DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[PolyRob]

Another thought, this is also very similar to the new transfer rule. I know there are some members here with multiple UYs/memberships, but how many DVC members actually fall into this category? If you're only buying direct Disney will never offer you another UY unless you explicitly ask for it and have a reason for doing so. Guides will automatically match and deed the same way and I would wager a majority of owners fall into this category and will never even seek out a transfer.

 

[atthebeachclub]

Except the language in the POS for the new resorts specifically lists “creating, maintaining, or frequent use of a rental or resale website” as additional criteria for identifying commercial use.

I hope this doesn’t mean they are coming for us dvcforless.com addicts! (I kid)

 

[Sandisw]

They obviously have an issue with commercial renting and they are choosing to not stop it. You have to wonder why they dont want to completely stop it, yet put intentionally vague language scaring people away from it or leaving it up to interpretation to discourage it.

Yes, they want to prevent people from using memberships for commerical purposes and the upated language gives us as owners what they are thinking.

As I said, we get to rent reservations on our memberships as long as that level of renting has not gone beyond what DVC decides is acceptable under personal use.

They are not going to define it strictly because every owner has a different situation and they want to allow owners to rent if something comes up and they can't use their membership.

Look at what happened last time...they had the rules definied very specifically....more than 20 reservations in a 12 month period....if you stayed under that, you'd be okay....and what did owners do, especially those who wanted to turn DVC into a business....they set up LLC's and bought under different names, etc. to keep each membership under that threshold.

This time, IMO, they were smart....they gave us very easy to understand language. It absolutely leaves interpretation up to the owner and that is okay since each owner is responsible for making sure they are using their membership correctly.

 

[Memorymakerfor4]

My house is thrilled with today's news. We also wouldn't mind seeing the lead guest change that was mentioned above happen and see confirmed reservations disappear completely, but we'll take this. I've never had a problem with renting, but felt like those using bots or tons and tons of points as a business took away the level playing field.

 

[Goofy2015]

My parents have a ton of points under many of many of contracts (Many different home resorts). They have never rented points out. However, we go on massive family trips were we book upwards of 8-10 rooms, the most may have been 20 rooms for one trip. Also, we have been on trips with a ton of friends (each getting their own room).

All of these rooms are booked under my parent's points as gifts, but obviously not under my parent's name. How can the Walt Disney Company tell that we are using these points for personal use instead of commercial use?

 

[Sandisw]

Whew what a thread.

I think this comes down to the question of does a member frequently rent out points for profit…. which to me means more often than not they are receiving more revenue than the cost of their dues.

“We are reviewing owners who seem to own large numbers of points just to make a profit… DVC is actively figuring out ways to go after that, and stop that to the best of our ability.”

So, if someone has 2k points and has dues of $18k then in theory they could rent 1k or less points out at $18 per point and it not be commercial because they are not making a profit.

You can scale that up or down based on # of points.

I think that statement you quoted is important! It really hits home that they don't want people buying DVC to turn it into a profit making business....

 

[Sandisw]

My parents have a ton of points under many of many of contracts (Many different home resorts). They have never rented points out. However, we go on massive family trips were we book upwards of 8-10 rooms, the most may have been 20 rooms for one trip. Also, we have been on trips with a ton of friends (each getting their own room).

All of these rooms are booked under my parent's points as gifts, but obviously not under my parent's name. How can the Walt Disney Company tell that we are using these points for personal use instead of commercial use?

They won't.....and if you read the new terms, it states that you and family are enjoying your membership. So, if your parents are also there, it automatically is not going to be seen as an issue.

If they are not, then the worst that could happen is the account gets flagged, and they have the discussion. This is a prime example of why DVC is going to take a common sense approach to this....and they can tell when a membership looks like it is being used outside of personal use....and remember, personal use is owners, family, friends, and an acceptable number of rental reservations.

 

[Girlstar30]

Yes, they want to prevent people from using memberships for commerical purposes and the upated language gives us as owners what they are thinking.

As I said, we get to rent reservations on our memberships as long as that level of renting has not gone beyond what DVC decides is acceptable under personal use.

They are not going to define it strictly because every owner has a different situation and they want to allow owners to rent if something comes up and they can't use their membership.

