DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[Sandisw]

How could somebody rent any points when they have to say the reservation is for personal use to actually book the room? Does this not de facto mean the end of rentals unless you're willing to lie to DVC to book the room?

No, because the personal use definition includes rentals.

So, when you check personal use, you are agreeing that you’re not renting or selling reservations frequently or regularly. As long as your rentals fall under what could be seen as frequent or regular, you are good

That is why the word occasional is also used. Now, DVC gets to define that and what you may think falls under that and what DVC does, or I do could be different.

That’s why it’s going to be up to each owner to decide what they think would keep them in line with the contract.

 

[Sandisw]

I wish they were more specific. If my memory is correct, 10+ years ago lots of people were buying double what they needed because they were going to rent out half their points to cover their own vacations. That sounds like personal use, I guess, but half of their points were bought just to rent.

I was surprised that @Sandisw had to say her change was for personal use on the phone. I do recollect making some VDH reservations by phone on the first day we were allowed to book and they asked if I was the lead on all the reservations, nothing about "personal use" and that's the only time I booked over the phone.

My change was through chat. And yes, they used the same wording as the online tool.

Since personal use includes rentals, I don’t see it as an issue because you are agreeing to the terms and conditions linked that define it.

 

[CastAStone]

This makes me so happy.

I know it reduces the value of my contract in the short to medium term but I firmly believe that it’s what’s best for the program and its non-commercial members.

 

[cruisehopeful]

How could somebody rent any points when they have to say the reservation is for personal use to actually book the room? Does this not de facto mean the end of rentals unless you're willing to lie to DVC to book the room?

I'm of the opinion that someone renting their points so that they can afford to pay for their own vacation at Disney is in fact renting for personal use. Renting to cover your house, car, food, clothes, student loans, etc seems more like renting for a living/profit.

Anyone who has lived long enough had known plenty of people who have had long battles with illnesses, long hospital stays after freak accidents, unexpected deaths in the family and no life insurance, lose of jobs, etc. I'm sure Disney can understand a member suddenly renting their points for a year or 5. That member won't be buying up a bunch of resale contracts during that time. Meanwhile, there are people and crap corporations that are buying up lots of resale contracts and renting everything. I hope they all appreciate the time they had on their ride and prepare for a career change.

 

[Sandisw]

Hmmm. We have been owners since 2002. I don't want to rent out our points, but I am vaguely aware that it is permitted in the POS. So, I have questions. Frankly, the wording gives me heartburn. (I don't want to attest to anything that is not true.)

Here are some examples:

What if I suddenly decided to rent our points? It would seem like I should not check that box when making a reservation. (What would happen if I didn't check the box?)

I have gifted points to my sister, Mom, nieces and nephews at various times. (Sometimes I have not been at WDW or DL at the same time). It would seem like it would not be appropriate to check the box for "personal use"--unless I was in the room, too.

Sometimes we get a room for us and a room for our son's family. Again--we'd only be in the one room. Technically, the second room would not be for "personal use".

All you mention can fall under personal use. Again, personal is not defined as “just the owner”.

It says that personal use can be using it with family, letting family and friends use it occasionally. But personal use is not frequent or regular renting/selling reservations.

If you are making a reservation that is a rental and you aren’t renting regularly, then that rental is allowed under personal use.

 

[ckb_nc]

This will be interesting to watch. I have frankly not being paying much attention to the DVC market actively.
We have our points, the wife and I have agreed we like the amount we have and want to keep the points. My point for renting has been points that were going to expire. I have used a popular rental store exclusively with very good results. Ironically pre-COVID were in point "deficit" as we would pull forward from our December use year. I tend to agree that my example is probably not the use case Disney is after.

I had this thought - by me renting out points, I am actually feeding Disney. Here is how this works - the points expire and nothing happens. Disney may well be able to rent my SSR "room" but until the points expire, they are in play. I am not going to use them - by renting them, people are going to Disney and staying on property, which means that money is staying on property. I was able to pay my dues in 2024 by renting points. That is the second time we have done that in 11 years,

But I will not in 2025. We used them to stay at Poly in March.

 

[CastAStone]

I am trying to think of the supply/demand impacts:

1. The mega-renters will probably dump their contracts, flooding the resale market with supply and making values go down.
2. The casual renters will probably get better money when renting their points, as they would no longer be competing with the mega-renters.
3. The customers booking rentals will probably have to pay more due to Point #2. Maybe some of them will buy into DVC which may partially offset Point #1?

In my simplistic view, wait for resale prices to go down, buy a contract, and start renting out your points "casually".

I agree with 1 but not 2 or 3; in my estimation it’s DVCResalestore and David’s that have been pushing prices higher, not the mom and pop renters.

 

[CastAStone]

they don't want to lower new direct sales if the rental restrictions are too severe.

I think it’s impossible for this to happen. If renting was completely banned the impact on direct sales would be virtually zero.

 

[muppets3d]

No, because the personal use definition includes rentals.

