DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[Galun]

+1 on the Andor shout out.

Season 2 was fantastic, it’s like 4 Star Wars movie. Then immediately after I rewatched rouge 1 and a new hope.

I doubt Disney will ever do that again. That was a decision made by the prior CEO to lose unlimited amount of money to drive streaming subscriptions.

 

[MartyParty]

I've ran out of popcorn! So many of my favorite posters in one thread going back and forth. Need to stick another bag in the microwave. Be right back!

 

[muppets3d]

I've ran out of popcorn! So many of my favorite posters in one thread going back and forth. Need to stick another bag in the microwave. Be right back!

View attachment 971071

Sadly, microwave has to do for me right now as well. The best popcorn on property is unavailable, as Cool Ship in Tomorrowland is closed for refurbishment.

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

A lawyer would have a field day with this. Question is what the representations were to induce a party to enter into the contract, and what would a reasonable person think when reading the documents together. Ambiguity is usually interpreted against the maker.
I don’t personally rent points so it’s immaterial to me, but if my situation changed in future I may want to. It’s always been a pro of the product as far as I’m concerned,
Many people are going to be very disappointed and don’t seem to fully understand how DVC works, if they think there’s suddenly going to be availability as a result of this.
The question is what is ‘personal’ and what is ‘commercial’. Renting for cash clearly isn’t deemed non personal. It’s vague, it’s opaque.
I also think virtually everyone is in agreement that it’s no bad thing clamping down on commercial renters of scale, particularly those linked to resale brokers who strip contracts and rent confirmed reservations.
But if Fred from Chicago decides he doesn’t want to go for the next 5 years, but intends to pick it up again in future, or wants to see the actual world so has 3 years of good trips planned to places outside the USA, or his wife is ill, or his job takes him away abroad, or there’s another pandemic, it makes not one iota of difference to me, you or any other member that he rents his points. The only body this benefits is Disney, who has less competition for cash rooms, more breakage and more profit.

I think a reasonable person would read this POS and not glance over the multiple parts where DVC makes it clear DVC is for personal use and prohibits use for commercial. I think your statement that a lawyer would have a field day is overly optimistic...especially for the large enterprises I think DVC has in their sights.

Besides that I think we agree on all the other points. I know Fred....he lives 2 blocks from me. If he needs to rent out his points for whatever reason I am actually all for it. 50 years is a long time and people have life stuff that comes up. It's one of the benefits of the program. But Fred isn't trying to make money.....he's trying not to lose money. He bought his points to use them....not as a means to making money year in and year out. I really think DVC understands that and is not trying to go after Fred...and all the other Fred's out there.

I have never rented my points and never will. But I think it's a great feature and hope it continues to be an option for people who are playing by the rules

 

[Brian Noble]

Bots have been getting around security features like Captcha for almost a decade.

...sometimes by paying people! However, the people they are paying live in much less expensive places, and the asymmetry works in the bots favor.

As a Disney shareholder who saw them blew $65 million on straight to TV series Andor (which I really enjoyed), I hope they don’t have to stoop down to squeezing out a few hundred bucks from a room that they could have rented out instead of an individual DVC owner, who paid tens of thousands up front to begin with. That’s would mean the company is in deep financial trouble.

That's not the only explanation. For example, it could just be that they are petty when it comes to others profiting off of their parks and resorts---and history has shown that yes, yes they are.

That was a decision made by the prior CEO to lose unlimited amount of money to drive streaming subscriptions.

That would be a valid criticism, except that streaming has turned profitable. 25Q2 reports that DTC generated north of $300M.

I'm trying to decide if the original plan for five seasons rather than compressing the last four years of BBY into one would have been awseome or horrible.

 

[matt_in_nh]

The developers who adopted these policies often saw resale values plummet to near zero. However, they still have no problem selling developer contracts. I get that people think Disney cares about the resale market, but Disney almost certainly does not, and exercises ROFR when they want additional inventory, not to prop up the resale market. The positive for us personal users (including mixed direct/resale purchasers like myself) is that there should be a lot more plentiful and cheap resale contracts to pick up once all the commercial renters start heading for the hills.

Well as someone who bought with the thought to maybe sell if I get tired of DVC, I don't like the thought of it going to 0....but I get that is a possibility when buying a timeshare. DVC has always been different. The driver here will be how much high end commercial renting is actually going on as a percentage of the overall product and how much Disney actually cracks down. If they drive it down and can continue to sell then they stand to make a lot more money by exercising ROFR. I do like the thought of getting a Crescent lake property near 0....I just dont think that will happen as a result of this.....as we appraoch 2042 it will happen.

