DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[Kingkonig]

Just taking someone’s contract would require a legal proceeding like foreclosure.

This is much easier for them…lock out use. Reservations canceled.

Exactly. Now, using the HOA example people have before, you *could* impose financial penalties and then place a lien on the deed, but that costs money and time.

 

[muppets3d]

A couple things.
Low cost views are what commercial renters go after, the cheaper the points the better.
You have to look at high demand dates, yes July 4 is a holiday but is it fiercely popular at WDW? Commercial renters book what renters want. They love Halloween party dates, run disney dates, Christmas party dates, and then other holidays that fall with a weekend attached to them when weather is better. But low points trump all of the above. There is a reason 1 bedroom values are more available than studios.. more points.

Early December 2024 was a bloodbath too. I don't know how much of that was due to rentals though. I guess that is just a very popular time to travel and DVC probably should rebalance that season.

 

[Sandisw]

The 5 club level 1 bedroom units often hang around for weeks, if not months. Same for the 1 bed value units. It really is just that the rental market targets the studios.

I am sure you'll still need to be on right at 8AM to get a club/value studio after the fallout, but your odds will be much greater than they are now - when you have to compete with not just regular members, but also brokers with bots that are perpetually walking their reservations until they get to a max profit time.

We know that owners are getting those rooms and not all are being rented.

So, how do you see your chances are much better when there are still 5 studios?

Let’s say 3 out of 5 go to a commercial renter vis bots but now they won’t.

The change is 3 additional AKV owners are getting them. But how many AKV owners are trying is day for those 5 rooms?

That isn’t going to change. So, if 100 owners are trying lfor the rooms then you have 5% chance of getting them. If it’s 200 people every morning, then you have a 2.5% chance.

At least let’s be honest and realistic in terms of the impact.

The flip side is that if the notion is that without the commercial renters these will be easier to book, you may have more AKV owners trying who don’t ever bother now.

Obviously owners who are clearly in it as a business to maximize profits try and grab them…

But cutting them out does not mean people who want low cost rooms will be able to get them without issue.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Personally I think DVC already knows who they will be targeting first. My guess is the last 6-12 months they've already been making a list and checking it twice. Those large contracts on the "naughty" list I think will be hearing from Disney sooner rather than later....once they make a ressie DVC thinks breaks their policy. The question after the low hanging, large operations are targeted...do they keep going. i think the answer to that is how much revenue DVC thinks they are losing versus how much money and resourses they want to exert to police the system. My feeling is they 1,000+ renters could be in the crosshairs....and most everyone else is safe. but we will see.

There are reports of people being told by people higher than MS that they do have a list and know who major offenders are. Im no lawyer but its very possible the new roll out of terms and the box is a way to make going after these specific people easier legally speaking.

I think the only ones that are safe at making a business out of going to Disney Parks are YouTubers and social media influencers. They provide free advertising, BUT they also have to stay in that realm. The YouTubers that had lived a year at WDW and have so many room tours on their channel were also caught up in that great tour guide massacre because they started a side business doing tours... went to court to get their trespassing lifted but failed.

And now they are selling their points in a way that goes against the terms. Wild stuff. They like living on the edge with Disney

I completely disagree with your premise. The thing is the new owners will be mostly booking studios that’s why the new resorts are built with more studios. People’s preference isn’t going to change. They want the cheapest room.

Yes there’s a handful of people who like to book one bedrooms. However. a significant amount of them are people who are locked out of studios.

For people who aren’t staying for a week the one bedroom is basically the redheaded stepchild of rooms DVC it doesn’t sleep anymore than a studio, and it cost more than twice as much.

That’s causing the studio issue.

The thing is new owners would be booking for themselves. Seeing hundreds and hundreds of studios up for rent.. how can it not be a problem? It's not a few here and there. Hundreds up for rent every single day and they do get rented and just replaced with a new reservation. That impacts members period. Nobody thinks if they stop commercial renting magically all the rooms will be wide open but you will have a far better chance of booking something when you try.

 

[Ruttangel]

Just taking someone’s contract would require a legal proceeding like foreclosure.

