DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[EPCOT Terran]

900 points available for rent, experienced renter with a breakdown of added costs to walk.

But they aren’t an LLC so it’s all kosher.

I've never rented but if I do my first post will probably read "Inexperienced renter with 150 points to rent. I hope this works."

 

[mkatsy]

If by "no kids" you accept the dual meaning of never having had them & those that do but the children are of adult age and have moved on/out.

You think those grade school kids are expensive? wait until you are picking up bar tabs for them in EPCOT they don’t go away, they come back with a fresh batch of little people. Then you need bigger rooms and you end up buying more points.

 

[Mouseforward]

You think those grade school kids are expensive? wait until you are picking up bar tabs for them in EPCOT they don’t go away, they come back with a fresh batch of little people. Then you need bigger rooms and you end up buying more points.

I bet grandparents are the #1 demo at DVC. I don't think it is a recent trend, if you search youtube some of the the original DVC VCS tape is loaded and they seem more adult child / grandparent age ( or maybe people looked older back then). To me OKW has a Florida grandparents house theme.

I don't know too many new parents that can swing DVC right now, they are mostly trying to figure out how to afford a home.

 

[lowlight]

SAP owners aren't an issue as long as you are able to plan your vacations ahead and use your home resort priority. The benefit of SAP owners is the resort(s) they own at are often available for last minute (within 7 month) bookings. So if your plans change you can hopefully find something to swap into at a different resort.

I agree, if you utilize your home resort period, sleep around points aren’t an issue. I think a lot of the issue I have with it is Disney sold resorts that nobody wants to actually stay at, including the owners, so at 7 months there is a very large one way exodus of points. When I owned at VGF, I’d often try to trade in to Poly, or BC at 7 months. I imagine many at Poly try to trade in to VGF at 7 months, opening up a fairly equal trade in availability. Nobody is swapping from the top 5 resorts to SSR at 7 months. Nobody. This leads, I assume, to a ton of SSR and OKW rooms being snatched on II exchange or going to breakage. It’s like having the worst gift at a Yankee swap.

 

[Sandisw]

Or, we could just punish commercial renters. The narrative steering is out of control in these threads.

Be honest …what is your definition of an owner renting in a way that makes them a comemrucal enterpise and not just a renter within their rights?

Plus, some of the ideas here are being presented as a way to help with some of the issues those large point owners who rent thousands are doing that impact owners.

If the point difference between RV and PV at BWV, wasn’t as great…or even the same, and only slept 4 like they originally did, they would be less attractive to those who target them.

So, it would automatically help because right now, getting any studio at BWV most of the year is not hard at 11 months.

 

[Sandisw]

It's difficult to be certain, because the Florida law is written with traditional week timeshares and have only some references to point time systems. So it is subject to interpretation until someone challenges it in court.

I am convinced 100% they cannot raise the lockoff premium.
90% they cannot reallocate across units.
60% that they cannot reallocate between studios and 1BR within the same unit.

But, even if legal...
I have not studied all units in all resorts (because I have a life), but I think at most resorts units are made of different number of room types. A reallocation between room types would be possible (if legal) only if all units are declared with the same number of 1BR and studios. And since DVC would probably need to do it across all resorts, saves us from a reallocation.

There is also the opportunity for Disney of doing so. If studios cost more, then the cost of entry in the system is higher. Studios are the most popular because fewer people have the means (or the will to spend them) for 1BR.

I’m close to you in my thinking and research.

The hard part as been finding clear evidence about units staying equal for sales purposes and adjusting points for the point charts for stays across units, given that we do have calendar changes that impact things.


So, I’m at 50/50 for all areas except the lock off premium.

I definitely agree they would have a hard time winning that in court and the fact that it didn’t take much to get them to agree to reverse it.

While, no one has challenged at the court level, people have questioned those other areas and DVC has held firm that it was allowed.

 

[Sandisw]

Since when? Weren't people freaking out about Poly 1 because they were afraid points might someday get reallocated off of the Bungalows and onto the Studios?

Yes, and not everyone is in agreement that DVD can’t do it as long as they keep total points the same.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Yeah, I think our thinking is pretty much in line. I’m certainly not saying that there won’t be a slight change, but it won’t be on the magnitude that will keep people happy. I understand there’s people who just want rules followed, and I also agree with that position, but I don’t think it’s gonna solve their problem.