 

[Cyberc1978]

You're suggesting it's cheaper to rent a DVC room than it is to stay at, for example, All-Star Sports? I very seriously doubt that.

No im not saying its cheaper - if I take my own family as an example - if they can’t stay deluxe then they prefer offsite to get the same or similar amenities.

For those that just need a room a value will be enough. They most likely won’t rent either.

 

[muppets3d]

No im not saying its cheaper - if I take my own family as an example - if they can’t stay deluxe then they prefer offsite to get the same or similar amenities.

For those that just need a room a value will be enough. They most likely won’t rent either.

You're making a totally different argument now. Or probably more likely I misunderstood your point originally.

 

[Ruttangel]

While I don’t think DVC can legally force someone to sell, they can indeed lock someone out from using their membership if they find them in violation of th terms and conditions of the contract.

It’s all spelled out. Locking out of course means they can’t use it and in that case, an owner would most likely sell because they’d be paying dues for nothing.

That’s interesting, I assumed that if you break the rules they would take your contract off you

If it’s just locking you out, and in effect, forcing you to sell then I can see some people just ignoring this until that time comes

 

[Cfabar1]

At one point wasn’t the initial buy in as low as 25 points for direct benefits?

Even now we have new buyers going in at 100 points minimums I believe.

DVC added a lot of VGF studio availability, yet I continue to be able to book 1 and 2 BR rooms pretty easily at 11 months most of the year… Now Deluxe Studios on the other hand are trickier…

If increasing 11 month availability is the ultimate goal DVC will be doing some or all of the following of the following:
- Limiting number of modifications (say no more than 1 modification each month after initial booking) within the 7-11 month window.
- Going back to my understanding of the old rule of 11 months - which was your checkout date instead of check-in date
- Rebalancing the points charts to make summer lower, December/January higher, March lower, and being comfortable with some anomalies where cash rates and points have massive disparities potentially.
- Determining if they can adjust within categories and lowering some of the vanity rooms like the Bungalows and Cascade cabins (and many of the GVs)
- increasing the cost of studios - especially the desirable studios like AKV CL, Value, BW standard, etc.
- adjusting the 1 BR premium down slightly so it is closer to 1.5x instead of 2x points to make these rooms more desirable


None of those things bring additional revenue to the Disney Corporation, but if the desire is truly 11 month availability these potentially could help solve that issue. Some may or may not be permissible with the POS, or would need to be done gradually, or would maybe create more harm than good. The point is, these are things that could enhance 11 month availability broadly.

I support the rental crackdown. It has gotten out of hand. but I think Disney is eyeing the breakage revenue far more than the desire to help Aunt Maisy in Omaha book her de-Luxe Villa a bit easier…

Another point why I don’t think it is about enhancing the experience but instead about boosting Disney’s revenue:
- They aren’t (as far as we know) doing work to close the loopholes that are allowing these people to amass huge numbers of points through LLCs, Shell Corporations, etc. They’re still gladly letting you buy as many points as you’d like.

 

[VGCgroupie]

(BoardWalk is a confusing example because all of the Two Bedrooms are lockoffs, and many will be rented as 2B villas. There aren't REALLY 246 people with Studio reservations on every single night. Nevertheless...)

On the basis of that 246 number, 46% of the villas at BoardWalk are Studios. More than half of the guests staying at the BoardWalk on any given night have a reservation for something other than a Studio. (And that's one of the larger studio %, short of PVB and VGF which are heavily studio. Five resorts are in the range of 30-35% studio including lockoffs.)

One DVC rental site currently has 151 confirmed reservations for Boardwalk Villas. 150 of them are for studios...99.3%. THAT is where everyday members are being harmed.

Personally, I don't have a problem with rentals. If someone posts "hey, I've got 500 points available to rent at $22 each, hit me up"...good for them. We all have reasons for not using points at some stage.

What damages the program is when people cherry pick room types and dates that will maximize their own personal profits. And it's not just a one-off thing...it's a very coordinated effort. I have no idea how many points this website personally controls. There are entities who control FAR more points than the limit stated in the DVC ownership docs. If the vendor isn't managing these points / reservations personally, they're certainly advising people to engage in this behavior. And it's not just 150 reservations. If this site has 150 BW Studio listings now, they certainly sold dozens...probably hundreds of others over any 11 month span. And there are independent people doing the same things to sell on eBay, Facebook, TUG, etc.

Stopping this behavior won't change the number of rooms available. But it would lead to an increase in the satisfaction level of members seeking those same accommodations.

Some would argue that if the renter went out of business and sold their points, the new owners would do the same thing. Unless those new owners are booking 99% studios, that's not true.

