DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[mkatsy]

I think you are correct and one of my speculations is that part of the team being tasked to deal with this issue include lawyers who are working to ensure that whatever commerical use policy is in place and will be used for enforcement matches all the legal standards it needs to meet.

The 2008 policy, as it was written, is what allowed #2, to occur, because it stated it was based on a membership....and DVC's enforcement looked only at the individual membership level and not across all memberships that an owner has access to.

I think we all need to remember that DVC, if it chooses to enforce something, will have to define it specifically at the time of enforcement for the owner who is targeted.

So, at some point, examples of what triggers enforcement will be known, assuming those targeted report it on social media.....

I don’t think there is going to be a big public declaration it is/or will be handled discreetly behind the scenes. Personally, I don’t believe in letting people get away with scamming the system because the solution to stop them might inconvenience me. It’s like saying a little bit of stealing is ok because I don’t want to wait longer at the check out. If you don’t stop them, they just keep getting bigger and taking more … and what doesn’t affect you today, may very well affect you in the future.

 

[Sandisw]

I don’t think there is going to be a big public declaration it is/or will be handled discreetly behind the scenes. Personally, I don’t believe in letting people get away with scamming the system because the solution to stop them might inconvenience me. It’s like saying a little bit of stealing is ok because I don’t want to wait longer at the check out. If you don’t stop them, they just keep getting bigger and taking more … and what doesn’t affect you today, may very well affect you in the future.

Again, any amendemnt to policy, including the HRR, must be submitted to the state for review and approved. That is what was done in December when they amended the rules for transfers....which you can find it in your member account.

Right now, the POS documents, at least for VGF, and SSR (and I know BCV and potentially others), state that a commerical use policy has been adpoted and that its on record to be reviewed by owners.

If that is no longer true, then the board would have had to submit an amendement to the state removing that clause .and so far, I can not find any such amendement. So, we will need to be notified in some way for policy changes.

This is what I have requested and if I am ignored, then it means I need to contact the Division of Timeshares in FL.

I realize some want to see the defintion of what it means to be a commerical pupose to include many things, but DVC has not identified any of the actions people have mentioned as actually being against the policy.....and, for all we know, they never plan to make those part of the commerical use policy..and as long as they don't? No owner is scamming the system.

So, I simply do not want to see DVC implement HRR rules or adopt a commerical use policy that is not reasonable, and to me, setting the bar low for defining commerical purpose renting is not reasonable, and hopefully, DVC agrees.

 

[JackosinDIS]

I know I asked this the other day, but has anyone else talked with MS to ask for clarification about this? I am still curious to hear if others responses from MS are consistent to the answers I have gotten.

I have not had cause to speak with MS since the updates T&Cs. Next time I do, I will definitely be asking.

I have seen multiple reports on the DVC Facebook groups of people being told by MS that rentals are limited to ‘friends and family’ only, and that DVC will be ‘reporting’ rentals which fall outside of this. So judging by that, I don’t think the information being given to members is particularly consistent and/or accurate.

They are however, doing a good* job of sowing the seeds of doubt into many owners and renters minds.

*the word ‘good’ used here only in the context of DVC achieving their aim (assuming making the rental population lose confidence in renting is what is intended) and not a good job of informing people what the contract says!

 

[Mouseforward]

I have not had cause to speak with MS since the updates T&Cs. Next time I do, I will definitely be asking.

I have seen multiple reports on the DVC Facebook groups of people being told by MS that rentals are limited to ‘friends and family’ only, and that DVC will be ‘reporting’ rentals which fall outside of this. So judging by that, I don’t think the information being given to members is particularly consistent and/or accurate.

They are however, doing a good* job of sowing the seeds of doubt into many owners and renters minds.

*the word ‘good’ used here only in the context of DVC achieving their aim (assuming making the rental population lose confidence in renting is what is intended) and not a good job of informing people what the contract says!

That would scare me if I believed anything I read on Facebook .

I did talk to MS but I just don't feel they are the right source for this info. I would not want to force them "off-script" and get them in trouble. I think we are owed a member communication about anything of this nature from DVC management. They are paid by us after all.

 

[Sandisw]

I have not had cause to speak with MS since the updates T&Cs. Next time I do, I will definitely be asking.

I have seen multiple reports on the DVC Facebook groups of people being told by MS that rentals are limited to ‘friends and family’ only, and that DVC will be ‘reporting’ rentals which fall outside of this. So judging by that, I don’t think the information being given to members is particularly consistent and/or accurate.

They are however, doing a good* job of sowing the seeds of doubt into many owners and renters minds.