I’m of the opinion that some mistakes were made on the earlier resorts, and Disney will fix that in 2042.

We only currently know that 20 reservations were allowed before a review would take place. So if you rented below that you were good, AND you didn’t break the rules you actually followed them.

IMO as long as owners continue to do so they are good. If Disney have a problem with it, they can tab on our shoulders and tell us. It’s impossible to follow rules which are unknown. If you follow those that you do know not even Disney will blame you - at least not initially.

There are 18 value studios but still, there are far more owners than there are value studios.

Sorry you are correct. My reference to 5 rooms were club level rooms. There are indeed 18 values, 8 dedicated and 10LO

 

[Cyberc1978]

To many, it's disheartening to miss out on the room you wanted - you were online early, had your search all set up, etc., only for the room to be sniped from you. And then, you see it for rent on a broker site.

Why spend all the money to buy in if you can just rent the room from a broker? No worrying about refreshing right at 8AM, no paying dues, just let the brokers and their bots book the room for you.

Are you okay with Disney renting the exact same room then? Or is that not okay?
That’s regardless if it’s allowed or not within the rules.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, correcting the imbalance of point charts should be done if possible (AK value, BW std, 1BR vs other sizes, etc), but the biggest fix which IMHO takes care of 95% of the issues is eliminating/reducing spec reservations. Obviously there would be some type of negative impact to owners, most likely by reducing the number of name changes allowable.

I really feel that if someone is renting out their points, even if it is 100% of their points, but they are renting them directly into someone's name it really does not affect the overall system. Most people renting are looking for less than 7 months out and it is the same opportunity that everyone else has. The points in the system are getting used as intended. If someone wants to work with an owner and book in their name for a Race or other popular time at 11 months I am fine with that. However an owner booking 10 studios during a Race and renting them out over the next 6 months, I believe this is what does damage to the system. Just my 2 cents.

And I think it’s a pretty reasonable metric they could use.

Look at the number of times it happens and when the name changes appear to far exceed a normal owner’s practices, then it’s a pretty good clue that they have a pattern of activity that leads one to believe they are using the membership for commercial purposes.

This way, it doesn’t impact the flexibility for the average owner…which the board agreed they dont want to do if they make operations changes.

They want to stop those large point owners who have clearly found a way to turn their DVC memberships into a business.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

You think those grade school kids are expensive? wait until you are picking up bar tabs for them in EPCOT they don’t go away, they come back with a fresh batch of little people. Then you need bigger rooms and you end up buying more points.

Then we'd best make use of the years between college freshman and "I do"!

Once they have their own little people, we'll encourage them to start their own Disney/Universal tradition.

 

[muppets3d]

Are you okay with Disney renting the exact same room then? Or is that not okay?
That’s regardless if it’s allowed or not within the rules.

Disney owns points at all resorts and they take points from owners when owners trade for a cruise or an annual pass or whatever. I don't remember the last time I saw a Jambo value studio available for cash on disneyworld.com, though.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

This Summer Disney is selling deluxe villas for cash for pretty close to rental prices. That obviously makes the math of buying direct points horrible, but it pretty much kills the rental market if this keeps up for long enough.

I’ve been thinking that Disney wants to drive out commercial renters because it’s forcing them to reduce deluxe hotel prices to compete, but I guess a big enough decline in travel to WDW would shake out a lot of people who are renting to make money either way.

I would rather take away the prize and level the points out, than watch those rooms being posted by obvious commercial renters.

If you look at the 7-8mo availability for studios at BW in Jan it’s pretty sketchy, and there appear to be people (I would speculate many renters) sweeping up almost all studios right at 7mo.

I’m not convinced leveling out room points would fix the problem as much as it would increase demand on P/G rooms— at many times of year they are still extremely profitable compared to other studios around WDW, especially ones within walking distance of a theme park. I think Disney’s primary concern is hotel occupancy, but I think the secondary concern is that more and more people are becoming “small time” commercial renters, realizing instead of selling a contract they can “trade” the points through 3rd party listing sites (or their own social media groups) and once the BW standard studios are gone they are moving into BC and BW P/G, and the problem will continue to snowball.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Disney owns points at all resorts and they take points from owners when owners trade for a cruise or an annual pass or whatever. I don't remember the last time I saw a Jambo value studio available for cash on disneyworld.com, though.