Look at what happened last time...they had the rules definied very specifically....more than 20 reservations in a 12 month period....if you stayed under that, you'd be okay....and what did owners do, especially those who wanted to turn DVC into a business....they set up LLC's and bought under different names, etc. to keep each membership under that threshold.

This time, IMO, they were smart....they gave us very easy to understand language. It absolutely leaves interpretation up to the owner and that is okay since each owner is responsible for making sure they are using their membership correctly.

The problem is the language is not so easy to understand because it is left up to interpretation. What i think is using my membership correctly, Disney might not is what commerical renters will say. Even their examples of personal use really make it seem like renting to a stranger online is not considered personal use by using words such as personal use is making reservations for yourself or for others such as friends and family.

That's going to create issues if they try to enforce something they didnt clearly spell out. If people are left to their own devices, they are going to continue to abuse the system and say that they interpreted it to be okay. Disney needs to take a clear, enforceable stance if they really want it to stop. This is my opinion and I understand that others see it different but to me this language and what is permissible is even more confusing than before.

 

[Goofy2015]

I’m not sure who that is directed at, but I am pretty sure no one has made that suggestion, and none of the more senior members of the forum would suggest that (we’ve been around this block a few times at this point). The language of the new rules even states explicitly that personal use extends to family and friends, so the by the very letter of the law, an owner doesn’t need to be in the reservation.

How can they tell if it is a family or friend of the owner? We have a ton of family DVC points, but they are under one owner. Yes, most of us have the same last name, but some do not. Also, friends will come on trips and get separate hotel rooms under the DVC membership. How can Disney tell if this is for personal use or a rental (with the DVC Owner not on the reservation)?

 

[Goofy2015]

They won't.....and if you read the new terms, it states that you and family are enjoying your membership. So, if your parents are also there, it automatically is not going to be seen as an issue.

If they are not, then the worst that could happen is the account gets flagged, and they have the discussion. This is a prime example of why DVC is going to take a common sense approach to this....and they can tell when a membership looks like it is being used outside of personal use....and remember, personal use is owners, family, friends, and an acceptable number of rental reservations.

There are many times that we go on our own without my parents. How will they know this is for personal use? Or are they going to consider it rental? I mean, is it considered beyond the acceptable amount of rental reservations if we go on a trip on my parent’s points with some friends and booking a room for the friends?

 

[PolyRob]

How can they tell if it is a family or friend of the owner? We have a ton of family DVC points, but they are under one owner. Yes, most of us have the same last name, but some do not. Also, friends will come on trips and get separate hotel rooms under the DVC membership. How can Disney tell if this is for personal use or a rental (with the DVC Owner not on the reservation)?

I think like @Sandisw mentioned if the owners are on a reservation and all of the reservations fall within the same timeframe and are in similar resorts or request "traveling together" and some people have matching last names that would be really easy to defend IF it ever came to manual review.

If 20 rooms under a year was the previous threshold everything you mentioned wouldn't raise a red flag. There are LLCs and professional renting companies that probably have 20+ rooms a month.

I would bet Disney already has a list of who it is watching. It will wait for them to check that new box X times before the cease and desist letters come out. Then it will take action if they don't stop.

 

[Sandisw]

The problem is the language is not so easy to understand because it is left up to interpretation. What i think is using my membership correctly, Disney might not is what commerical renters will say. Even their examples of personal use really make it seem like renting to a stranger online is not considered personal use by using words such as personal use is making reservations for yourself or for others such as friends and family.

That's going to create issues if they try to enforce something they didnt clearly spell out. If people are left to their own devices, they are going to continue to abuse the system and say that they interpreted it to be okay. Disney needs to take a clear, enforceable stance if they really want it to stop. This is my opinion and I understand that others see it difference but to me this language and what is permissible is even more confusing than before.

Actually they don’t because the contract we have gives them the right to define it. That part of this is not new. If you own pre RIV, they are expected to keep the definiton reasonable.

And they have given us guidelines. Personal use is okay and w know renting is allowed.

Personal use is not frequent and regular reservations for rent or sale.

As an owner, it is up to you to decide how to interpret and use your membership within the rules

A membership that has 200 points is completely different than one with 1000 points.

How I use my membership and interpret what should be okay isn’t really relevant to anyone but DVC.

