DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss! **Check Post #1678 - Walking Language????

[tx911]

Maybe I read your post wrong - but my point is - If DVC limits rentals - how will they determine what’s a rental vs friends/family…can’t just make an assumption that any ressie that doesn’t include your name is a rental or vice versa - how would they make the distinction and determine what’s goes into your 50% rental limit and what doesn’t?

How often do you book for your family without you yourself going with them, even if it’s in a different room?

DVC has years of data, eventually, on all the members. I don’t think it would be that difficult to detect suspicious bookings versus the same family members showing up over and over again.

 

[mkatsy]

Here is an attorney that says it doesn't apply to condo associations, only HOAs
https://ssclawfirm.com/news-events/in-the-news/navigating-leasing-rights-in-homeowners-and-condominium-associations#:~:text=For condominiums, Section 718.110

"Homeowners’ Associations and Leasing Amendments

Chapter 720 of the Florida Statutes is called the Florida Homeowners’ Association Act. This law was amended in 2021 to address amendments that regulate the leasing of “parcels” within a homeowners’ association. Typically, the parcel is the home and the land the home sits on, and usually other improved or unimproved portions of lots.

A new Section 720.306(1)(h) was added, which says that any amendment to the homeowners’ association’s governing documents, adopted after July 1, 2021, that prohibits or regulates rental agreements, only applies to a parcel owner that acquires title to their parcel after the effective date of the amendment, or to a parcel owner who consents to the amendment. However, this restriction does not apply to amendments which regulate or prohibit rental agreements for terms of 6 months or less. Further, amendments that prohibit the rental of parcels for more than 3 times in a calendar year also apply to all parcel owners.

Homeowners’ associations continue to have the ability to adopt amendments that regulate or prohibit leases of 6 months or less, and still have the ability to adopt amendments which prohibit leasing more than 3 times in a calendar year.

Condominium Associations and Leasing Amendments

For condominiums, Section 718.110(13) of the Florida Condominium Act states that any amendment which prohibits a unit owner from leasing their unit, alters the duration of the rental term, or limits the number of times an owner may rent their unit during a specified period, only applies to those owners who take title after the effective date of the amendment, or those owners who consent to the amendment. There is no 6-month/3 times per year exception in the Condominium Act."

Ahhh … important difference! My bad … all my battles are in the world of the HOA … carry on

 

[tx911]

No one ever could point to the language in the contract that supported that position.....because the word intent alone was not enough....but all it would take was updated language

Turns out, it was already there!!! And, most importantly, it is there with the consequence (cancel or modification) so that there is no question what will happen to you if you are caught by DVC doing something fraudelant and misleading....

ETA: Since this is not new, and DVC has been allowing it, maybe they won't be doing anything...but, given the other updates and desire to take care of rentals, maybe they will enforce this clause against walking.

I’ll tell you it wouldn’t take too many cancelled reservations before walking came to a screeching halt.

 

[Sandisw]

Perhaps they can explain why the renting provision applies to DVC but the EV charger one doesn't.

My guess is that it is because our ground lease is on WDW property and the terms of our contract state that we are bound by the rules of the hotels on property when it comes to certain things.

Link the statute you are talking about though because this is just a guess since I know nothing about that law.

 

[Mouseforward]

Ahhh … important difference! My bad … all my battles are in the world of the HOA … carry on

LOL, I only learned HOA and COA were different after getting on an HOA board.

 

[BeachClub2014]

They don't now , kinda the issue.

About 1/2 my reservations are in a sisters or nephews name ( I am usually in my own room as I don't share) With MDE I can't have my name on 2 rooms or it is a freaking nightmare to get a MB to work.

Disney IT for the win again.

Yep, I know. We go through that same tissue frequently.

We have 86 pages of discussion about how dvc is going to start cracking down on mega renters and others. I have no idea how they will determine which reservations are rentals and which are family and friend guests. You'll have to ask them.

 

[TCRAIG]

However they do it now, I presume.

Which is - judging by all the comments in this thread - they don’t and they haven’t really cared about rental volume til just recently. I think if DVC were to set a # of points or % of points you can rent limit - more people like you and me (use our points for friends and family) would get ‘caught in the net’ so to speak…because there’s no verifiable way to determine what’s a rental and what’s not.

 

[TCRAIG]

How often do you book for your family without you yourself going with them, even if it’s in a different room?

DVC has years of data, eventually, on all the members. I don’t think it would be that difficult to detect suspicious bookings versus the same family members showing up over and over again.

