DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[mkatsy]

I think the context of the contract supports a different version of the word. This is related to who owes sales tax, isn’t it?

Technically if we are saying that any time you lease real property, you are a business then it would conflict with the entire chapter of FL 718 which discusses an owner renting out their condo.

It would mean that every owner in FL who rents their house is considered a business in the state of FL?

Just like personal use can me “ones own use” but in the contract is means “using the unit for a vacation purposes” by owners, guests, leasees, and exchangers.

Even DVC does not use the word business this way…and I have had enough conversations with them to feel 100% confident saying that.

ETA: but where does this discuss timeshare points based rentals? I’ll read it…thanks

Yes! You are supposed to collect and file taxes … now, nobody in the history of forever enforces this, so it’s not on anyone “to do” list, but technically the statute is on the books.

 

[Mouseforward]

The T & C says nothing about the member operating a business or enterprise. You agree you are not making the reservation for a commercial purpose. Renting out your points to anyone can legally be considered commercial purposes by Disney and is why they intentionally didn’t provide an example of commercial purposes while they did provide a description of personal use. They don’t want to limit what rentals they can consider commercial purposes.

Other timeshare companies have previously instituted similar Terms & Conditions. They normally start with a warning letter to any member they believe has rented out points. Then each additional offense has an escalating scale of time the member is not allowed to make a reservation for anyone besides for those on the deed.

DVC specifically allows renting , just not for commercial purposes if they thought that all renting was commercial , they would not have made the distinction.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Isn't the TRT already paid by our dues by Disney when our points are used for rooms? We're not talking about Air B&Bs here. I'm not talking about personal taxes on the sales of rentals. I'm referencing specifically the argument on TRT specifically.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes! You are supposed to collect and file taxes … now, nobody in the history of forever enforces this, so it’s not on anyone “to do” list, but technically the statute is on the books.

Sure....but this is not related to timeshare points rentals which I am still trying to find. I just read it and I take this to be defining "business" as to what actions would require you to owe sales tax, especially since it says that a coporation leasing to another coporation under a larger corporation isn't counted as a business based on this statue...

 

[xdan0920]

If I've understood posts in this thread, DVC allows renting to the extent to cover dues.

It's a simple issue of math. Generally speaking, that means half of your points. For some, perhaps less and for others more but very close to half. So while it may seem like a lot, half isn't exactly making someone rich. No one is going to buy Club 33 renting half their points. Not even those with 8000 points.

What does this have to do with anything? Getting rich? So if you don’t get rich, it’s all good? Bizarre.

And I think it would be extremely hard for DVC to even attempt to say one rental, even every year is frequent or even regular enough to be considered a business, given one’s right to rent.

This is getting exhausting. You continue to act as if you have to be running a point rental “business” to be in violation. And look, I get it, from your point of view. But that is 100% not what Disney has said, and even more so, it’s not what they are saying now. DVC is for personal use. Regular and/or frequent renting of your points falls outside of personal use. It doesn’t matter if you’re making a living off it.

 

[mkatsy]

Sure....but this is not related to timeshare points rentals which I am still trying to find. I just read it and I take this to be defining "business" as to what actions would require you to owe sales tax, especially since it says that a coporation leasing to another coporation under a larger corporation isn't counted as a business based on this statue...

“points” don’t exist on their own, they are a representation of your fractional ownership, which the state of Florida has classified as real property.

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

Except reducing calls to MS was the main reason they changed from check out day to check in plus 7.

Owners were calling in daily to book to ensure no gaps in their trip.

I don’t see them ever returning to calling in as the priority for booking.

The best option IMOfor those hard to get rooms is the special seasons list for the high demand times like December.

I get that some new owners don’t have enough points to do more than studios, but unfortunately, they don’t own a product that treats room sizes differently when it comes to booking.

So, if they can do something about the large point owners who are clearly renting thousands of points then some of the additional things they do, like taking hard to book rooms to spec rent, using bots and walking, will naturally happen less frequently.

The bigger unknown is even with them no longer doing those things, will there actually be a meaningful change in the success rate for those trying for those rooms.

Are you saying you want to try and get your reservation at 8am via phone and not online? How many MS operators would DVC need to hire to handle the call volume? Do you think only members who want hard to get rooms will call in while the rest would wait til 9 to use the online system? I don’t. I really believe it would be much more frustrating to be on hold on the phone for an hour just to find those who waited to book online got the room you were on hold for anyway.
For me, I’m not convinced that eliminating commercial renters will make a dent in 8am availability for hard to get rooms… I am against commercial renting based on principle.

I don’t want to do that, no. I agree it’ll be pretty annoying. But I think I’d accept it if it meant slowing or stopping commercial renters. We can agree to disagree that there would be a difference if all commercial renting, especially spec renting, is stopped. No way to know until it’s done. And maybe it’s not a crazy difference but I’d be happy to go back to what I heard it was like 10-15yrs ago where some rooms were hard but not impossible or walked all year round.