*the word ‘good’ used here only in the context of DVC achieving their aim (assuming making the rental population lose confidence in renting is what is intended) and not a good job of informing people what the contract says!

Appreciate the feedback, so yes, at least that supports some level of inconsistency!! I know I have read that several owners have followed up with emails to DVC about this and that the MS CM's are giving inaccurate information.

 

[mkatsy]

I have seen multiple reports on the DVC Facebook groups of people being told by MS that rentals are limited to ‘friends and family’ only, and that DVC will be ‘reporting’ rentals which fall outside of this. So judging by that, I don’t think the information being given to members is particularly consistent and/or accurate.

Did more than one person mention they heard the word “reporting”?

 

[Judique]

Well, remember that the points charts are pretty well set when the resort opens and can't be changed, other than moving points costs around from one season to another. So that's why the BWV points costs, especially for SV studios, are such a bargain relative to the newer resorts - BWV's charts were set in 1996, and the villas there were more expensive than the same size at OKW, but they're cheap now in relation to VGF and later resorts. Rack rate at BWV isn't dependent on what it was in 1996.

Studios were cheap then and still cheap!

With regard to Disney prices whether it is standard view or preferred view, BW is a bargain when you start looking at all the newer resort point charts. All the older resorts are pretty much bargains.

When I drive down I 95 and stop for the night on my way to Disney, the cash cost of a room (that I will sleep in) is now closer to $200 rather than below $100 and it's been that way for a while. My BW dues are close to the $10 range but multiplied by the number of points from November through February, my BWV room costs less per night than the roadside Marriott or IHG or Hyatt.

I'd like to see bots taken care of, spec rentals gone and the commercial renting stopped, but will it happen? I doubt it.

What I do know is that I can get a room at BWV at present, whether it is a standard, a garden or a boardwalk view. And if alone I want studios, but I am point rich enough that I can move up to a larger room. I consider myself fortunate.

 

[Mouseforward]

Did more than one person mention they heard the word “reporting”?

This is what perplexes me about the checkbox , if it had 2 options, Use by owner/ family or rental, then they could report on it.

It is a checkbox that does not let you make the reservation if you don't check it. So your report will be 100% said it was for personal use - as each person understands what the personal use definition is.

 

[mkatsy]

Oh absolutely… but I think hearing “I’m going to report you” is encouraging because it implies that there is consequence after I report you. Now, it might just be one overzealous cast member flexing on people but if people are starting to hear this regularly I would feel like something is happening behind the scenes vs. them putting up a fake check box to appease people and it ends there.

 

[Brianstl]

DVC doesn’t have to tell you what they mean by “commercial purposes”. The term already has an accepted legal definition that is the use of products, property, or information to induce another person to engage in a commercial transaction. So that means the documents are stating that using your points to induce another person to engage in a commercial transaction is “commercial purposes”. “Commercial Puposes” is currently and has always been defined in the documents. When you bought DVC you accepted this even if you weren’t aware of it.

 

[Mouseforward]

DVC doesn’t have to tell you what they mean by “commercial purposes”. The term already has an accepted legal definition that is the use of products, property, or information to induce another person to engage in a commercial transaction. So that means the documents are stating that using your points to induce another person to engage in a commercial transaction is “commercial purposes”. “Commercial Puposes” is currently and has always been defined in the documents. When you bought DVC you accepted this even if you weren’t aware of it.

You have yet to explain why DvC says you can rent, but not for commercial purposes?

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Studios were cheap then and still cheap!

With regard to Disney prices whether it is standard view or preferred view, BW is a bargain when you start looking at all the newer resort point charts. All the older resorts are pretty much bargains.

When I drive down I 95 and stop for the night on my way to Disney, the cash cost of a room (that I will sleep in) is now closer to $200 rather than below $100 and it's been that way for a while. My BW dues are close to the $10 range but multiplied by the number of points from November through February, my BWV room costs less per night than the roadside Marriott or IHG or Hyatt.

I'd like to see bots taken care of, spec rentals gone and the commercial renting stopped, but will it happen? I doubt it.

What I do know is that I can get a room at BWV at present, whether it is a standard, a garden or a boardwalk view. And if alone I want studios, but I am point rich enough that I can move up to a larger room. I consider myself fortunate.

I just looked at Boardwalk Villas and it's nice. Not Grand Floridian or Riviera but certainly above Old Key West.
I may have to reconsider staying at Boardwalk. Google says it's a ten minute walk to Epcot which works for us.