I have 4 brothers, 2 sisters and 12 nieces and nephews…and 66 cousins - and lots and lots of friends who all love my Disney gifts
And other than with my daughter - everyone get their own room.

 

[tx911]

I have 4 brothers, 2 sisters and 12 nieces and nephews…and 66 cousins - and lots and lots of friends who all love my Disney gifts
And other than with my daughter - everyone get their own room.

Well, I’d say you’d just have to be ready to prove they’re family if it came to that.

 

[Mouseforward]

Yep, I know. We go through that same tissue frequently.

We have 86 pages of discussion about how dvc is going to start cracking down on mega renters and others. I have no idea how they will determine which reservations are rentals and which are family and friend guests. You'll have to ask them.

As someone in IT we have to realize that all of this is controlled by a small group of IT folk at DVC who could be coming to work stoned off their gourd after a night of playing fantasy video games.

Our expectations on their ability to analyze booking patterns may be a bit high.

I have seen worse and I work in healthcare IT.

 

[TCRAIG]

They don't now , kinda the issue.

About 1/2 my reservations are in a sisters or nephews name ( I am usually in my own room as I don't share) With MDE I can't have my name on 2 rooms or it is a freaking nightmare to get a MB to work.

Disney IT for the win again.

Sometimes I use a slightly different version of my name on a second room that’s not tied to MDE or AP or MB…and then just use a room key card for room access.

 

[Tatebeck]

As someone in IT we have to realize that all of this is controlled by a small group of IT folk at DVC who could be coming to work stoned off their gourd after a night of playing fantasy video games.

I've heard that's when they do their best work

 

[Genie+]

I think the FL statute from 2021 doesn’t really apply to the current issues at hand.

Our contracts let us rent. That is not going away.

Our contracts prohibit commercial use. That is not going away.

I’ve not seen anything that suggests a serious attempt to change those (from DVC or owners).

Both are possible at the same time, like owners doing the occasional rental on points that were bought with the intention of personal use and do not develop patterns of use that are hard to defend as personal use.

People engaging in the most questionable activity probably already thought out exit strategies. If playing the game well, likely to still come out ahead in the end.

DVC is a condominium therefore the FL Stat. § 718.110(13) applies

Link: https://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/2023/11/29/implementing-condominium-restrictions/

Fla. Stat. § 718.110(13) expressly limits amendments relating to rentals as follows:

(13) An amendment prohibiting unit owners from renting their units or altering the duration of the rental term or specifying or limiting the number of times unit owners are entitled to rent their units during a specified period applies only to unit owners who consent to the amendment and unit owners who acquire title to their units after the effective date of that amendment.

DVC more strongly enforcing commercial use prohibited, while still allowing rental(s) as already written and allowed in our contracts, and not trying to amend our contracts to outlaw renting… doesn’t not seem at issue with this particular statute.

One way to look at it is they are not changing the allowance of rentals, just tidying up things that are falling well outside personal use.

 

[TCRAIG]

As someone in IT we have to realize that all of this is controlled by a small group of IT folk at DVC who could be coming to work stoned off their gourd after a night of playing fantasy video games.

Our expectations on their ability to analyze booking patterns may be a bit high.

I have seen worse and I work in healthcare IT.

Same - and I worked in banking

 

[tx911]

I think the FL statute from 2021 doesn’t really apply to the current issues at hand.

Our contracts let us rent. That is not going away.

Our contracts prohibit commercial use. That is not going away.

I’ve not seen anything that suggests a serious attempt to change those (from DVC or owners).

Both are possible at the same time, like owners doing the occasional rental on points that were bought with the intention of personal use and do not develop patterns of use that are hard to defend as personal use.

People engaging in the most questionable activity probably already thought out exit strategies. If playing the game well, likely to still come out ahead in the end.



DVC more strongly enforcing commercial use prohibited, while still allowing rental(s) as already written and allowed in our contracts, and not trying to amend our contracts to outlaw renting… doesn’t not seem at issue with this particular statute.

One way to look at it is they are not changing the allowance of rentals, just tidying up things that are falling well outside personal use.

Going back to what @Brian Noble was saying, all Disney has to do is just enough to collapse rental demand. Cancel a few dozen reservation from the big players, and everyone will be afraid to rent in no time. The same would happen with any crackdown on walking.

 

[Genie+]

Our expectations on their ability to analyze booking patterns may be a bit high.