And of course, those who want to profit from renting will also try at 8am but they’ll be severely limited unless they also spend tons of money on Human Resources to call in and book rooms everyday and each call would take time and allow others to jump in in front of them. Right now they are practically limitless.

And to yours and Sandi’s point about how much it would cost to hire MS cast members, something they wanted to get rid of by implementing the online booking system…you’re right. I’m sure it’s something DVC would actively try to avoid doing because it would be expensive and a pain.

But their fix of an online system (amongst other less easily fixable things, ie point charts) is also an expensive pain for them now that they’re losing money to commercial renters who are choosing to not book cash hotel rooms or even buying DVC when you don’t need to, you can just rent!

How much do they gain by doing something like this? I have no idea but we can’t say that Disney isn’t leaving money on the table right now by not curbing the flourishing business that has become DVC rentals in the last few years. And I think they’re definitely noticing.

All this aside, I’m not saying they’ll do this, in fact, I’m sure they won’t. But it’s not the worst idea I’ve heard. It doesn’t really limit owners, it doesn’t go against HRR or the POS. It doesn’t take away renting but it does make it more difficult for those who have made a business out of this.

I think I’d be ok with a special season list, too. The only issue with a lottery is these commercial businesses likely have the ability to generate multiple spots in the random queue, and so still have a much better chance than the average owner. But it’s better than nothing.

At some point something has to give cause we can’t all be against commercial renting in principle but not willing to do something about it.

 

[Mouseforward]

Isn't the TRT already paid by our dues by Disney when our points are used for rooms? We're not talking about Air B&Bs here. I'm not talking about personal taxes on the sales of rentals. I'm referencing specifically the argument on TRT specifically.

Timeshares used by the owner are exempt in Florida from TNT , timeshares or pretty much any dwelling rented for less than 30 days are subject to TNT.

This is indisputable in Fl Law. It is written in clear plain text.

The issue being discussed is if you rent and pay TNT does that make you a commercial enterprise. People are confusing tax rules with your contract with disney thinking that since you paid tax you are a business ( a false assumption ) therefore all rentals are against DVC rules as they are all commercial . This is not supported by the POS which allows rentals, but not if they deemed to be commercial by Disney - that clearly means Disney does not consider all rentals commercial .

 

[Mouseforward]

This is getting exhausting. You continue to act as if you have to be running a point rental “business” to be in violation. And look, I get it, from your point of view. But that is 100% not what Disney has said, and even more so, it’s not what they are saying now. DVC is for personal use. Regular and/or frequent renting of your points falls outside of personal use. It doesn’t matter if you’re making a living off it.

Your making up a definition of Regular and/or frequent renting of your points to mean yearly- this was not defined by DVC. Regular and/or frequent renting of your points could mean 3 times a year or more than 20 times.

edit - I do agree that making a living is not a criteria , you can be a business and not make a profit

 

[Brianstl]

See my post above…the terms of the POS supersede the T and C…which does use commercial enterprise.

DVC can not limit reservations to only those on the deed…nor would they even try…no idea about other timeshare contracts, but ours would expressly prevent that absent a vote from owners.

The POS states that they have the right to change the terms

See my post above…the terms of the POS supersede the T and C…which does use commercial enterprise.

DVC can not limit reservations to only those on the deed…nor would they even try…no idea about other timeshare contracts, but ours would expressly prevent that absent a vote from owners.

 

[Mouseforward]

The POS states that they have the right to change the terms

Florida law Section (718.110 (13) of the Florida Condominium Act) says you can not change the terms of rental restrictions with out a vote of the members to update the POS and existing members who do not agree are exempt - that trumps that clause for anyone who purchased before the POS is modified.

 

[Brianstl]

Florida law Section (718.110 (13) of the Florida Condominium Act) says you can not change the terms of rental restrictions with out a vote of the members to update the POS and existing members who do not agree are exempt - that trumps that clause for anyone who purchased before the POS is modified.

The current POS already grants them that power.

 

[Sandisw]

What does this have to do with anything? Getting rich? So if you don’t get rich, it’s all good? Bizarre.

This is getting exhausting. You continue to act as if you have to be running a point rental “business” to be in violation. And look, I get it, from your point of view. But that is 100% not what Disney has said, and even more so, it’s not what they are saying now. DVC is for personal use. Regular and/or frequent renting of your points falls outside of personal use. It doesn’t matter if you’re making a living off it.

I have done extensive work with them over the years, I was at the meeting in December, I asked questions of them, and was even paraphrased in the DVC news article.

What was said was "The other category is someone who is doing it commercially. They own a lot of points and it’s a frequent occurrence. Nothing in the updated T & C contridicts or even hints that this is not the target because the phrase personal use is not "frequently or regularly" renting/selling reservations backs up the boards December statement.

I had conversations after the meeting, and spent close to an hour on the phone last year with DVC going over every element of the contract that discusses rentals....and yes, they have stated directly to me that renting to the level that one is seen as a "business" is what is not allowed....its the large point owners who have gotten around the policies in place to rent for the sole purpose of making money...