So, when you check personal use, you are agreeing that your not renting or selling reservations frequently or regularly. As long as your rentals fall under what could be seen as frequent or regular, your good

That is why the word occasional is also used. Now, DVC get to define that and what you may think falls under that and what DVC does, or I do could be different.

That’s why it’s going to be up to each owner to decide what they think would keep them in line with the contract.

It'll be very interesting to see the fallout from this.

There are people on this board who rent hundreds or thousands of points every year. And of course we don't even need to talk about the brokers who rent far more.

At what point will Disney tap on their shoulders.

I await that with bated breath.

Can Disney cancel memberships and repossess points if members are found to be in violation?

 

[Brian Noble]

I imagine the lawsuits Disney might get for cancelling reservations that people say aren't for commercial purposes won't be worth it to Disney and they cant really figure out how to get rid of this issue or they would have already. Just my opinion.

I disagree. Strongly. Historically, when Disney chooses to play hardball, they do not mess around. And they would not be the first to tread this way. Wyndham and Bluegreen have already done it, and I am guessing that both of them have much less sophisticated in-house counsel.

Granted, I also agree with you that, so far, nothing has happened. This is just more sturm und drang, grist for the mill, etc. etc. etc. I think instead that Disney is beling deliberate. And that's also consistent with how others have tread this path already.

If I had to bet money, the next step will be individual cease & desist letters to specific owners, and that will take on the order of months to a year or more---Disney will probably want to collect sufficient evidence of either (a) an owner consistently not checking the box or (b) an owner that they believe has a pattern of commercial use who has been checking the box.

In the meantime, if a few people are shaken out of the tree through FUD, fine.

 

[Mommb]

Hmmm. We have been owners since 2002. I don't want to rent out our points, but I am vaguely aware that it is permitted in the POS. So, I have questions. Frankly, the wording gives me heartburn. (I don't want to attest to anything that is not true.)

Here are some examples:

What if I suddenly decided to rent our points? It would seem like I should not check that box when making a reservation. (What would happen if I didn't check the box?)

I have gifted points to my sister, Mom, nieces and nephews at various times. (Sometimes I have not been at WDW or DL at the same time). It would seem like it would not be appropriate to check the box for "personal use"--unless I was in the room, too.

Sometimes we get a room for us and a room for our son's family. Again--we'd only be in the one room. Technically, the second room would not be for "personal use".

DVC is differentiating “personal use” from “commercial use.” Personal use doesn’t necessarily mean used by the owner, but rather means not used as a business venture.

Gifting points to friends or family, whether or not you are with them, is clearly personal use. You are giving points to people you know personally and not making money.

Renting points occasionally if you realize you cannot use them due to personal circumstances is personal use.

The unclear part is what constitutes “occasionally” if you are renting points. If you have used your points for yourself, family, and friends for 20 years but next year none of those people wanted to or could use them, and you found someone to pay for them, you can legitimately call it personal use. If you have had used only 10% of your points every year for the past 15 years and rented the rest, it would be harder to justify calling the rentals personal use. There is clearly a gray area in between.

 

[Girlstar30]

I disagree. Strongly. Historically, when Disney chooses to play hardball, they do not mess around. And they would not be the first to tread this way. Wyndham and Bluegreen have already done it, and I am guessing that both of them have much less sophisticated in-house counsel.

Granted, I also agree with you that, so far, nothing has happened. This is just more sturm und drang, grist for the mill, etc. etc. etc. I think instead that Disney is beling deliberate. And that's also consistent with how others have tread this path already.

If I had to bet money, the next step will be individual cease & desist letters to specific owners, and that will take on the order of months to a year or more---Disney will probably want to collect sufficient evidence of either (a) an owner consistently not checking the box or (b) an owner that they believe has a pattern of commercial use who has been checking the box.

In the meantime, if a few people are shaken out of the tree through FUD, fine.

I really hope you are right about the cease and desist letters, I would love for that to happen.

Does Wyndham and Marriott do this? Sorry if you answered that already I haven't had time to catch up with the whole thread.

My wife and I were just discussing that them making someone check a box and then them obviously continuing to rent is further proof for Disney to lay down the hammer in court if need be. And you're also right that Disney doesn't mess around when they want to. I just really want them to want to with more than just words, but i agree the foundation is slowing being layed it seems

 

[Sandisw]

It'll be very interesting to see the fallout from this.

There are people on this board who rent hundreds or thousands of points every year. And of course we don't even need to talk about the brokers who rent far more.

At what point will Disney tap on their shoulders.

I await that with bated breath.

Can Disney cancel memberships and repossess points if members are found to be in violation?

I don’t believe they can….if you read the document it mentions that if someone is found in violation, reservations get canceled and points returned.

So, I think that is a clue that is what will happen. My prediction…this will be enough for those who have bought a lot of points and rent a lot of them to think twice….and that those who are brokers who have been pushing the limits with LLCs, transfer etc will be closely monitored by DVC.

I think we will see fewer confirmed reservations being advertised and brokers sending them via emails to potential renters.

I think DVC is going to take the same approach as always for owners who don’t scream it’s a business making scheme.

