DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss! **Check Post #1678 - Walking Language????

Holy moly I finally caught up. God forbid someone take a few days to work on their basement lol. Great discussion going on though. Anyways, I have some thoughts I'll post over a few posts tonight.

First, I have seen a lot of people mention the old 20 reservation rule (including very recently) that they added for a while in an incorrect sense. A lot of posters keep insinuating that you could do whatever you wanted up until 20 reservations (like 19 obvious commercial rentals) and there was nothing Disney could do. That is incorrect. The 20 reservation rule looks like it was completely separate from the other "not for commercial use" rules. It was not "do anything you want, including commercial activity up until 20 reservations if you want"

The 20 reservation rule then simply gave you a single case in which they would 100% for sure review your account. They NEVER state anywhere that that is the only thing that can get them to review your account or that you will not be reviewed if you stay under 20 reservations but still appear to be breaking other parts of the rules.

I think someone else posted something similar quite a ways back but I keep seeing people talk about this rule incorrectly. I think this rule basically did nothing and was just a scare tactic. They still could review your account at any point if they really wanted to, they just said they for sure would if you meet this one criteria.
 
I am attaching it but it discusses both sale and rentals.

That section of the terms assumes people are going to be renting their timeshare. It’s very hard to argue that rentals are not permitted when they’re giving you conditions and warnings that you may not make a profit renting right in the terms of service.

It definitely smacks closer to “ We’re not responsible if you don’t make a profit. “ Granted there are other provisions that do say no commercial enterprise however, It was pointed out that was related more to using it for non-vacation purposes such as opening a business running Tupperware parties out of the DVC room.
 
Since the contract doesn’t differentiate on who members can make reservations for, and treats owners, guests, renters, exchangers, and invitees the same, I don’t think they can do it.

All owners of a home resort must have the same rules for booking, and telling you that certain guests can’t be named until later doesn’t seem to mesh with that.

This falls under the DVC membership agreement and the home resort rules and regulations.
That’s almost too bad as it would pretty much take the wind out of any argument that renting is taking away their rooms if it was an owner occupant use only at 11 months booking.
 
I don’t believe Wyndham requires owners to use their rental arm…and they don’t limit how often an owner can deposit a rental.

I don’t know when Wyndham updated their commercial purpose terms but unlike DVC, they have them in writing for owners…it’s posted in an early thread here

So, if those were there prior to that updated statue, then it wouldn’t apply.

If you read them, I’d say they are pretty reasonable.
I read the link on TUG that @Brian Noble posted about the cease and desist letter but i couldn’t find anything regarding their rental policy.

Agree if they were in place before the FL stat then they wouldn’t apply.

Still I don’t think it’s reasonable that owners need to use wyndhams rental portal - but then again maybe reasonable don’t apply here?
 

That section of the terms assumes people are going to be renting their timeshare. It’s very hard to argue that rentals are not permitted when they’re giving you conditions and warnings that you may not make a profit renting right in the terms of service.

It definitely smacks closer to “ We’re not responsible if you don’t make a profit. “ Granted there are other provisions that do say no commercial enterprise however, It was pointed out that was related more to using it for non-vacation purposes such as opening a business running Tupperware parties out of the DVC room.

This is also in big bold letters and in the front of the contract!

As has been said, if renting was prohibited, there would be no need to have that there.

I even think that this clause could be used to support that DVD is acknowledging that rentals could create a profit.

it’s hard to imagine anyone walking away with an interpretation other than I can rent, but don’t count on a any level of profit because you are competing with professional renters!!!
 
There is nothing in the POS's that says profiting off of rentals is against the rules. The clause you are referring to that says one should not purchase with the expectation of making a profit is in a clause that is simply informing potential purchasers that DVC will not help them with rentals and that any member trying to do rentals will be facing rental competition by professional renters including from Disney and DVC entities, which could prevent a member from making any profit from rentals. That is actually the kind of clause that appears in many contracts relating to sale of vacation properties to assure the seller cannot later be sued by the purchaser claiming that the seller's sales rep told the buyer that doing rentals of the property would definitely be profitable. And it is the kind of clause that is never put in if rentals are prohibited.

I actually think that clause has nothing to do with rentals but rather resale value and capital gain. I.e., unlike maybe a house, don’t expect a vacation ownership interest to appreciate over time and you’re likely to lose money.