This is much easier for them…lock out use. Reservations canceled.

I can see some major renters who never go to a DVC resort just keep going until they are blocked, nothing to lose, this whole thing could take years to make a difference

 

[muppets3d]

We know that owners are getting those rooms and not all are being rented.

So, how do you see your chances are much better when there are still 5 studios?

Let’s say 3 out of 5 go to a commercial renter vis bots but now they won’t.

The change is 3 additional AKV owners are getting them. But how many AKV owners are trying is day for those 5 rooms?

That isn’t going to change. So, if 100 owners are trying lfor the rooms then you have 5% chance of getting them. If it’s 200 people every morning, then you have a 2.5% chance.

At least let’s be honest and realistic in terms of the impact.

The flip side is that if the notion is that without the commercial renters these will be easier to book, you may have more AKV owners trying who don’t ever bother now.

Obviously owners who are clearly in it as a business to maximize profits try and grab them…

But cutting them out does not mean people who want low cost rooms will be able to get them without issue.

A lot of conjecture there.

Try to book a club level studio any time. You can't. They're booked up for days in advance due to walkers. The best you can hope for is a waitlist will come through after the fact. The members you say are getting the rooms aren't getting them by booking them by and large, they're getting them from waitlists.

So if getting the renter bots out will mean that members will actually have a shot at booking them without praying for a waitlist match, then I am all for it.

I'm not saying I'll be able to book a club level studio on a whim like I can a Saratoga studio - that's obviously not realistic. I'll still need my owner's priority and some luck to get them. But at least it'll be more of a fair fight when I'm not competing with bots that have thousands of points behind them.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I took a look at the availability 1 year out and there were only 2 "unavailable" categories that slightly surprised me. 1 is the BCV studio but that May timeframe is starting to encroach on Mother's day which from casual observance has a higher demand. The other is the non-HH OKW GV. Everything else has some explanation (PVB tower not sold out and high demand to check out the new building, CCV undergoing refurb) or historically, going back to pre-online way prior to any commercial type renting (other than perhaps Davids but it was run quite differently then), isn't surprising. That was when some members would call in day by day to piece together a reservation and it wasn't unheard of for them to not get a day in the middle of their reservation in the BWV standard or Boardwalk view categories. The mantra then from some is the same today. Do not buy a resort with the intent to only book the cheapest or scarcest room. What I see in availability still applies, not that it's difficult to book a room at your home resort.

There isn't a single resort that doesn't have rooms available for their owners to book.

The only people who have ever implied that was a viable plan is a guide. There was a time they would pull out the AKV value chart to tell people buying at SSR some other resort that they could book that room for 7 points a night. Guide=timeshare sales person
That's an issue for a points based timeshare if people don't really study it. But it's also the beauty of a points based timeshare - you're easily able to book different types of accommodations.

I guess you have never needed a reservation and then saw it up for rent from various people who rent tons of rooms. Maybe then you would feel differently.

The bottom line is enough members were being impacted by this and complained and DVC doesn't take this type of major action over a few complaints. So just because you see no problem doesnt mean that there is not one.

 

[muppets3d]

Nobody thinks if they stop commercial renting magically all the rooms will be wide open but you will have a far better chance of booking something when you try.

At least you won't be competing with bots that have thousands of points at their disposal, who can afford to lock up multiple rooms with perpetual walks for months.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Don’t forget that brood of great-grandchildren guaranteed to appear in 15 years, even though their future parents are still in 5th grade.

Comment of the day

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Well if they were honest and said "this room we are sitting in books up by 8:30AM 11 months before check-in" nobody would buy, LOL.

Well, they never were sitting in a Value room. It was a sales tactic to appeal to those who were hesitating at the cost.

 

[CarolynFH]

Just the other day I saw someone post 12 reservations for rent at popular resorts and/or popular room categories. This is commercial.

I saw someone post their website advertising themselves a as Disney loving family that wants to help you get cheap Disney accommodations by renting their points to you. There is a photo of them in front of the Villas at Disneyland Hotel, just a Disney loving family who wants to rent occasionally when they cant go? No absolutely not, and THEY KNOW THIS. They have a website, professional renting contracts. This is a commercial endeavor. (also I have seen them post many times, because this is business!)