The issue is a disproportionately large number of (ostensibly) commercial rental points going toward studios. Points that are used for reservations which sit unclaimed for weeks and months until rented. There's still a budding market for DVC point rentals. Offering points for any reservation opens up countless rental partners for other resorts, dates and room types. The issue is that the owner isn't satisfied with $22 per point, they want $28 per point by targeting certain resorts and room types.

Some will shrug their shoulders and say the renters have every right to do whatever they wish. And that's fine. Probably not going to change anyone's mind. But let's not kid ourselves...getting rid of this ability to claim and hold uncommitted rooms for months at a time would absolutely increase booking success for everyday owners just looking to vacation with their families.

Yes, yes, yes while we have disagreed and butted heads on other things, today you and I can fully agree on something.

People will say points are points they will be used anyway. Not a valid argument.

 

[FrancisK7]

As a Disney shareholder who saw them blew $65 million on straight to TV series Andor (which I really enjoyed)

You actually forgot a 0 there Still 100% worth it!!! Peak Star Wars since 1980 imho.

About the change in T&C: I saw this pop on my FB feed yesterday and my heart actually stopped. As a very recent buyer who went all in with 1200 points, I used 400 this year, will use 560 next year, 1158 in 2027 (for a GV celebration trip) but after that I wasn't planning on using it more than 500 a year and actually counted on renting the difference. It was incredibly easy for me to rent them here, barely a hassle. And zero reservation I booked with members here have went wrong. It felt like a perfect system.

I read through the thread and the consensus seems to be under 1k point there should be no need to worry, but if Disney cracks down more severely on this, I fear many people will have to sell and crash the resale market.

Not much we can do about it except wait and see.

 

[Sandisw]

At one point wasn’t the initial buy in as low as 25 points for direct benefits?

Even now we have new buyers going in at 100 points minimums I believe.

DVC added a lot of VGF studio availability, yet I continue to be able to book 1 and 2 BR rooms pretty easily at 11 months most of the year… Now Deluxe Studios on the other hand are trickier…

If increasing 11 month availability is the ultimate goal DVC will be doing some or all of the following of the following:
- Limiting number of modifications (say no more than 1 modification each month after initial booking) within the 7-11 month window.
- Going back to my understanding of the old rule of 11 months - which was your checkout date instead of check-in date
- Rebalancing the points charts to make summer lower, December/January higher, March lower, and being comfortable with some anomalies where cash rates and points have massive disparities potentially.
- Determining if they can adjust within categories and lowering some of the vanity rooms like the Bungalows and Cascade cabins (and many of the GVs)
- increasing the cost of studios - especially the desirable studios like AKV CL, Value, BW standard, etc.
- adjusting the 1 BR premium down slightly so it is closer to 1.5x instead of 2x points to make these rooms more desirable


None of those things bring additional revenue to the Disney Corporation, but if the desire is truly 11 month availability these potentially could help solve that issue. Some may or may not be permissible with the POS, or would need to be done gradually, or would maybe create more harm than good. The point is, these are things that could enhance 11 month availability broadly.

I support the rental crackdown. It has gotten out of hand. but I think Disney is eyeing the breakage revenue far more than the desire to help Aunt Maisy in Omaha book her de-Luxe Villa a bit easier…

Another point why I don’t think it is about enhancing the experience but instead about boosting Disney’s revenue:
- They aren’t (as far as we know) doing work to close the loopholes that are allowing these people to amass huge numbers of points through LLCs, Shell Corporations, etc. They’re still gladly letting you buy as many points as you’d like.

The 25 point for direct benefits was only for those who already owned DVC and were adding on.

I would be very surprised to see DVC limit modifications because one of the big benefits of the program is the flexibility.

I could see them do the check out vs check in to eliminate walking but it could have the same issue if had before…owners feeling they need to book day by day and ending up not getting their full stay.

Point charts adjustments can help, but let’s put some of these really hard to get rooms in perspective. No matter what, only 5 CL studios can be booked every day.

Even if DvC said that room can only be occupied by an owners, it’s still 5 AkV owners out of how many?

Does anyone really believe that those rooms will not book up in seconds?

They have a duty to make decisions for the membership as a whole but they also need to make sure that don’t make rules that the majority of the owners are being negatively impacted when common sense rules can be done to weed out the bad apples.

 

[muppets3d]

You actually forgot a 0 there Still 100% worth it!!! Peak Star Wars since 1980 imho.

