DVC Trust Eroding - Trust Thermocline

[zavandor]

The truth is that we don’t know yet, because details aren’t publicly available yet. It’s possible the current system and the trust will operate in parallel, just as the Wyndham and Marriott weeks and trust systems operate in parallel.

This. There are a lot of speculations going on, but we don't even know if it will happen for sure (it will), and what the rules will be.
We probably won't even know the real impact on existing owners for a few years after it's launched. It's unlikely every aspect will be transparent (for example, how exactly inventory will be managed), but rest reassured we won't go down without a fight .

 

[Sparky984]

So much this.

We still love our DVC / Disney, and we leave in 2 weeks for Disneyland, head to WDW in February, and are on the DVC charter to Lighthouse Point in June, so we clearly have no intention of stopping anytime soon.

Disney was always an expensive vacation, but in its heyday the value it provided and the experiences it created were beyond compare. We fell in love with Disney because it truly took us to a new place, and the value for our money was there. We shouted from the rooftops to everyone how amazing it was.

We still love it, but the same value is not there. I do feel fleeced a lot of the times going to Disney. Everything is comparatively more expensive, the quality is less, the value is less. It’s clear Corporate Disney is looking to make a profit - and using the profits of the park for purposes other than the parks - and it’s affecting the overall experience. We still love Disney, we will still go, but we recognize it’s not what it was, and we don’t quite shout from the rooftops anymore.

Like, I’m unlikely to sell my DVC anytime soon, and I’m not likely to do so because every refurb tosses the wonderful and immersive resort theming out the window. But it does make me cry a bit inside; at the very least I can no longer shout about how even the hotel rooms transport you away. I’m absolutely terrified of what the AKV refurb is going to bring. I know some people don’t like it, but I love feeling like I’m whisked away to an African Safari Lodge. Just like with FW Cabins were I loved feeling like I was staying at a rustic log cabin in the woods, and the new theming is not in keeping with that at all.

Don’t get me started with the points shenanigans. I was also one of the people who wrote in. Not to mention, My Treehouse contract is still “off” and the Treehouse point rebalance technically means my % ownership is less - not to respark that debate, as I’ve accepted that it is what it is. But those types of shenanigans and the fact that Disney did them, does make me distrustful of what Disney might do going forward, and thus makes me scrutinize every change that occurs. Such as what point rebalance Disney might try in a few years with Poly if the Tower is part of the association. I only have 100 points with PVB, though.

Anyway, I do hope Disney sees the light again and focuses a little more heavily on wowing the customer and creating an experience we’ll shout from the rooftop about.

The fleecing part. I feel either fleeced by Genie+ or I feel I’ve missed part of the parks. Genie is worse than FP, FP+, and standby only. Then the virtual queues that evaporate in an instant or it’s LL. It starts to feel like pay to get in, pay per ride, and if you go in party season, pay twice to stay all day.

We used to tell others how it felt all inclusive to go. We didn’t have to handle anything from the time we checked bags at our home airport until the time we picked up bags at our home airport. The cost to go included parks, some FPs, transportation, luggage services and we left feeling we spent a ton of money but it was a fair deal. I don’t people not to go, but I no longer tell them how great it is either. We still go, but we’re feeling increasingly pushed to do other things and go other places.

 

[SL6827]

The fleecing part. I feel either fleeced by Genie+ or I feel I’ve missed part of the parks. Genie is worse than FP, FP+, and standby only. Then the virtual queues that evaporate in an instant or it’s LL. It starts to feel like pay to get in, pay per ride, and if you go in party season, pay twice to stay all day.

We used to tell others how it felt all inclusive to go. We didn’t have to handle anything from the time we checked bags at our home airport until the time we picked up bags at our home airport. The cost to go included parks, some FPs, transportation, luggage services and we left feeling we spent a ton of money but it was a fair deal. I don’t people not to go, but I no longer tell them how great it is either. We still go, but we’re feeling increasingly pushed to do other things and go other places.

I have read that crowds were not as high as one would have thought today, yet Genie + is at a record high. Hmmmmmm.

 

[PolyRob]

The fleecing part. I feel either fleeced by Genie+ or I feel I’ve missed part of the parks. Genie is worse than FP, FP+, and standby only. Then the virtual queues that evaporate in an instant or it’s LL. It starts to feel like pay to get in, pay per ride, and if you go in party season, pay twice to stay all day.