That was my interpretation when I read it. Rentals are not mentioned and didn’t even occur to me in that context.

"You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of making a financial gain."

"Purchase and use of Ownership Interests for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited."

"Reservation requests may be made only by a Member; however, reserved Accommodations may be occupied by Members or their guests. Accommodations are for personal use only and may not be assigned, bartered, rented, sold, otherwise transferred or used for any commercial purpose as determined by DVD in its discretion."

This was all copied and pasted directly out of my Riviera contract. If you think none of that has anything to do with rentals (or if Disney is trying to tell you that you can't hope to compete when they have Pop Century right down the road, LMAO), I guess I don't know what to tell you.
 
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Holy moly I finally caught up. God forbid someone take a few days to work on their basement lol. Great discussion going on though. Anyways, I have some thoughts I'll post over a few posts tonight.
This thread moves faster than a DVC member to a DVC booth when they hear they're giving out free swag.

I gave up trying to read it all lol
 
As for how DVC will use this new clarification/attestation/policy, my general feeling is that I will be happy if they go after the major obvious commercial renters who are exploiting the system, both to get and hold so many sought after reservations and to make so many rentals for an obvious large profit.

I, like some others, just hope it doesn't go too far. I have a large amount of points (to me, not commercial renter level though lol). If we need to take a year or two off after having a baby or to take a break from so many Disney trips (my wife reaaaally wants to go back to Fiji) then I would want to be able to rent my points for a year or two. Or I would like to be able to rent maybe 20-30% or maybe even more of my points one year to make it a cheaper dues year and then bank some points for the next year for a Grand Villa trip or something.

I would be fine with the idea of Disney giving a place to rent/trade in points for a decent price/credit. I have more ideas for what they can do that I'll put in a later post. I have to gather my ideas lol
 
Holy moly I finally caught up. God forbid someone take a few days to work on their basement lol. Great discussion going on though. Anyways, I have some thoughts I'll post over a few posts tonight.

First, I have seen a lot of people mention the old 20 reservation rule (including very recently) that they added for a while in an incorrect sense. A lot of posters keep insinuating that you could do whatever you wanted up until 20 reservations (like 19 obvious commercial rentals) and there was nothing Disney could do. That is incorrect. The 20 reservation rule looks like it was completely separate from the other "not for commercial use" rules. It was not "do anything you want, including commercial activity up until 20 reservations if you want"

The 20 reservation rule then simply gave you a single case in which they would 100% for sure review your account. They NEVER state anywhere that that is the only thing that can get them to review your account or that you will not be reviewed if you stay under 20 reservations but still appear to be breaking other parts of the rules.

I think someone else posted something similar quite a ways back but I keep seeing people talk about this rule incorrectly. I think this rule basically did nothing and was just a scare tactic. They still could review your account at any point if they really wanted to, they just said they for sure would if you meet this one criteria.

Many owners, though. were told by DVC that they would not flag below 20 and that is how it would be enforced.

Maybe they could have done it for fewer, but the CMs, when asked, said that as long as you were under 20, no review would happen.

The one owner here who even got the letter was told that the rule was under twenty, and never got contacted again.

And that is where it comes from.
 
"You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of making a financial gain."

"Purchase and use of Ownership Interests for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited."

"Reservation requests may be made only by a Member; however, reserved Accommodations may be occupied by Members or their guests. Accommodations are for personal use only and may not be assigned, bartered, rented, sold, otherwise transferred or used for any commercial purpose as determined by DVD in its discretion."

This was all copied and pasted directly out of my Riviera contract. If you think none of that has anything to do with rentals (or if Disney is trying to tell you that you can't compete when they have Pop Century right down the road, LMAO), I guess I don't know what to tell you.
Where are you seeing this ? I see the following in mine. ( which has no such restriction)

