DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[IMMkXLVI]

If less than 1% of DVC points are used by the commercial operators to make and sell reservstions (which I think is quite likely to be the case) then I don’t think it is unreasonable for DVC to state that commercial renting “is not a common practice”.

If it were 1% or even a single digit percentage, then how could it be such a big issue? From reading this thread, it seems the centerline issue people have with commercial renters is the spec rental for the studio units. Can 1% of total DVC really use up so many studio units that its effect is felt by the remaining 99% of DVC?

 

[Sandisw]

The responsibility to police this situation is on DVC, and they are derelict in their duty. You can’t fully blame the criminals for breaking laws that aren’t enforced. If DVC would actually do something, any little thing at all, this thread wouldn’t exist.

But again, you can’t accuse someone of breaking a law unless you can define the law.

And at this point, the only definition we have of commercial renting is the 2008 policy and the clarification that frequently or regularly renting is not personal use.

None of us know what enforcement DVC has taken other than owners being directly told that if they stay below the 20 reservations, in a 12 month period, they are fine.

Will that continue to be it? Or, will they use different metrics?

Who knows? But as long as DVC has never identified a behavior as a violation, then there is nothing for them to enforce

 

[xdan0920]

If less than 1% of DVC points are used by the commercial operators to make and sell reservstions (which I think is quite likely to be the case) then I don’t think it is unreasonable for DVC to state that commercial renting “is not a common practice”.

There is a lot of vagueness here, so I'll just focus on one thing. Disney has no said, regular and frequent renting will fall into the commercial bucket, so I think we need to reconsider what we consider a commercial operator.

 

[Sandisw]

Which is pure nonsense, as we all know.

Actually, we don’t because DVC has defined a violation of commercial use policy as more than 20 in a rolling 12 month period. The words frequently or regularly have been added but without context, those mean nothing.

You may not agree that should be it…and that’s fine…but if DVC is looking at memberships and making that statement, it means that their definition appears to be broad.

Could it change? Sure…but so far, DVC has not given any specifics as to what counts.

I am pretty sure my definition of frequently or regularly in the context of renting above what is allowed by law and the contract is certainly much broader than your definition.

And, so far, my contact with MS and the comments made to me, haven’t changed my view.

It would be great to get more examples of people contacting DVC to see what info they are told.

 

[GoingSince1990]

If it were 1% or even a single digit percentage, then how could it be such a big issue? From reading this thread, it seems the centerline issue people have with commercial renters is the spec rental for the studio units. Can 1% of total DVC really use up so many studio units that its effect is felt by the remaining 99% of DVC?

One of the reasons I think the percentage is low is that those studios are so cheap in terms of points per night. The biggest PR problem by far for DVC regarding this issue is that so many people HATE to see commercial operators offering these studios for spec rentals at desirable times when they would like to use these rooms themselves. And fortunately for DVC such operators have big targets on their backs by advertising their reservations on public websites which DVC can see too.

 

[xdan0920]

Actually, we don’t because DVC has defined a violation of commercial use policy as more than 20 in a rolling 12 month period.

You may not agree that should be it…and that’s fine…but if DVC is looking at memberships and making that statement, it means that their definition appears to be broad.

You continue to reach back to 20 years ago and the 20 reservation "rule"

But as far as I can tell, it's more like a guideline, which caused more problems then it solved. I see no reason to believe DVC is using this guideline in 2025.

 

[Sandisw]

You continue to reach back to 20 years ago and the 20 reservation "rule"

But as far as I can tell, it's more like a guideline, which caused more problems then it solved. I see no reason to believe DVC is using this guideline in 2025.

It was not a guideline. As I said, and you are free to ignore my experience, but I spent a lot of time back then, when I bought, learning and discussing this with DVC.

It was the policy…and it was enforced the way it was written.

DVC has never publicly stated they don’t use it…and we know from owners who have been contacted in the past, it was still in play.

There is absolutely no evidence that it is not used by DVC behind the scenes when they have made some decisions.

The contract says a policy is available to request…which I have done, now via certified letter.

Unless DVC comes out and states something is not allowed or we get information from an owner who was told they can’t do X, then we can only go by what information we have.

There has been no official rules changes to the HRR, and some CMs have told owners this isn’t a policy change but rather a way to make sure owners are aware of the rules and they have it on record as such.

There is a reason why we have not heard of enforcement happening…and IMO, it’s not because they are ignoring things..my speculation is that it’s not as easy as one thinks for them to define it appropriately within the context of the contract

ETA: If the board stated it is not a common practice, I would say it’s big clue that they indeed have a metric they use and that they themselves already have an idea…of where the line needs to be drawn.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

You continue to reach back to 20 years ago and the 20 reservation "rule"

But as far as I can tell, it's more like a guideline, which caused more problems then it solved. I see no reason to believe DVC is using this guideline in 2025.

That's the thing, from what I've read here, there hasn't been much at all in the way of guidance from DVC. It may be decades old but the past guidance is the last guidance issued. To borrow from the speeding analogy someone else used, if you're on an interstate and pass a speed limit sign that is worn out, faded and a bit rusty but don't see another sign for the next 20 miles, do you continue along honoring that limit or make up up yourself?

*you know the lawman is waiting patiently right around the point where most people think it's safe to go a bit faster!

 

[lowlight]

Those that don't or have never rented a point are against anyone that does or have, to extent of fabricating motive
with nothing more than their opinion as proof. Hi lowlight.

