DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[muppets3d]

If I - as an individual - list my points or rental via a third party broker’s site (like the board sponsor’s) - then the site is not the member renting, I am…and only my membership should be subject to the commercial review. That said, true commercial renters would NOT use a third party site to rent because the commissions would eat their profit.
So - discounting the third party sites and members renting small number of points or infrequently over the years - I really do think there’s a minuscule number of true commercial renters as per Disney’s loose interpretation.

Obviously true because Disney is not doing anything about it right now. If we are assuming that they are upholding the contract they wrote, then all the activity we see on rental sites is 100% kosher. Brokers owning thousands of points by putting contracts in employee names to get around maximums, locking up popular room types in walks all year long, booking rooms at the 11 month window and making them available to renters on a speculative basis - all personal use and not commercial use at all.

I think by any reasonable person's definition that is commercial activity, and thus Disney is being derelict in their responsibility to enforce their contract. But they'll never admit to it.

 

[TCRAIG]

So discounting basically all renting there is only a small amount of rental activity. Got it!

No - what I am saying is that INDIVIDUALS renting - either by themselves or thru a 3rd party - is and always has been allowed by DVC…and that true commercial renters - the kind not allowed by DVC - is a minuscule number via-a-vis the entire number of members renting.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Obviously true because Disney is not doing anything about it right now. If we are assuming that they are upholding the contract they wrote, then all the activity we see on rental sites is 100% kosher. Brokers owning thousands of points by putting contracts in employee names to get around maximums, locking up popular room types in walks all year long, booking rooms at the 11 month window and making them available to renters on a speculative basis - all personal use and not commercial use at all.

I think by any reasonable person's definition that is commercial activity, and thus Disney is being derelict in their responsibility to enforce their contract. But they'll never admit to it.

This is a strawman fallacy. That isn't what the post you quoted was saying. Not by a mile.

 

[muppets3d]

This is a strawman fallacy. That isn't what the post you quoted was saying. Not by a mile.

This is what is going on every day on broker websites that they were talking about. When you go to a broker's site you have no way of knowing how many of the postings advertised are from Uncle Ernie just trying to spend some extra points and how many are made by the broker's bots. So there is no real way to say it's just a small amount of activity. In reality, if it was a small amount of activity, they wouldn't have enough money to sponsor all these Disney blogs and podcasts etc. The truth is there's tons of commercial activity in DVC rentals every single day.

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

 

[xdan0920]

No - what I am saying is that INDIVIDUALS renting - either by themselves or thru a 3rd party - is and always has been allowed by DVC…and that true commercial renters - the kind not allowed by DVC - is a minuscule number via-a-vis the entire number of members renting.

Ah, there’s the rub I suppose.

“true commercial renting”

What does that mean to you exactly?

Disney is now saying, DVC is for personal use, and regular/frequent renting is not allowed.

 

[muppets3d]

Ah, there’s the rub I suppose.

“true commercial renting”

What does that mean to you exactly?

Disney is now saying, DVC is for personal use, and regular/frequent renting is not allowed.

That's what we've spent nearly 3000 posts trying to figure out!

 

[DougEMG]

The thing that would actually solve all of this, which they're not going to do because the entire membership would have a temper tantrum, is dramatically raise the price of Studios and lower the price of 1 bedrooms.

A properly-balanced points chart would have rooms that are equally difficult to book across room types and points seasons. If it's too hard to get a Studio, Studios are too cheap. If it's too hard to book in December, December is too cheap, etc.

ETA: They obviously couldn't do this across resorts because Saratoga Springs is never going to book as quickly as Beach Club, but within the home resort booking window, pricing should be restructured to mitigate disproportionate demand.

Sign me up for cheaper 1 bedrooms and more expensive studios.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I disagree-DVC rental sites are 3rd party clearing houses for individual owners…which under any and all DVC statements concerning rentals is allowed and NOT considered commercial.

We discussed this months ago. The new POS language for the recent resorts has this paragraph:


The phrase “creating, maintaining, or frequent use of a rental or resale website” was of particular interest, as it is part of a semicolon separated list of behavior Disney may conclude is evidence of engagement in commercial activity. Note, it reads “creating, maintaining, OR frequent use.

Not applicable to all resorts, and it could possibly be argued that the language means setting up your own web site to rent your own points, but it breaks up and separates “creating” from “maintaining” and “use of”.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

This is what is going on every day on broker websites that they were talking about. When you go to a broker's site you have no way of knowing how many of the postings advertised are from Uncle Ernie just trying to spend some extra points and how many are made by the broker's bots. So there is no real way to say it's just a small amount of activity. In reality, if it was a small amount of activity, they wouldn't have enough money to sponsor all these Disney blogs and podcasts etc. The truth is there's tons of commercial activity in DVC rentals every single day.