It does mean each owner has to determine their risk tolerance if they are going to rent.

All of us have different opinions of what should and should not count…which is why DVC didint define commercial.

They get to review each membership using their own metrics and then make decisions from there.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

In cases like @Goofy2015, I would assume you would be able to point out that many people share a last name, you are traveling together and visiting the parks at least some of the time and riding rides together or dining together and hanging out in each others room?

If you use MDE on your phones at all, Disney can tell if you’re on the trip as part of a group, even if you never enter a park.

 

[Goofy2015]

In cases like @Goofy2015, I would assume you would be able to point out that many people share a last name, you are traveling together and visiting the parks at least some of the time and riding rides together or dining together and hanging out in each others room?

If you use MDE on your phones at all, Disney can tell if you’re on the trip as part of a group, even if you never enter a park.

Now the question is if are on a trip separate from the owner, but the owner is family even closer parents? On top of that, you book another room for friends. So the owner is not there, but the son of the owner is there and traveling with friends.

Other craziness. My parents also have multiple memberships and multiple contracts under each membership. Is this supposed personal use limit for one owner, or one membership or one contract?

 

[Cyberc1978]

There are many times that we go on our own without my parents. How will they know this is for personal use? Or are they going to consider it rental? I mean, is it considered beyond the acceptable amount of rental reservations if we go on a trip on my parent’s points with some friends and booking a room for the friends?

My understanding is that it will be in DVC sole discretion to decide if a member is in breach or not.

If your parents are going too there should be no problem. If they aren’t then your parents might get a curtesy call from DVC if they believe there are too many of those reservations.

But if DVC only targets large points owners with 2,3,4 or even 5.000 points then your parents might be in the clear assuming they don’t own that many points.

 

[PolyRob]

Now the question is if are on a trip separate from the owner, but the owner is family even closer parents? On top of that, you book another room for friends. So the owner is not there, but the son of the owner is there and traveling with friends.

Other craziness. My parents also have multiple memberships and multiple contracts under each membership. Is this supposed personal use limit for one owner, or one membership or one contract?

A child with friends would absolutely be personal use.

Not sure if your parents are open to this, but they could list you and any other adult children as "associate members." Associate members do not get a membership card and do not have any rights to the deeded property. They are just listed by the deeded owners as being eligible to book reservations and bank/borrow points. Deeded owners can also enable dues payment through MS.

I would have to imagine DVC would recognize deeded owners and associate members using points as "personal use."

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Now the question is if are on a trip separate from the owner, but the owner is family even closer parents? On top of that, you book another room for friends. So the owner is not there, but the son of the owner is there and traveling with friends.

Other craziness. My parents also have multiple memberships and multiple contracts under each membership. Is this supposed personal use limit for one owner, or one membership or one contract?

This strikes me as a case that could probably get flagged but would easily be resolved with “that’s my son/daughter, you’ll see we travel with them several times through the years, we aren’t on that trip but we booked it for them and their friends, you’ll see the dates are all overlapping and they were all at [park/resort/restaurant] together on many days… check their photo pass history and you’ll see them together on Tron.”

I think what you’re describing is generally the kind of use Disney wants. They are sitting on an insane vault of data and could easily determine if the story above checks out.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Other craziness. My parents also have multiple memberships and multiple contracts under each membership. Is this supposed personal use limit for one owner, or one membership or one contract?

Good question.

Under the old definition it was 20 reservations per rolling 12 months per membership.

If DVC now sees all memberships as a whole or still as separate is not clear.

 

[Goofy2015]

A child with friends would absolutely be personal use.

Not sure if your parents are open to this, but they could list you and any other adult children as "associate members." Associate members do not get a membership card and do not have any rights to the deeded property. They are just listed by the deeded owners as being eligible to book reservations and bank/borrow points. Deeded owners can also enable dues payment through MS.

I would have to imagine DVC would recognize deeded owners and associate members using points as "personal use."

I am an associate member under one of their memberships, but not all. Vacations get booked under all of the memberships.

 

[Cyberc1978]

It is an extremely large amount of points. My parents will stay 6 weeks in a row, sometimes. (without trying to say the amount of points they have.)

If you are adding the word grand villa I’m gonna ask them to adopt me