Point wise, it is reasonable. A one bedroom is a little more tan Old Key West but not by a lot.

 

[Mouseforward]

I just looked at Boardwalk Villas and it's nice. Not Grand Floridian or Riviera but certainly above Old Key West.
I may have to reconsider staying at Boardwalk. Google says it's a ten minute walk to Epcot which works for us.

Point wise, it is reasonable. A one bedroom is a little more tan Old Key West but not by a lot.

And the good/bad part is four of those 10 minutes could be just getting from your room to the lobby.

 

[Sandisw]

DVC doesn’t have to tell you what they mean by “commercial purposes”. The term already has an accepted legal definition that is the use of products, property, or information to induce another person to engage in a commercial transaction. So that means the documents are stating that using your points to induce another person to engage in a commercial transaction is “commercial purposes”. “Commercial Puposes” is currently and has always been defined in the documents. When you bought DVC you accepted this even if you weren’t aware of it.

And, it is defined in the contract that it shall include a "pattern of rental activity that rises to the level that board can reasonable define as being a commerical enterprise or purpose".

So, you are right, the information is there and if they accuse you of violating it, they have to tell you what patterns they see that cause them to make the determination.

They don't just to say you violated it without explaining what you did....we, as owners have a right to know what they used, whether we agree with it or not.

But, its irrelvant, because I am confident that DVC will apply standards that many will feel is reasonable....

 

[Sandisw]

Oh absolutely… but I think hearing “I’m going to report you” is encouraging because it implies that there is consequence after I report you. Now, it might just be one overzealous cast member flexing on people but if people are starting to hear this regularly I would feel like something is happening behind the scenes vs. them putting up a fake check box to appease people and it ends there.

What I can say is that I encourage owners to contact DVC directly and talk with supervisors or send emails.....those are all recorded, and answers being given will shed light on some of the vagueness.

It will be interesting to see if the information I get in response from my letter matches the information I have been told, a few times now, by MS.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Deleted

 

[IMMkXLVI]

What I can say is that I encourage owners to contact DVC directly and talk with supervisors or send emails.....those are all recorded, and answers being given will shed light on some of the vagueness.

It will be interesting to see if the information I get in response from my letter matches the information I have been told, a few times now, by MS.

I dunno, I think that's how your name gets added to The List. If it were a restaurant, it is akin to sending food back. You have to know what you get the second time has a little somthin' "extra".

 

[DonMacGregor]

I don’t think anyone has suggested that brokers or owners using them weren’t following Florida law. What people are saying is Disney has tools available to them to destroy their business.

No, but it's a popular straw man.

What WAS said (or at least strongly implied so as not hurt anyone's feel feels) was that once a broker engages in a buy, strip, and flip operation, they are now an owner just like anyone else, and subject to the same rules as any other owner, as well as any criteria Disney employs to determine commercial activity.

If you buy, strip, and flip, you'd be hard-pressed to argue that the contract wasn't purchased exclusively as a commercial endeavor. It was never intended to be used for "personal" use, all of the points (not some arbitrary percentage) were used on rental reservations, and there is a pattern of engaging in the practice (the contracts are always resold, the points are always used to secure rental reservations, and 100% of the points are used for other than personal use).

 

[Sandisw]

I dunno, I think that's how your name gets added to The List. If it were a restaurant, it is akin to sending food back. You have to know what you get the second time has a little somthin' "extra".

Hahaha! Oh, I am sure I made the DVC PITA list years ago! No skin off my back because if I am going to take a position on something, I am always going to try and have something to back it up, even if my interpretation gets proven wrong down the line.

 

[Sandisw]

No, but it's a popular straw man.

What WAS said (or at least strongly implied so as not hurt anyone's feel feels) was that once a broker engages in a buy, strip, and flip operation, that are now an owner just like anyone else, and subject to the same rules as any other owner, as well as any criteria Disney employs to determine commercial activity.

If you buy, strip, and flip, you'd be hard-pressed to argue that the contract wasn't purchased exclusively as a commercial endeavor. It was never intended to be used for "personal" use, all of the points (not some arbitrary percentage) were used on rental reservations, and there is a pattern of engaging in the practice (the contracts are always resold, the points are always used to secure rental reservations, and 100% of the points are used for other than personal use).

I know I had that take at one point until the new language of eithe RIV, or CFW (or both?) included that as an example.....it certainly put owners on notice that they can use this against owners...

I thnk the enforcing of the one transfer rule in/out certainly seems to be aimed for this purpose

Plus, now that @KAT4DISNEY shared her experience, DVC obviously does monitor it....