I’ve been pretty clear on my motive. I have found myself with extra points several times over the years. I’ve rented before, and I think that being able to rent occasionally is a net bonus to members. More often than not, I’ve just invited family members along and treated them to a free room, although that has been a headache at times as well. My position has always been if I were forced at knifepoint to choose between unregulated renting or no renting at all, I think no renting at all fits into the intended usage of DVC more than what we have now (the Wild West of renting) does.

Also, my motivation for being so against mass renting and spec renting is basically gone as I’ve offloaded the two offending contracts and rarely have trouble getting the dates at my last one. If they ever actually fix the rental problem, maybe I’d buy back in, but honestly rentals are so cheap and convenient right now that I can’t imagine I would. I don’t need to make up any motivations or what if scenarios, I’m not hiding my true intentions. Hi IMMkXLVI.

 

[muppets3d]

The interesting thing is this forum allows members to advertise points for transfer for sale (as in, accepting money in exchange for transferring points) - which is expressly against DVC's rules. There is no ifs ands or buts about that. Why is that allowed?

 

[Mouseforward]

One of the reasons I think the percentage is low is that those studios are so cheap in terms of points per night.

DVC has started addressed the issue upping BWV points from 9 to 10 in September.

The real truth is some of this is sour grapes caused by a fundamental miscalculation in room styles offered in the early DVC properties.

There will never be enough AK Value rooms or BWV SV rooms. Even if commercial renters are all shut down - we will never get them every year.

1. The AK value and Aulani hotel rooms were unavoidable side effects from resort design and point swapping when they were created. Some accuse DVC of using them to mislead buyers into thinking they can get " vacations" at low point values. Looking at the actual history of both of these room types shows a more complex story.

2. BW was the second DVC resort , and I think it was inexperience that caused the mistake of making all of the 2br lock-offs @ BWV - a mistake they have not repeated.

3. Point Sinks like the bungalow/ cabins have also caused issues and this issue is IMO the fault of DVC since they keep repeating the mistake. Having aspirational rooms at 100 + points a night results in extreme pressure on studios. Every night the point sink rooms are not booked can result in multiple days of studio rentals gone.

We all have to accept that we are not guaranteed the lowest point rooms in any DVC property. Yes even a 1% increases in availability from stopping commercial renting is good , but it will not stop the issue of low point room availability. We will still see 99% of the complaints.

 

[lowlight]

We all have to accept that we are not guaranteed the lowest point rooms in any DVC property. Yes even a 1% increases in availability from stopping commercial renting is good , but it will not stop the issue of low point room availability. We will still see 99% of the complaints.

This straw man has been dismantled at least a dozen times in this thread. Nobody thinks there are going to be low point rooms lasting past the second mark at 11 months.

 

[WinterSolider]

Point Sinks like the bungalow/ cabins have also caused issues and this issue is IMO the fault of DVC since they keep repeating the mistake. Having aspirational rooms at 100 + points a night results in extreme pressure on studios. Every night the point sink rooms are not booked can result in multiple days of studio rentals gone.

The tradeoff is that those are dues-paying points that help mitigate the annual cost of ownership.

I would love for there to be some big fat waterfront premium cabins at Fort Wilderness to pull down the dues cost per point. If that had been the case, I would have bought there.

 

[Mouseforward]

This straw man has been dismantled at least a dozen times in this thread. Nobody thinks there are going to be low point rooms lasting past the second mark at 11 months.

So you agree that your not going to get the low point rooms every year ....

 

[WinterSolider]

This straw man has been dismantled at least a dozen times in this thread. Nobody thinks there are going to be low point rooms lasting past the second mark at 11 months.

The thing that would actually solve all of this, which they're not going to do because the entire membership would have a temper tantrum, is dramatically raise the price of Studios and lower the price of 1 bedrooms.

A properly-balanced points chart would have rooms that are equally difficult to book across room types and points seasons. If it's too hard to get a Studio, Studios are too cheap. If it's too hard to book in December, December is too cheap, etc.

ETA: They obviously couldn't do this across resorts because Saratoga Springs is never going to book as quickly as Beach Club, but within the home resort booking window, pricing should be restructured to mitigate disproportionate demand.

 

[muppets3d]

So you agree that your not going to get the low point rooms every year ....

Point us to a post in this thread where someone thinks that is going to happen.

 

[Mouseforward]

The thing that would actually solve all of this, which they're not going to do because the entire membership would have a temper tantrum, is dramatically raise the price of Studios and lower the price of 1 bedrooms.

A properly-balanced points chart would have rooms that are equally difficult to book across room types and points seasons. If it's too hard to get a Studio, Studios are too cheap. If it's too hard to book in December, December is too cheap, etc.

This AND - put in reCaptcha on the booking screen to prevent automated bots from booking rooms. I can not believe that they have no protection from automation in the booking screen.

 

[Sykes]

This AND - put in reCaptcha on the booking screen to prevent automated bots from booking rooms. I can not believe that they have no protection from automation in the booking screen.

reCAPTCHA is easily defeated these days so it's barely worth the effort, AND reCAPTCHA specifically is owned by Google so putting it on Disney pages essentially leaks data to a competitor (and helps them in other ways) ... although there are other solutions to bot mitigation that they could implement.

 

[lowlight]

So you agree that your not going to get the low point rooms every year ....

Seriously?

 

[TCRAIG]

This AND - put in reCaptcha on the booking screen to prevent automated bots from booking rooms. I can not believe that they have no protection from automation in the booking screen.

I really hope DVC doesn’t add reCaptcha to bookings - imagine being on the west coast, getting up at 5am and trying to book and prove you’re a human by marking all the squares with bicycles (or whatever) - remember, everything that DVC does to make booking more complex for ‘them’ is also going to make booking more complex for ‘us’.