12. Personal Use and Enjoyment. The purchase of an Ownership Interest should be based upon its value as a vacation experience or for spending leisure time, and not considered for purposes of acquiring an appreciating investment or with an expectation that the OwnershipInterest may be rented or resold. Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by any Purchaser for resale or as an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, capital appreciation,or any other financial return or valuable benefit, including any tax benefit. Owners attempting to resell or rent their Ownership Interests would have to compete, at a substantial disadvantage, with DVD in the sale or rental of its Ownership Interests.The many restrictions upon the use of an Ownership Interest may adversely affect its marketability or rentability. Ownership Interests should also not be purchased with any expectation that any Vacation Home located at DVC Resorts can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental. Club Members should be aware that several resort hotels are in operation within and around the DVC Resorts, including hotels owned or operated by The TWDC Companies, and that DVD will also rent its Ownership Interests to the general public. Accordingly, any Club Member who attempted to rent reserved Vacation Homes for his or her own account would compete with these resort hotels and DVD for renters without any assistance fromThe TWDC Companies, and would be at a substantial competitive disadvantage.Club Members should not purchase an Ownership Interest based upon any expectation of deriving any rental, other revenue, or profit therefrom.
 
Where are you seeing this ? I see the following in mine. ( which has no such restriction)

12. Personal Use and Enjoyment. The purchase of an Ownership Interest should be based upon its value as a vacation experience or for spending leisure time, and not considered for purposes of acquiring an appreciating investment or with an expectation that the OwnershipInterest may be rented or resold. Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by any Purchaser for resale or as an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, capital appreciation,or any other financial return or valuable benefit, including any tax benefit. Owners attempting to resell or rent their Ownership Interests would have to compete, at a substantial disadvantage, with DVD in the sale or rental of its Ownership Interests.The many restrictions upon the use of an Ownership Interest may adversely affect its marketability or rentability. Ownership Interests should also not be purchased with any expectation that any Vacation Home located at DVC Resorts can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental. Club Members should be aware that several resort hotels are in operation within and around the DVC Resorts, including hotels owned or operated by The TWDC Companies, and that DVD will also rent its Ownership Interests to the general public. Accordingly, any Club Member who attempted to rent reserved Vacation Homes for his or her own account would compete with these resort hotels and DVD for renters without any assistance fromThe TWDC Companies, and would be at a substantial competitive disadvantage.Club Members should not purchase an Ownership Interest based upon any expectation of deriving any rental, other revenue, or profit therefrom.

This was all copied out of my Riviera contract from when I bought direct. Basically, the DocuSign you get back once you've signed it. I'm not sure how we apparently have two very different versions of the contract?
 
Many owners, though. were told by DVC that they would not flag below 20 and that is how it would be enforced.

Maybe they could have done it for fewer, but the CMs, when asked, said that as long as you were under 20, no review would happen.

The one owner here who even got the letter was told that the rule was under twenty, and never got contacted again.

And that is where it comes from.
Right, and it has been in the contract since the beginning that renting as a commercial enterprise is not allowed, and CMs would tell you so if you asked them, yet there are various members that have been doing it for years now. Disney just hasn't really done much of anything about it (until maybe now)

What they are allowed to do via the contracts/documents and what they have chosen to do so far are not always the same. They don;t automatically do the most harsh thing allowed just because they can. So just because they didn't do anything else for reservations under 20 doesn't mean that they couldn't have. That is the distinction. A promise to do something (A) is not a promise that they won't also do something else (B)
 
Where are you seeing this ? I see the following in mine. ( which has no such restriction)

12. Personal Use and Enjoyment. The purchase of an Ownership Interest should be based upon its value as a vacation experience or for spending leisure time, and not considered for purposes of acquiring an appreciating investment or with an expectation that the OwnershipInterest may be rented or resold. Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by any Purchaser for resale or as an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, capital appreciation,or any other financial return or valuable benefit, including any tax benefit. Owners attempting to resell or rent their Ownership Interests would have to compete, at a substantial disadvantage, with DVD in the sale or rental of its Ownership Interests.The many restrictions upon the use of an Ownership Interest may adversely affect its marketability or rentability. Ownership Interests should also not be purchased with any expectation that any Vacation Home located at DVC Resorts can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental. Club Members should be aware that several resort hotels are in operation within and around the DVC Resorts, including hotels owned or operated by The TWDC Companies, and that DVD will also rent its Ownership Interests to the general public. Accordingly, any Club Member who attempted to rent reserved Vacation Homes for his or her own account would compete with these resort hotels and DVD for renters without any assistance fromThe TWDC Companies, and would be at a substantial competitive disadvantage.Club Members should not purchase an Ownership Interest based upon any expectation of deriving any rental, other revenue, or profit therefrom.
Are yours also for RIV? - if not then that might be the reason.
 