About the change in T&C: I saw this pop on my FB feed yesterday and my heart actually stopped. As a very recent buyer who went all in with 1200 points, I used 400 this year, will use 560 next year, 1158 in 2027 (for a GV celebration trip) but after that I wasn't planning on using it more than 500 a year and actually counted on renting the difference. It was incredibly easy for me to rent them here, barely a hassle. And zero reservation I booked with members here have went wrong. It felt like a perfect system.

I read through the thread and the consensus seems to be under 1k point there should be no need to worry, but if Disney cracks down more severely on this, I fear many people will have to sell and crash the resale market.

Not much we can do about it except wait and see.

It's important to realize that what people say here has nothing to do with what Disney thinks is or is not permissible renting activity.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Every type. 9 of them are not studio or 2 bedroom, and those that are 2 bedroom are not all lock-off, so the person say if they are studios or a lockoff (so including a studio) it doesn't count is just an awkward comment.

This is another piece of why these conversations go in circles. I don't think 76% availability on the first day to book is good. I think it's even worse when I can't book it but I can easily rent it.

Only 8 of those room have a studio/2 bedroom overlap in unavailability. So we can pretend that number is only 19 unavailable, but it also means the number of room types is fewer. There's a lot of unavailable rooms knowing you can rent them - which means no member is getting to book and stay there.

Yes, but when 29 of the cookies are stolen by bots who go sell them right in front of you so only 15 of them go to guests, it becomes even more frustrating for members. These things add up over time when members can almost never get into the room they want while people are casually strolling up 3-5 months later and renting that same room.

I have seen this happen the day Poly was available to all members for booking the new tower, a lot of members wanting to book for themselves and couldn't due to no availability but then they logged on FB and saw so many rentals for Poly many of which were days they would have booked. I think many people probably sent emails that day.

 

[GoingSince1990]

That’s interesting, I assumed that if you break the rules they would take your contract off you

If it’s just locking you out, and in effect, forcing you to sell then I can see some people just ignoring this until that time comes

When you own an actual deeded real estate interest (as all DVC properties prior to I believe CFW are) you have all kinds of legal protections which would prevent Disney from simply "taking your contract off you". They can no more do this than an HOA can confiscate your entire condo due to a claimed violation of a rule. Of course they can still make things very tricky for a true commercial abuser by restricting the ability to make reservations and/or canceling reservations believed to have been commercial in nature.

 

[muppets3d]

The 25 point for direct benefits was only for those who already owned DVC and were adding on.

I would be very surprised to see DVC limit modifications because one of the big benefits of the program is the flexibility.

I could see them do the check out vs check in to eliminate walking but it could have the same issue if had before…owners feeling they need to book day by day and ending up not getting their full stay.

Point charts adjustments can help, but let’s put some of these really hard to get rooms in perspective. No matter what, only 5 CL studios can be booked every day.

Even if DvC said that room can only be occupied by an owners, it’s still 5 AkV owners out of how many?

Does anyone really believe that those rooms will not book up in seconds?

They have a duty to make decisions for the membership as a whole but they also need to make sure that don’t make rules that the majority of the owners are being negatively impacted when common sense rules can be done to weed out the bad apples.

The 5 club level 1 bedroom units often hang around for weeks, if not months. Same for the 1 bed value units. It really is just that the rental market targets the studios.

I am sure you'll still need to be on right at 8AM to get a club/value studio after the fallout, but your odds will be much greater than they are now - when you have to compete with not just regular members, but also brokers with bots that are perpetually walking their reservations until they get to a max profit time.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I was on today at 8:12 am. Every WDW resort had availability to book rooms. Only one resort was booked for studios.

Now, some of the lower cost views were gone.

A couple things.
Low cost views are what commercial renters go after, the cheaper the points the better.
You have to look at high demand dates, yes July 4 is a holiday but is it fiercely popular at WDW? Commercial renters book what renters want. They love Halloween party dates, run disney dates, Christmas party dates, and then other holidays that fall with a weekend attached to them when weather is better. But low points trump all of the above. There is a reason 1 bedroom values are more available than studios.. more points.

 

[Sandisw]

That’s interesting, I assumed that if you break the rules they would take your contract off you

If it’s just locking you out, and in effect, forcing you to sell then I can see some people just ignoring this until that time comes

Just taking someone’s contract would require a legal proceeding like foreclosure.

This is much easier for them…lock out use. Reservations canceled.

 

[Brian Noble]

I read through the thread and the consensus seems to be under 1k point there should be no need to worry, but if Disney cracks down more severely on this, I fear many people will have to sell and crash the resale market.

I wonder how much of this consensus is really hopium in disguise.

I don't think you have to run for the exits right now, but I would have an exit plan in place for what you think you'd need to shed to get down to "more or less what I will use for myself and people I personally know."