We used to tell others how it felt all inclusive to go. We didn’t have to handle anything from the time we checked bags at our home airport until the time we picked up bags at our home airport. The cost to go included parks, some FPs, transportation, luggage services and we left feeling we spent a ton of money but it was a fair deal. I don’t people not to go, but I no longer tell them how great it is either. We still go, but we’re feeling increasingly pushed to do other things and go other places.

This is so true! This commercial isn't even 10 years old and it's "A Whole New World"

 

[Cfabar1]

This is so true! This commercial isn't even 10 years old and it's "A Whole New World"

Well that's depressing....

- FastPass+ Perks GONE
- Free Magic Bands GONE
- Magical Express GONE
- Extra Magic Hours - reduced/altered

Other than walkability to some resorts, the appeal for staying on property has basically been eliminated. And Marriott has that covered, so you don't necessarily need to stay with Disney to do that...

 

[Lorana]

The fleecing part. I feel either fleeced by Genie+ or I feel I’ve missed part of the parks. Genie is worse than FP, FP+, and standby only. Then the virtual queues that evaporate in an instant or it’s LL. It starts to feel like pay to get in, pay per ride, and if you go in party season, pay twice to stay all day.

We used to tell others how it felt all inclusive to go. We didn’t have to handle anything from the time we checked bags at our home airport until the time we picked up bags at our home airport. The cost to go included parks, some FPs, transportation, luggage services and we left feeling we spent a ton of money but it was a fair deal. I don’t people not to go, but I no longer tell them how great it is either. We still go, but we’re feeling increasingly pushed to do other things and go other places.

Don’t event get me started on Genie+… the cost for it is outrageous. And I hate hate hate having to spend time on my vacation planning with it. Yes, I know folks will say I don’t have to use it, and we don’t always, but we do travel during more crowded times and we don’t want to spend hours in line.

But also, we spent years and years traveling with our free Fastpasses per day, and we only go into the park for half a day at most when it’s just us traveling. Sure, getting up at 6am 60 days out was also a little annoying at times, yet it meant when I was on vacation, I was “on vacation.”

Your point about the all-inclusive feel is part of it - part of the Disney experience was that once I got there, I could relax. My plans were made and I could just enjoy them. Now I feel like I have to spend a lot of my time still planning while I’m there.

 

[MarkNC2Disney]

Now I feel like I have to spend a lot of my time still planning while I’m there.

The Disney World application is promoted as a “personalized” digital companion, but really it is designed to upsell, create lock-in, and smooth operations (for Disney’s sake).

 

[cbailey1616]

Our concern is Disney in general. OP hit on this with other segments.

I'm cautiously pleased with recent comments from Iger ( I believe he's a spinster, but still... ) Regarding content, He said something like "... we have to get out of sending a message (virtue signalling bs) and go back to great story telling"

One of the best things about Walt was he genuinely wanted to strengthen the family... He actually cared about kids .. he wanted to provide a second to none product for families to grow and have great experiences. "This is the way"

We base opinions on our visits. If the 'BS' starts to infiltrate our experiences, we will be out immediately. We just got back from a few nights in the treehouses... Happily, we haven't seen any issues with the magic going away. We had a great time.

Our fear would be like the trust premise "slowly at first then all at once" ... Disney is probably somewhere in the slowly at first, but hopefully they turn things around... I'm cautiously optimistic!

Have fun!

I don't trust Iger, this was his making. This culture runs deep there now. Unless the house is cleaned it won't change and Disney will continue to erode.

 

[Cfabar1]

I don't trust Iger, this was his making. This culture runs deep there now. Unless the house is cleaned it won't change and Disney will continue to erode.

Yes, the Disney culture of Eisner and Wells is extinct.

I would point out nearly every company doesn’t treat the customer as well as it used to. That is in part because it is much easier for the customer to be price sensitive and aware in a way that it wasn’t before.

I think the issue with Disney, is the decisions to continually cheapen the product come off as greedy because we know that people are paying an obscene amount for these trips.

