to Lil' Grumpy's comment, more owners damage units than paying guests or renters.

This is based on several conservations with managers at the various DVC resorts.

One guy came down recently after losing his job, stayed 2 weeks to use up his points before he lost them due to not paying his dues and completey and totally trashed the room.

Also have to agree to Tisbit, as frequent visitors to WDW, we spent less and less each trip. Sometimes not even going to a Disney park or restaurant the entire trip.

Why would he have been permitted to continue with his reservation if his dues were not paid?

 

[drusba]

Actually in reference to Lil' Grumpy's comment, more owners damage units than paying guests or renters.

This is based on several conservations with managers at the various DVC resorts.

That seems to be an obvious conclusion simply because owner occupancies of rooms likely outnumber those by paying quests or renters by more than 4 to 1, but it tells you little as to whether the percentage of renters who do not take care of rooms is higher or lower than the percentage of owners. I would suspect neither is actually worse than the other but I have no valid information to determine that. I don't think that there actually is much of a relationship between taking care of a room and being an owner or renter but instead those who are likely to trash a room are likely to do so regardless of whether they are owners or renters.

 

[Dean]

Why would he have been permitted to continue with his reservation if his dues were not paid?

Once you are behind on dues, they freeze your account to try to force payment of the dues or as a min, prevent usage of points that would not be paid for (dues or loans).

 

[Lil' Grumpy]

whatever?! only that i do not trust your sources...(dvc managers, saying
owners are the main culprits.)

if i may, just like to express my ongoing concerns. [ i figure my opinion is
no better or worst then those with opposite views. except i do try
to look where it is coming from as to give or take away merits.]

we are new owners, but having been going to wdw since the 80's. we
have been lied to by many dvc workers but it does not matter. ( they
are not family or anyone i care for . ) what these workers may not
realized, that their lying is redirecting to things that the co. probably
does not want owners even thinking about. many instances, they
also revealed facts in trying to "sell" their deception.

reality orientation is my favorite work intervention. it is so effective
in human dynamics and can be use in everyday life.

one manager informed me that blt has no air mattress & therefore,
they could have never stolen. not only did the workers told a different
story, they were adamant about the details! i copied facts right off
the dis boards. he threw a fit about even looking @ them. i wonder
why? [ ha-ha!] when he first met me, he must have did a lil' homework
about the questions i been asking...he was defensive and sweating
before i even spoke. [ putting speech with reactions together
can reveal alot ]. it was when he attempted to reassured me, he
mentioned they have done investigations & fired dvc workers for
doing things wrong.

it is a fact, we have stayed in many rooms , & many valued resorts.
we have never seen such vandalism in all our years. not even close!

we are dvc members. therefore, i reasoning we were placed in a dvc
room. they did not held the guilty party for the damages. so is
who is going to "eat" this damages? we came here for safety. i was
shocked by what i saw going on. [ i think some of the workers are
taking advantage of no security & doing things that are not
family oriented.] nasty stuff!

as for the damages. the background of whoever isn't my concern @
all. i just expected disney to hold the guilty party responsible instead
of sticking us! when they failed , then they should eat the charges.

 

[Sammie]

Why would he have been permitted to continue with his reservation if his dues were not paid?

His dues were paid up, but he told them he knew without any job they were not going to get any more money from him.

He got drunk and trashed the room.

 

[Sammie]

whatever?! only that i do not trust your sources...(dvc managers, saying
owners are the main culprits.)

if i may, just like to express my ongoing concerns. [ i figure my opinion is
no better or worst then those with opposite views. except i do try
to look where it is coming from as to give or take away merits.]

we are new owners, but having been going to wdw since the 80's. we
have been lied to by many dvc workers but it does not matter. ( they
are not family or anyone i care for . ) what these workers may not
realized, that their lying is redirecting to things that the co. probably
does not want owners even thinking about. many instances, they
also revealed facts in trying to "sell" their deception.

reality orientation is my favorite work intervention. it is so effective
in human dynamics and can be use in everyday life.

one manager informed me that blt has no air mattress & therefore,
they could have never stolen. not only did the workers told a different
story, they were adamant about the details! i copied facts right off
the dis boards. he threw a fit about even looking @ them. i wonder
why? [ ha-ha!] when he first met me, he must have did a lil' homework
about the questions i been asking...he was defensive and sweating
before i even spoke. [ putting speech with reactions together
can reveal alot ]. it was when he attempted to reassured me, he
mentioned they have done investigations & fired dvc workers for
doing things wrong.

it is a fact, we have stayed in many rooms , & many valued resorts.
we have never seen such vandalism in all our years. not even close!

we are dvc members. therefore, i reasoning we were placed in a dvc
room. they did not held the guilty party for the damages. so is
who is going to "eat" this damages? we came here for safety. i was
shocked by what i saw going on. [ i think some of the workers are
taking advantage of no security & doing things that are not
family oriented.] nasty stuff!

as for the damages. the background of whoever isn't my concern @
all. i just expected disney to hold the guilty party responsible instead
of sticking us! when they failed , then they should eat the charges.

Grumpy they don't work for DVC, they work at the resorts where it happened. They have nothing to gain from not telling the truth. And honestly they are personal friends. They don't lie.

 

[maminnie]

His dues were paid up, but he told them he knew without any job they were not going to get any more money from him.

He got drunk and trashed the room.

Wow....that is terrible. It is amazing what some people will do and quite sad.

 

[dianeschlicht]

the background of [whomever] isn't my concern [at]
all. just expected [D]isney to hold the guilty party responsible instead
of sticking us! [W]hen they failed , then they should eat the charges.

Grumpy, I totally agree with that sentiment. My biggest complaint is that DVC doesn't hold people (be they owners or renters) accountable for their actions. If someone smokes in the room and the staff has to clean that for me, then I expect those smokers to be charged for it....Not me with my dues.

As for the demographics of those doing the damage. I truly do think it is angry owners. Twice we have had units at OKW that were trashed by the previous occupant. Once we got into our villa very late, and they told us at check in that the unit had been trashed. That time the carpets were still wet when we arrived at the unit. The second time, they left a note in our unit about the damage, and told us that the continued repairs to the vanity in the master bath would be completed the next morning. It wasn't something that interferred with the function of the bathroom sink, (they had to replace the whole vanity), but it makes me wonder WHO does this kind of thing????? Who does so much damage that an entire vanity and surrounding tile has to be removed? It does certainly boggle the mind.

We once had a unit that had brand new appliances, and the door of the dishwasher had been kicked in already. That could NOT be an accident.

 

[Lil' Grumpy]

wow, i am scratching my head over everything dvc.

fyi, if asked prior to our first dvc experience [ prior to losing our
first guide, prior to ever making our first revs., i would have
never believe "what" & how some are operating inside the organization.

* our guide , though he broke many promises, was a decent -
accurate adviser. may sound conflicting but true. it all started
when he became sick & therefore, we understood why his promises
were broken. dvc offices didn't even know he was out sick & was
the first sign that things are not right there.

as for the workers @ blt, they gave 2 major impressions- frustration
& details that follow logic.

when i write about the manager lying, i am saying she told me something
just to blow me off . when i spend my money & time to go to the office
& then be treated in this disrespectful manner, will not be forgotten.

life dynamics, are realities that can enrich your life & enpower one
with coping skills. the good thing bout seeking the truth, being
easy to recall. the thing about lying, you have to remember things
that can give it away.

what i reading on these boards....if one just step back, & read all
the stuff going wrong with dvc operations, even the things that are
happening outside dvc denying, is strong evidence that some
employees are not meeting their dvc job decriptions. some are
even resorting to passive-aggressive behaviors.