IMO there is nothing in the rules saying DVC can’t dont that, on the other hand FL stat is saying that owners rights to rent can’t be limited etc without a vote and only those in favor will the limitations apply to.

NOW how Wyndham can get around that I don’t maybe their ownership is different than of DVC and maybe the FL stat therefore don’t apply do them. Maybe another option is that no one challenged Wyndham.

What FL statute are you talking about, and are you certain it relates to timeshares? Because there are laws on the books that prevent condo associations from preventing you from putting up a TV antenna if you want one, but try convincing Disney that relates to DVC.
 
What FL statute are you talking about, and are you certain it relates to timeshares? Because there are laws on the books that prevent condo associations from preventing you from putting up a TV antenna if you want one, but try convincing Disney that relates to DVC.
DVC is a condominium therefore the FL Stat. § 718.110(13) applies

Link: https://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/2023/11/29/implementing-condominium-restrictions/

Fla. Stat. § 718.110(13) expressly limits amendments relating to rentals as follows:

(13) An amendment prohibiting unit owners from renting their units or altering the duration of the rental term or specifying or limiting the number of times unit owners are entitled to rent their units during a specified period applies only to unit owners who consent to the amendment and unit owners who acquire title to their units after the effective date of that amendment.
 
Many owners, though. were told by DVC that they would not flag below 20 and that is how it would be enforced.

Maybe they could have done it for fewer, but the CMs, when asked, said that as long as you were under 20, no review would happen.

The one owner here who even got the letter was told that the rule was under twenty, and never got contacted again.

And that is where it comes from.

Is there a copy of this letter? Was it recent?
 
Hang on to your hats friends!!!!!! I was reading the new T & C again and I completely missed this!!!

I think we have updated rules and consequences to PREVENT WALKING!!!

And, its so simple and yet, it will have no impact on owners who need the flexibilty to make and change reservations!!!!!

Here it is (bold is mine!)

“In addition, Disney reserves the right to cancel or modify a reservation (including after the reservation has been confirmed) if the reservation includes or resulted from a mistake or error of any kind, if Disney confirms that a reservation was made for commercial purpose and not for personal use, or where it appears that a guest has engaged in fraudulent or misleading activity in making the reservation. If a reservation is cancelled by Disney, Disney shall have no responsibility beyond the refund of monies paid to Disney and/or Vacation Points used, for the reservation.

No ambiguity, no hidden meanings, no deciding intent, nothing!!! If DVC thinks you are engaging in fraudlent or misleading activity, they can modify or cancel. And, you are agreeing to this every single time you book!!!!

I can't imagine anyone can say that walking is not misleading....that is exactly what it is! Now, the rules expressly prohibt it!!!

The best part is that DVC still gets to make the final decision and if someone needs to modify or change a reservation for legitimate reasons, they can!

Kudos to them for figuring this out so easily because my biggest fear was that the changes would be deterimental to those who truly do have reasons to modify and change!!!
 
DVC is a condominium therefore the FL Stat. § 718.110(13) applies

Link: https://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/2023/11/29/implementing-condominium-restrictions/

Fla. Stat. § 718.110(13) expressly limits amendments relating to rentals as follows:

(13) An amendment prohibiting unit owners from renting their units or altering the duration of the rental term or specifying or limiting the number of times unit owners are entitled to rent their units during a specified period applies only to unit owners who consent to the amendment and unit owners who acquire title to their units after the effective date of that amendment.

See this is what I'm talking about, that same chapter also says condo associations can't prohibit you from installing an EV charger if you want one - try telling the resort manager at Jambo House you need an EV charger outside of your value studio and Florida statute says you can put one in. So I'm not convinced that this rental provision would actually stand up as applicable to DVC.
 
Right, and it has been in the contract since the beginning that renting as a commercial enterprise is not allowed, and CMs would tell you so if you asked them, yet there are various members that have been doing it for years now. Disney just hasn't really done much of anything about it (until maybe now)

What they are allowed to do via the contracts/documents and what they have chosen to do so far are not always the same. They don;t automatically do the most harsh thing allowed just because they can. So just because they didn't do anything else for reservations under 20 doesn't mean that they couldn't have. That is the distinction. A promise to do something (A) is not a promise that they won't also do something else (B)

You are corect. Just wanting to give context as to why some of us share it the way we do.....that was what was written, what we were told, and how it was enforced.
 















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