A recent points guy article placed the cost of a 3 day/3 night trip to Disney running $3662.94, and that number included some travel hacks like Marriott certificates at the hotel, etc. That’s more than many 4 day 3 night trips on Disney Cruise Line! And, that is a short trip.

Disney is now charging as though it is a luxury product, which is fine. The thing that is disappointing is they are charging luxury prices, while not offering luxury in the hard product.

I actually feel, overall, Disney’s soft product - the CMs are overall amazing. However, the idea that a room at the Grand Floridian runs close to $1,000 a night is outrageous, or the idea that you have to pay 3 different ways to ride rides at the parks (Tickets, Genie+, Individual Lightning Lane) just feels greedy. DVC is no exception to this as well - they have made the points charts absurdly high, and increased the cost per point to the level that many people are not willing to buy in, and those who are get a FRACTION of what used to be offered.

However, as long as we all continue to go to Disney, buy our DVCs, pay our dues, etc. the current regime is going to do whatever they can to extract value out of us. That’s the way it goes, and if we don’t like it, we can leave.

 

[tom1944]

If you feel it is overpriced why do you go?

Overpriced and overcrowded are two complaints I see constantly on this board. That seems to not make sense.

 

[kilik64]

If you feel it is overpriced why do you go?

Overpriced and overcrowded are two complaints I see constantly on this board. That seems to not make sense.

Mickey bars.

 

[MyDogTink]

I have a lot of thoughts that I didn't get a chance to type out.

I will sound like a hypocrite here because of all my Disney complaints, yet I just added points this year. I will continue to go to Disney, spend tons of money on Disney trips and merch and probably add more DVC points. All in all, it is a great trip for my family. However, there are things that just don't sit right with me. A couple of things that come to mind and all randomly jotted down:

- If I have read correctly, when BLT was first sold, it had an established point chart and people bought in based on that. Then soon after, DVC changed the point chart to rebalance weekends/weekdays which meant a lot of new BLT owners were short on points for the trips they planned out when purchasing contracts. DVC reluctantly lowered the # of points for add-on so BLT owners could add on.

- Genie + is a money grab and makes me refer to Disney as "the Mickey Mafia". During our August trip, I purchased Genie+ as soon as it was available. My window for Remy was late in the day because I booked Frozen first. We rushed through a wonderful dinner at Trattoria al Forno to get to our 8 p.m. Remy reservation. Three families in front of us, the ride breaks down. I know there are bigger problems in life (the Hawaii fires were going on) but it just irked me that Disney will take more of your money at 6 a.m. and then this happens. My husband said it didn't matter because with DVC, we are bound to be back. Many families save for years for a once-in-a-lifetime trip to Disney.

- my fault for not purchasing park hopper tickets and then trying to upgrade them. At 7 p.m., spent one hour at the MK ticket window upgrading the tickets. We wanted to do Genie+ there but it was a couple of dollars more than what we paid for it at Epcot earlier in the day. I didn't have a credit card on me to pay the difference and you couldn't charge it via a magic band. It was close to 30 minutes before they added it complimentary. I know the corporate deal that they owe it to the shareholders to make money, but this was nickel and diming in my opinion.

- Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist but there is no clear communication on Poly Tower being new or same association. If Chang was so excited to share the news and so confident in it, why has DVC not had a follow-up publication on it? Why are some guides confirming her statement and others (mine) saying they can't confirm. Why is Chang's statement the only thing we have heard on it from DVC?

- Debacle with BWV refurbishment. Moving people days before check-in to an accommodation that is less than what they booked points for is unacceptable. DVC should have had a better handle on the refurb and yes, there are unforeseen problems with construction, but this isn't a one week issue. I hope they get their act together for the BLT refurb. I am fearful of booking for 2024/25.

 

[Cfabar1]

A lot of really great points!

 

[Royal Consort]

However, as long as we all continue to go to Disney, buy our DVCs, pay our dues, etc. the current regime is going to do whatever they can to extract value out of us. That’s the way it goes, and if we don’t like it, we can leave.

The thermocline model suggests that companies do this because they perceive consumers react to momentary cause and effect but they don't.

Thermocline analogy:



What happens is the company makes anti-consumer changes and their customers continue to pay, so they make more anti-consumer changes, and so on. This seems to be working out well for the company who ride the wave of large profits and consumer base until, suddenly, there's a seemingly unexplained precipitous drop off where customers abandon the company en masse.