I would love to know if someday that website has quietly disappeared. It would be fun if it weren’t such a quiet disappearance, but quiet will do.

They aren’t (as far as we know) doing work to close the loopholes

“As far as we know” being the most important words here.

 

[GoingSince1990]

You actually forgot a 0 there Still 100% worth it!!! Peak Star Wars since 1980 imho.

About the change in T&C: I saw this pop on my FB feed yesterday and my heart actually stopped. As a very recent buyer who went all in with 1200 points, I used 400 this year, will use 560 next year, 1158 in 2027 (for a GV celebration trip) but after that I wasn't planning on using it more than 500 a year and actually counted on renting the difference. It was incredibly easy for me to rent them here, barely a hassle. And zero reservation I booked with members here have went wrong. It felt like a perfect system.

I read through the thread and the consensus seems to be under 1k point there should be no need to worry, but if Disney cracks down more severely on this, I fear many people will have to sell and crash the resale market.

Not much we can do about it except wait and see.

In your situation (own 1200 points and want to rent 600) I would suggest NOT taking out an ad saying "600 points available for rent!" and using them to fill reservation requests, no matter how small, based upon the responses. I also would NOT make spec reservations in your name for desirable times and advertise them for sale, as Disney can see these ads too and you would need to call or chat to change the name when the reservation sells, drawing attention to yourself. Instead, you should be able to rent out the whole 600 points with possibly two (or three at most) largish reservations through David's or DVC Rental Store. No name changes needed, as you make the reservations in the renters' names, and even though you are making reservations for someone else, who is to say that they are not friends or family? I recently made a reservation using my points as a favor for one of my son's colleagues who works with my son thousands of miles away and who I have never met, without charging a cent. So not a rental, pure personal use, and yet in the name of someone I have never met or traveled with. It seems highly unlikely that DVC would challenge you in this situation, given the difficulty of proving that money changed hands, and also that their main priority will very likely be the low-hanging fruit of the true commercial operations listing pages and pages of spec reservations for desirable villas and times. Moreover, even if you acknowledged that the reservations for rentals, it's not at all obvious that two to three rental reservations per year would count as "regular or frequent".

 

[Sandisw]

A lot of conjecture there.

Try to book a club level studio any time. You can't. They're booked up for days in advance due to walkers. The best you can hope for is a waitlist will come through after the fact. The members you say are getting the rooms aren't getting them by booking them by and large, they're getting them from waitlists.

So if getting the renter bots out will mean that members will actually have a shot at booking them without praying for a waitlist match, then I am all for it.

I'm not saying I'll be able to book a club level studio on a whim like I can a Saratoga studio - that's obviously not realistic. I'll still need my owner's priority and some luck to get them. But at least it'll be more of a fair fight when I'm not competing with bots that have thousands of points behind them.

Missing the point. It’s not conjecture because we have reports here and elsewhere that owners are getting AKV CL studios for their trips.

So, no matter what, 5 is still 5 and take bots and rentals completed out of it.

If 100 owners want them for their family vacation, and you are one of 100, your maximum chance is 5%

And, I’d bet more than 100 owners are trying for those each day.

If it makes AKV owners feel it’s fairer for those CL rooms to only be used by owners and not renters, that’s a valid opinion.

 

[VGCgroupie]

At least you won't be competing with bots that have thousands of points at their disposal, who can afford to lock up multiple rooms with perpetual walks for months.

100% I honestly have a leg up on a majority of people. I homeschool my son so I have no commitments that would take me away from trying to book exactly at 8am as most members do. Must be stressful to own a product you spent so much money on and have to leave a meeting at work to book your room or otherwise miss out. But even I cannot compete with bots.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

While I don’t think DVC can legally force someone to sell, they can indeed lock someone out from using their membership if they find them in violation of th terms and conditions of the contract.

It’s all spelled out. Locking out of course means they can’t use it and in that case, an owner would most likely sell because they’d be paying dues for nothing.