The same company who spent $2b for MagicBands and MDE to track everything from our fav restrooms to what color socks we buy. I left MDE on by accident after I returned home. They were tracking my phone location 7 times a day for almost a month before I caught it.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Here is an attorney that says it doesn't apply to condo associations, only HOAs
https://ssclawfirm.com/news-events/in-the-news/navigating-leasing-rights-in-homeowners-and-condominium-associations#:~:text=For condominiums, Section 718.110

"Homeowners’ Associations and Leasing Amendments

Chapter 720 of the Florida Statutes is called the Florida Homeowners’ Association Act. This law was amended in 2021 to address amendments that regulate the leasing of “parcels” within a homeowners’ association. Typically, the parcel is the home and the land the home sits on, and usually other improved or unimproved portions of lots.

A new Section 720.306(1)(h) was added, which says that any amendment to the homeowners’ association’s governing documents, adopted after July 1, 2021, that prohibits or regulates rental agreements, only applies to a parcel owner that acquires title to their parcel after the effective date of the amendment, or to a parcel owner who consents to the amendment. However, this restriction does not apply to amendments which regulate or prohibit rental agreements for terms of 6 months or less. Further, amendments that prohibit the rental of parcels for more than 3 times in a calendar year also apply to all parcel owners.

Homeowners’ associations continue to have the ability to adopt amendments that regulate or prohibit leases of 6 months or less, and still have the ability to adopt amendments which prohibit leasing more than 3 times in a calendar year.

Condominium Associations and Leasing Amendments

For condominiums, Section 718.110(13) of the Florida Condominium Act states that any amendment which prohibits a unit owner from leasing their unit, alters the duration of the rental term, or limits the number of times an owner may rent their unit during a specified period, only applies to those owners who take title after the effective date of the amendment, or those owners who consent to the amendment. There is no 6-month/3 times per year exception in the Condominium Act."

Maybe I misunderstood your post but since DVC is condominium association then section 718.110(13) applies to DVC.

 

[Sandisw]

Here is an attorney that says it doesn't apply to condo associations, only HOAs
https://ssclawfirm.com/news-events/in-the-news/navigating-leasing-rights-in-homeowners-and-condominium-associations#:~:text=For condominiums, Section 718.110

"Homeowners’ Associations and Leasing Amendments

Chapter 720 of the Florida Statutes is called the Florida Homeowners’ Association Act. This law was amended in 2021 to address amendments that regulate the leasing of “parcels” within a homeowners’ association. Typically, the parcel is the home and the land the home sits on, and usually other improved or unimproved portions of lots.

A new Section 720.306(1)(h) was added, which says that any amendment to the homeowners’ association’s governing documents, adopted after July 1, 2021, that prohibits or regulates rental agreements, only applies to a parcel owner that acquires title to their parcel after the effective date of the amendment, or to a parcel owner who consents to the amendment. However, this restriction does not apply to amendments which regulate or prohibit rental agreements for terms of 6 months or less. Further, amendments that prohibit the rental of parcels for more than 3 times in a calendar year also apply to all parcel owners.

Homeowners’ associations continue to have the ability to adopt amendments that regulate or prohibit leases of 6 months or less, and still have the ability to adopt amendments which prohibit leasing more than 3 times in a calendar year.

Condominium Associations and Leasing Amendments

For condominiums, Section 718.110(13) of the Florida Condominium Act states that any amendment which prohibits a unit owner from leasing their unit, alters the duration of the rental term, or limits the number of times an owner may rent their unit during a specified period, only applies to those owners who take title after the effective date of the amendment, or those owners who consent to the amendment. There is no 6-month/3 times per year exception in the Condominium Act."

Thank you! That is probably why when this was shared that wasn't part of it.....now, what will be interesting to see how DVC meshes this with the new law.

 

[TCRAIG]

Well, I’d say you’d just have to be ready to prove they’re family if it came to that.

Which is why putting an actual limit on points or %of points gets the HECK FIRE NO from me…how am I supposed to PROVE they’re my family or my friends or even a friend of my family? Blood test? Sworn affidavit? Christmas card?

 

[tx911]

Which is why putting an actual limit on points or %of points gets the HECK FIRE NO from me…how am I supposed to PROVE they’re my family or my friends or even a friend of my family? Blood test? Sworn affidavit? Christmas card?

The discussion came up because of a similar policy by Wyndham. I suppose owners who couldn't make it work under the new rules just sell. I feel like your circumstance, especially the 66 cousin part, would be a pretty rare use of DVC points.

Personally I am generous with my points when it comes to family, but I'm always joining them on the trip and it's always the same groups of people. Also every one of them are in my Friends and Family list on the app.

ETA: I'll also add that if you were gifting that many points, I still would feel like you perhaps bought too many. If you want to be generous to your cousins and not use the points yourself, just buy them their own contracts.