The interesting part of the model is that consumers continue to spend even though they're emotionally detached from the brand until they become entirely unreceptive. At this point, the model states that the company cannot win back consumer loyalty because it is not one issue that caused the customers to leave: its many and the previous consumers are no longer listening. The thermocline can only be prevented before consumers seriously think of leaving, otherwise it's too late. It behooves brands to consider the consumer impact of their policies for long term sustainability and growth rather than quarterly results.

I don't think this model exclusively applies to DVC but to the Disney company's various divisions.

 

[Genie+]

We just got back and overall it was a great 8 night trip. More expensive than ever but we had a good time.

My niece bought our whole family 2 days of Genie+ and booked those. I didn’t pay close attention.

After they left my husband bought G+ for our last park day. He booked Na’vi G+ Since we were getting to the park early to do FoP. Nope, even though our Na’vi window was open to ride while in Pandora, it was down ALL morning.

After our 2 hour cooldown we booked Lion King. Arrived 20 minutes before the show, quick stop in the bathroom there, got on line >15 minutes before show. Cut off with 2 parties ahead of us. Guess what? The LL line and the standby were the SAME Frickin’ line. Yes that is bull.

Before these G+ experiences our first meal was at Satuli and that was also baaad. Shocking, it was fantastic for years. We threw out both plates after a few bites. What are they doing? How can you go from excellent to fail in one swift step.

So after still not riding Na’vi or see Lion King, we book Safari and make our way over to Nomad Lounge walkup list because we are very hungry despite spending the time and money at Satuli. 50 minute wait, no problem since we love this place. We putz around taking pics and then go into a nearby store. Welp, you won’t get your text in there. So when we go back after 50 minutes with no text received, it’s another 20 minute wait. It just made the frustrating G+ day more frustrating. We did 1 ride after traipsing back and forth, back and forth all morning and past noon.

I want to reiterate the overall trip was great. We did finally use a G+ at Safari. Yay. Also booked an unnecessary Dino, and never got to use our MEP from Na’vi being down all day because when we moved over to MK around 4pm, it did not transfer over to MK and it was our last park day.

G+ was a major impediment to our day and I’m embarrassed for them. Let’s see what changes come in Jan 2024.

 

[Lorana]

The thermocline model suggests that companies do this because they perceive consumers react to momentary cause and effect but they don't.

Thermocline analogy:

View attachment 821180

What happens is the company makes anti-consumer changes and their customers continue to pay, so they make more anti-consumer changes, and so on. This seems to be working out well for the company who ride the wave of large profits and consumer base until, suddenly, there's a seemingly unexplained precipitous drop off where customers abandon the company en masse.

The interesting part of the model is that consumers continue to spend even though they're emotionally detached from the brand until they become entirely unreceptive. At this point, the model states that the company cannot win back consumer loyalty because it is not one issue that caused the customers to leave: its many and the previous consumers are no longer listening. The thermocline can only be prevented before consumers seriously think of leaving, otherwise it's too late. It behooves brands to consider the consumer impact of their policies for long term sustainability and growth rather than quarterly results.

I don't think this model exclusively applies to DVC but to the Disney company's various divisions.

Agreed it's not just a Disney thing. A lot of companies are being very short-sighted (a huge flaw in our current economic models that focus almost solely on quarterly profits). Disney for a time seemed to buck this trend, though, and really seemed to understand that creating wow experiences and building that nostalgia will win them repeat customers for not just their lifetimes, but for their kids, and grandkids, and so on.

I do not think my kids will have the same connection to Disney that we did, because as they are becoming adults, they are all too aware of the nickel-and-diming that Disney is doing, and while sure they remember the magic they experienced when they were little (to some degree), they are not seeing the same value as young adults that we saw as young adults.

If we didn't own DVC, we would not be visiting Disney nearly as often as we do now. Which, yes, I know that's why they sell DVC. And we will continue to go, because it holds great memories for us, and we love it. But our last few trips, we've certainly been discussing how much extra it costs now to do everything, and we're more likely to do more and more resort stays, and certainly less dining given the costs. I don't necessarily want to be cooking during my vacations, but I also don't want to spend the kind of money we've been spending for meals... we did Crystal Palace for dinner and for four of us, after taxes and tip, it was over $300! So I think even for us, there may come a time where the value isn't where it was, and we consider at least downsizing.