I mentioned yesterday that DVC is able to force an owner to sell if they've violated terms.

 

[Galun]

You actually forgot a 0 there Still 100% worth it!!! Peak Star Wars since 1980 imho.

I read through the thread and the consensus seems to be under 1k point there should be no need to worry, but if Disney cracks down more severely on this, I fear many people will have to sell and crash the resale market.

Wow you were right! Andor cost $650 million! And to think they would pinch pennies on individual owners…

In this thread we are just a bunch of people speculating. Nobody knows what the criteria is. It could be 100, 1000, 10000 points. Whatever.

I accumulated over 3000 points over around 15 years and I am not the least bit worried. I bought my first points when our kids were born. We added when our family expanded and we had more kids so we needed bigger rooms. We added again when we started making more money and have the disposable income to buy more, with the plan to spend months at a time a Disney after the kids go to college and we retire, and to rent out excess points until then.

We do 1-2 trips a year with the kids right now, and plan on spending months in the off season after we retire and can finally travel on non school holidays. In fact I am typing this on a plane for our yearly 2 week trip to Aulani. We spend a lot more on property than our dvc dues for our trips. If Disney crack down on someone like me, I’d sell all my contracts out of spite (at a profit, all my contracts were bought at effective cost of $30-80 a point, but probably less profit if their action triggers a lot of resale), and our future trips to Disney will drop to zero.

I am a high points owner who rent out excess points and I am just as pissed at anyone at the commercial renters who snatch up room blocks to rent out speculatively. We’ve booked the same two weeks at Aulani in a standard view for years. This year was the first time where standard view was booked out for our dates at 11 months, and I had to use more points to book garden view.

So, like I said, just IMO, but I’m not worried. Before someone say it’s a high points owner trying to influence opinion or whatever, no I don’t think a single thread on the internet will remotely move opinion. I do enjoy this discussion with other owners.

 

[davidhr]

I absolutely love reading the mental gymnastics of people who say there’s no availability at 11 months and then use Value/Club rooms as an example

 

[DonMacGregor]

The thing is new owners would be booking for themselves. Seeing hundreds and hundreds of studios up for rent.. how can it not be a problem? It's not a few here and there. Hundreds up for rent every single day and they do get rented and just replaced with a new reservation. That impacts members period. Nobody thinks if they stop commercial renting magically all the rooms will be wide open but you will have a far better chance of booking something when you try.

I'll just keep saying this:

The flood gates absolutely won't open with rooms available weeks out across every resort. The points are still out there, still owned by someone, and still being used to make reservations.

However, instead of one "mega renter" owning dozens of contracts all for commercial use, targeting and reserving the same lucrative room types (studios, for example) during high demand weeks, and making numerous reservations, you'll see a more natural distribution as now dozens of discrete owners, with their own travel plans, preferred or needed room types, and travel calendars, will be using those points in a more organic fashion and not necessarily targeting peak travel periods.

In other words, it's a statistical improbability that the multiple owners who will replace the mega renters will all seek out and rent the exact same rooms, at the exact same times, in the exact same numbers, for the same duration, as the mega renters. No amount of pretzel logic or rationalization will improve that improbability.

Sure, some folks will still use their points during peak periods, and that's to be expected. And why shouldn't they? They own the points and that is their right. However, the points are distributed across multiple members who won't all want to go on vacation all during the same travel periods.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I would love to know if someday that website has quietly disappeared. It would be fun if it weren’t such a quiet disappearance, but quiet will do.

I will update if I notice it go away

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I am not a lawyer. Given no clear definition of commercial and personal use for DVC points, I can see a lawsuit coming even from the bad apple DVC owners renting out their points like a business.

I am a lawyer, and the threat of a lawsuit and reality of one are very different. I seriously doubt even the biggest bad operators in this space are making all that much money, relatively speaking. Unlikely they have the resources to get into a protracted legal fight with one of the world's biggest corporations, especially when, as here, that corporation is known for going all the way when it is sued.

And again, this isn't me speculating, this is exactly how it went down with other (larger) timeshare operators who went down this path. The commercial renters were full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.