The new T & C states that if there is a conflict, then the POS supersedes it and the POS, whether some want to agree or not uses the word "commerical enterprise".....and that is the standard DVC has to meet. And, I will always use that term because my contracts use it. You will also notice that I never use the word "profit" because that has nothing to do with it...its the volume one is renting that rises to the level that you have crossed from renting under the personal use clause of the contract to renting in a way that is seen as a commerical enterprise/purpose.

Now, none of us know how they plan to define and enforce what makes ones "pattern of rental activity evidence of a commerical enterprise or purpse" but DVC is required to meet that standard and I guarantee you those words will be used with owners at whatever level they decide...

We know I have requested the policy, via certified mail, and since its been received, they have 10 days to respond to me....so we shall see...

I can say that the CM's I have talked to on the phone the past few weeks have indeed all indicated that there is no new policy in place when I asked if owners would be getting any updates.....

I am still hoping we get some more actual reports from owners who have contacted DVC or MS (besides me) for clarification of what "frequent or regular" looks like....but, so far, no one seems to be given any specifics.....and I have not seen any reports regarding enforcement happening for anyone...

 

[Sandisw]

The POS states that they have the right to change the terms

They have the right to change certain things in the contract, like the HRR and such....but they do not have the right to make material changes to the contract without a vote from owners.

But, the right to rent, the right for owners to books reservations for guests, and themselves, is part of the declaration of the condominimum, and in other parts of the POS and those would be seen as a material change, and thus require a vote.

But, you are correct that they can change some things like limiting modifications, they can change the home resort period to be larger, but it can never be smaller than one month.

The clause you posted is referencing the access to the use of the reservation system and that how they decide to set that up can be modified and changed....like when they went from 11 months from check out day to 11 months plus 7 from check in day.

We gave them the right to do that....but not to change any element of the POS that they want...unless it falls under a non material change and then they don't need a vote for owners.....preventing owners from renting or limiting renting beyond the commerical enterprise/purpose language in the declaration....would require a vote...

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I would have replied , well thanks for your permission to give you money. Actually I would have hung up and bought resale.

I've done resale more than direct. Might also be why they were snippy. lol However I did mention to my guide that it seemed way to difficult to try and give Disney my $$$'s.

 

[Sandisw]

“points” don’t exist on their own, they are a representation of your fractional ownership, which the state of Florida has classified as real property.

I understand that but the earlier post said that FL law states that renting of timeshare points is considered a commerical activity and I wanted to read the statute that says that....I can't find that statement anywhere...

 

[Brianstl]

The required disclosure near the beginning of the POS makes it clear that there should be no expectation that the ownership interest maybe rented.

 

[Sandisw]

The required disclosure near the beginning of the POS makes it clear that there should be no expectation that the ownership interest maybe rented.

Meaning, no guarantee that one will be able to find a renter.....because they are competing with Disney....but FL 718 for condos give owners the right to rent, the contract gives us the right to rent....DVC just gets to decide how much renting one does shifts one into the commerical enterprise arena.

Now, the RIV and beyond POS documents are a little more direct and include examples of what DVC can use, which puts those owners on notice for things that the pre RIV POS does not...

Not that I expect DVC to come up with different thresholds and enforcments for pre and post RIV...but they definitely have taken steps, especially with the trust document and CFW, to tighten the rules and restrictions when it comes to limiting renting....plus, for CFW, because its not a leashold condo, IIRC, it doesn't even fall under FL 718...

ETA: Here is the specific language from the VGF POS which is the Condo Rules & Regs...this document can not be changed by DVD at their discretion....it explains why they can't prevent owners from using their membership for others, and a definition of the word "commerical purpose" for this resort. Notice, it says that the commerical purpose "shall include pattern of rental activity"....which means, at least for a VGF owner, if one is accused of violating the clause, they have a right to have DVC explain what pattern of rental activity exists" for them to determine it. Now, the board remains in charge of making the definition, but as a VGF owner, I expect them to include the elements my contract requires them to include when they make whatever definition they do. I will always contend that one rental can not be a pattern...

 

[Mouseforward]

@Brianstl the correct question to ask is : If Disney asked the Florida legislators to carve an exception to the rule for timeshares would they?

History says yes.

 

[Brianstl]

on

Meaning, no guarantee that one will be able to find a renter.....because they are competing with Disney....but FL 718 for condos give owners the right to rent, the contract gives us the right to rent....DVC just gets to decide how much renting one does shifts one into the commerical enterprise arena.

Now, the RIV and beyond POS documents are a little more direct and include examples of what DVC can use, which puts those owners on notice for things that the pre RIV POS does not...

Not that I expect DVC to come up with different thresholds and enforcments for pre and post RIV...but they definitely have taken steps, especially with the trust document and CFW, to tighten the rules and restrictions when it comes to limiting renting....plus, for CFW, because its not a leashold condo, IIRC, it doesn't even fall under FL 718...

The contract gives you the ability to rent but removes the expectation to rent. That means they can take they can take that ability away at the Management's discretion without a vote and they explicitly later state as much in POS when it comes to reservations.