 

[Sandisw]

I disagree. Strongly. Historically, when Disney chooses to play hardball, they do not mess around. And they would not be the first to tread this way. Wyndham and Bluegreen have already done it, and I am guessing that both of them have much less sophisticated in-house counsel.

Granted, I also agree with you that, so far, nothing has happened. This is just more sturm und drang, grist for the mill, etc. etc. etc. I think instead that Disney is beling deliberate. And that's also consistent with how others have tread this path already.

If I had to bet money, the next step will be individual cease & desist letters to specific owners, and that will take on the order of months to a year or more---Disney will probably want to collect sufficient evidence of either (a) an owner consistently not checking the box or (b) an owner that they believe has a pattern of commercial use who has been checking the box.

In the meantime, if a few people are shaken out of the tree through FUD, fine.

You can’t confirm the reservation without checking the box….

 

[dcfromva]

DVC is differentiating “personal use” from “commercial use.” Personal use doesn’t necessarily mean used by the owner, but rather means not used as a business venture.

Gifting points to friends or family, whether or not you are with them, is clearly personal use. You are giving points to people you know personally and not making money.

Renting points occasionally if you realize you cannot use them due to personal circumstances is personal use.

The unclear part is what constitutes “occasionally” if you are renting points. If you have used your points for yourself, family, and friends for 20 years but next year none of those people wanted to or could use them, and you found someone to pay for them, you can legitimately call it personal use. If you have had used only 10% of your points every year for the past 15 years and rented the rest, it would be harder to justify calling the rentals personal use. There is clearly a gray area in between.

How does Disney know I am gifting the points vs renting the points for $$?
How does Disney know they are my family vs complete strangers?
I haven't seen Disney clarify what personal use is. (Which in my opinion is key here since they are the ones who will be making decisions and enforcing policy).

I don't know the percentage of points that we gift in a year. (That might be interesting to go back and check ) But, what if more than 50% of the reservations we make are for family members? (Frankly--that day may be coming as DH and I get older and less able to make trips to WDW and DL). Will Disney have some sort of formula where they start canceling reservations?

 

[CastAStone]

One of the big rental Facebook groups just paused new listings based on this info and is encouraging owners to reach out to lawyers over the new terms

that is quite the overreaction. On both points.

 

[matt_in_nh]

I must say there is what I would say is an unusual market of confirmed reservations. It is clear what is happening and fixing it is good for the people who want to vacation at Disney. There must be groups who have formed partnerships to collect contracts and book the desirable rooms and dates. Like some have said there are likely bots involved with the amount of walking that goes on.

I am curious to see the fallout. How much will this impact resale? If it is significant will the rofr dude actually wake up? Of course that does not mean they can sell more at the direct rates but today’s news can increase the difference in resale vs direct. It seems to me Disney wants a weak resale market. They want to be the ones buying when someone wants to sell but at a low price.

I think there will be groups who start to offload contracts. It is so easy for Disney to know who is buying contracts to rent. In fact they already know. Someone with one contract who rents half their points is not the target. It is the people with max contracts and points who rarely if ever actually go to Disney.

And they won’t let someone show up to find out a reservation was cancelled. They will do it way in advance. But if they do the commercial entities who bought contracts just to rent will be dumping contracts.

 

[Sandisw]

I really hope you are right about the cease and desist letters, I would love for that to happen.

Does Wyndham and Marriott do this? Sorry if you answered that already I haven't had time to catch up with the whole thread.

My wife and I were just discussing that them making someone check a box and then them obviously continuing to rent is further proof for Disney to lay down the hammer in court if need be. And you're also right that Disney doesn't mess around when they want to. I just really want them to want to with more than just words, but i agree the foundation is slowing being layed it seems

Just to clarify one point…checking the box that says it’s for personal use does not mean you are saying it’s not a rental.

You are saying that it falls within your right to make a reservation under the personal use aspect of the contract.

For example, if I am making a rental and check that box and it’s my only rental that year, I am still going to be fine.

If I am an owner who is now making my 15th reservation in the names of others, and it’s been happening yearly, and still checking that box, then I’ve given DVC evidence that they could say doesn’t mesh with those terms as it clearly seems I’m doing reservations frequently and regularly.

Why do you think that they didn’t have us attest it’s “not a rental”? Because renting reservations is allowed….just not so many that it’s clear you have a different motive for owning.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I imagine the lawsuits Disney might get

You’ll have to keep imagining. As with the other (much larger) timeshare operations that already went through this… lots of people threaten lawsuits. None really follow through.

 

[matt_in_nh]

How does Disney know I am gifting the points vs renting the points for $$?
How does Disney know they are my family vs complete strangers?
I haven't seen Disney clarify what personal use is. (Which in my opinion is key here since they are the ones who will be making decisions and enforcing policy).

I don't know the percentage of points that we gift in a year. (That might be interesting to go back and check ) But, what if more than 50% of the reservations we make are for family members? (Frankly--that day may be coming as DH and I get older and less able to make trips to WDW and DL). Will Disney have some sort of formula where they start canceling reservations?

I don’t believe what you are doing is the target at alll. There is a robust commercial industry that has formed and they are going after them.