Oh I’ve seen the value studio plenty of times. Maybe they take them less but they certainly take them.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

I agree, if you utilize your home resort period, sleep around points aren’t an issue. I think a lot of the issue I have with it is Disney sold resorts that nobody wants to actually stay at, including the owners, so at 7 months there is a very large one way exodus of points. When I owned at VGF, I’d often try to trade in to Poly, or BC at 7 months. I imagine many at Poly try to trade in to VGF at 7 months, opening up a fairly equal trade in availability. Nobody is swapping from the top 5 resorts to SSR at 7 months. Nobody. This leads, I assume, to a ton of SSR and OKW rooms being snatched on II exchange or going to breakage. It’s like having the worst gift at a Yankee swap.

This reads true for us. We bought only at the resorts we want to stay at. Out of the 13 options in Florida, we'd prefer just two. If push comes to shove and we have to look outside our home resorts, then I'll pick OKW. We'd never stay at any of the cabins, lodges or animal kingdoms. If we were to pick up any other contracts, maybe Bay Lake Tower or Polynesian but I doubt Polynesian. Isn't that the one where the room doors face out to the monorail? I don't really like that idea.

 

[muppets3d]

Oh I’ve seen the value studio plenty of times. Maybe they take them less but they certainly take them.

I'm sure they do. There are tons of them for rent on broker sites too.

 

[Sandisw]

Right but if renting were curbed, the new owners of those points wouldn't all be looking for standard view studios. Certainly many would but some would want other room types. Of course, if they're looking for 2 bedrooms that won't solve anything because all the 2-bedroom units at Boardwalk are lockoffs.

And this is why they are two different issues but can be tangentially related.

As I said, all spec renting…which I consider an owner who has a reservation booked but now advertises it for rental…automatically make them using the membership outside the rules and DVC has certainly never said it’s not okay.

They affirmed to me that they recognize that lead guest changes is part of the flexibility of DVC and that those are the kinds of things they would consider before making any operations changes.

So, I hope and IMO expect, DVC to come back to the patterns of an owner because if they are renting in large volumes, and also spec rent high demand rooms, stopping the number of rentals that are above and beyond what should be allowed, will prevent them from doing it to the degree they are.

But, there are other large point owners who may be renting thousands who never spec rent and just do on demand rentals.

Stop the volume, and some of the other things they do, like spec renting and walking, will be reduced.

I honestly will be shocked to see DVC tell owners they can’t change the name of a lead guest.

 

[Sandisw]

A quick google search that would back what he said ( Business insider and Tampa bay times have done articles on this trend) , And Disney execs have also confirmed 40-50% of WDW world guests do not have kids. So more evidence out there to back what he said than to refute it.

And finding it would take less time than posting snarky, unhelpful comments like this.

And I can tell you based on my new job and the info being provided to us from Disney, there are a lot more adult only guests at WDW and using DCL!

 

[Sandisw]

900 points available for rent, experienced renter with a breakdown of added costs to walk.

But they aren’t an LLC so it’s all kosher.

See, this is where it’s tough because renting points is allowed and unless one has the specific info on that owner and how often they rent and how many points they own, one can’t say if they are or are not renting at an inappropriate level.

DVC has told owners what level of renting is allowed and when enforcement would kick in.

So, until DVC explains what actions actual trigger a violation, the owner may not be doing anything wrong.

ETA: regardless of what any of us think the definition of renting for commercial reasons should be, if DVC tells owners XYZ is allowed, then it is.

If they use words like frequently or regularly and don’t give context, then they are telling owners to make a judgement call on their own.

IMO, I think that’s what this is…they want owners to decide their own interpretation.


Call or email MS and ask them what it means to be rent frequently or regularly. So far, they have refused to give any clues as to what that means.

 

[Sandisw]

Are you okay with Disney renting the exact same room then? Or is that not okay?
That’s regardless if it’s allowed or not within the rules.

And we know they do indeed offer cash guests the value rooms!!