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

But you admit, you have no way to know. Your eyes and your ears may tell you one thing BUT money tells me another.
A commercial owner is looking at overhead. A broker is overhead. Sure, some commercial owners may use brokers but it seems a stretch to say the majority do and that this majority list most if not all of their points with the broker. Perhaps they diversify. List some with a broker, others on forums and others still privately.

We have no way to know but to look at a brokers offering and suggest the vast majority came from X is speculating to support a particular narrative.

 

[Mouseforward]

We discussed this months ago. The new POS language for the recent resorts has this paragraph:

View attachment 977560
The phrase “creating, maintaining, or frequent use of a rental or resale website” was of particular interest, as it is part of a semi-colon separated list of behavior Disney may conclude is evidence of engagement in commercial activity. Note, it reads “creating, maintaining, OR frequent use.

Not applicable to all resorts, and it could possibly be argued that the language means setting up your own web site to rent your own points, but it breaks up and separates “creating” from “maintaining” and “use of”.

The real missing thing is not defining and framing the word 'frequent" that would have made it way too clear.

Frequent use of a resale website....
Repeated or frequent purchase of resale.... - well now we are all going down.

 

[muppets3d]

But you admit, you have no way to know. Your eyes and your ears may tell you one thing BUT money tells me another.
A commercial owner is looking at overhead. A broker is overhead. Sure, some commercial owners may use brokers but it seems a stretch to say the majority do and that this majority list most if not all of their points with the broker. Perhaps they diversify. List some with a broker, others on forums and others still privately.

We have no way to know but to look at a brokers offering and suggest the vast majority came from X is speculating to support a particular narrative.

What you aren't seeing is that in many cases, the commercial owner and the broker are one in the same. That is the problem.

There are some commercial owners who are individuals and use forums or facebook to advertise. But the rental brokers that we all know themselves own thousands of points as well.

 

[Mouseforward]

There are some commercial owners who are individuals and use forums or facebook to advertise. But the rental brokers that we all know themselves own thousands of points as well.

But its a separate cooperation .... so totally legit right?

 

[muppets3d]

But its a separate cooperation .... so totally legit right?

Again, to @TCRAIG's point - Disney isn't doing anything about it, so it must be 100% kosher. So far all they've done is made us all click a check-box when we book a room.

 

[kilik64]

And that took a whole team six months to come up with...

 

[DonMacGregor]

The real missing thing is not defining and framing the word 'frequent" that would have made it way too clear.

Frequent use of a resale website....
Repeated or frequent purchase of resale.... - well now we are all going down.

True, but it is some non-zero number, and the POS language was amended to recognize rental or resale websites as some component of the problem, and a possible metric for determining commercial use activity.

At the very least, the separation of the concepts of “creating a website” versus “use of a website” means they are not just limiting their scrutiny to anyone who creates AND uses a rental website, but also those who create OR use a website.

 

[Mouseforward]

True, but it is some non-zero number, and the POS language was amended to recognize rental or resale websites as some component of the problem, and a possible metric for determining commercial use activity.

At the very least, the separation of the concepts of “creating a website” versus “use of a website” means they are not just limiting their scrutiny to anyone who creates AND uses a rental website, but also those who create or use a website.

And it has language aimed at " repeated purchase and resale" i.e point stripping. Don't forget that.

 

[GoingSince1990]

And that took a whole team six months to come up with...

There were probably a few iterations of "That's too specific! Make it vaguer!"

 

[TCRAIG]

Ah, there’s the rub I suppose.

“true commercial renting”

What does that mean to you exactly?

Disney is now saying, DVC is for personal use, and regular/frequent renting is not allowed.

Disney isn’t ’NOW SAYING’ - it’s what they’ve always said - or at least in the last 15 years that I’ve been buying. What DVC IS saying ( I think) is that they’ve heard members complaining about not being able to reserve their desired rooms at 8am at the 11 month mark due to the perceived effect of commercial renters and that they will endeavor to address this problem by ‘re-enforcing’ their current and loosely defined definition of a commercial renter- which has never included individuals renting in a limited capacity either themselves or via a third party.

 

[DonMacGregor]

And that took a whole team six months to come up with...

What did?

 

[IMMkXLVI]

What you aren't seeing is that in many cases, the commercial owner and the broker are one in the same. That is the problem.

There are some commercial owners who are individuals and use forums or facebook to advertise. But the rental brokers that we all know themselves own thousands of points as well.

That is something I hadn't considered.
It might explain why they offer so little per point vs what they resell for.