But I keep hoping that Disney will try to turn things around, and invest in the value and experiences again!

 

[TheDailyMoo]

I will sound like a hypocrite here because of all my Disney complaints, yet I just added points this year. I will continue to go to Disney, spend tons of money on Disney trips and merch and probably add more DVC points. All in all, it is a great trip for my family. However, there are things that just don't sit right with me.

This is basically me. As a lifelong Disney fan I've never been so disenfranchised with Disney as I am right now...yet I just bought 2 DVC contracts and have 2 trips planned in the coming year that I can't wait for. So the only explanation is Stockholm Syndrome...

 

[Cfabar1]

This is basically me. As a lifelong Disney fan I've never been so disenfranchised with Disney as I am right now...yet I just bought 2 DVC contracts and have 2 trips planned in the coming year that I can't wait for. So the only explanation is Stockholm Syndrome...

Or is it that there's nowhere else to go?

I can't think of anyone who does vacation experiences better than Disney.

We used to travel to cities for vacation, and you'd spend the whole time figuring out what to do, where to go, what to see. You'd spend money in fancy restaurants for "unbelievable meals" that usually fell short of the price because you're in a tourist trap.

I have many issues with Disney right now. But, overall, I can't find someone who does it better. Travel has become INCREDIBLY expensive, and there are ways to do it relatively affordably at Disney to be honest (although I am not willing to do most of them).

I also say this as a Floridian, who has access to somewhat affordable annual passes, and the flexibility to go there as my schedule suits me.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

Or is it that there's nowhere else to go?

I can't think of anyone who does vacation experiences better than Disney.

We used to travel to cities for vacation, and you'd spend the whole time figuring out what to do, where to go, what to see. You'd spend money in fancy restaurants for "unbelievable meals" that usually fell short of the price because you're in a tourist trap.

I have many issues with Disney right now. But, overall, I can't find someone who does it better. Travel has become INCREDIBLY expensive, and there are ways to do it relatively affordably at Disney to be honest (although I am not willing to do most of them).

I also say this as a Floridian, who has access to somewhat affordable annual passes, and the flexibility to go there as my schedule suits me.

Well I'll say this, our family's vacationing habits have changed quite a lot since we had our child however when we were younger and carefree we would travel a lot! And we went to some amazing places and cities and saw wonders of the world and had adventures like roaming the souks of Tunisia and just exploring the small backstreets and canals of Venice etc etc. AND we went to Disney World as well sprinkled in amongst those trips. I can honestly say I have just as good feelings and memories from those Disney World trips as I do the crazy big adventures. So they did something right. The quality and value have diminished in the last 15, 10, 5, 3 years, anyone who has been going for some time can see that, but I think the secret to enjoying it just as much is to just not allow oneself to think about it too much. Especially when you're there. For instance, the magical express to me was more than a bus ride. I looked forward to that stupid video they would play on the three CRT mini tv screens they had! So now we take MEARS or whatever and it's not the same but I just have to pretend I don't miss it. Take that and rinse and repeat that tactic for all the ways DW is a lesser experience than it was years ago. Eventually I find the moments of nostalgia and old fashioned fun and joy on the trip in different places and I focus on those good feelings. Maybe eventually they'll change it up so bad it looks like Biff's world from Back to the Future 2 instead of what we know and love. Until then I'll spend way too much of my money on a company I am not currently fond of!

PS It doesn't help that I'm also currently in the red by A LOT on their stupid stock! Like...a lot!

 

[lovethesun12]

If we didn't own DVC, we would not be visiting Disney nearly as often as we do now. Which, yes, I know that's why they sell DVC.

We own DVC, and are likely using it to visit universal studios our next trip. I just started planning, but I'm still so unhappy with WDW in so many ways. The main thing I use to enjoy was the all-inclusive feel a vacation had, but now that is completely gone.

I don't think we will find a better resort than PVB off property, so still really glad we bought in there. I could stop going to theme parks altogether (I might) and will still happily enjoy my vacation to PVB.