DVC Rental

AaronEuth

Mouseketeer
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Does anyone know how the various DVC rental sites figure out the rates for posting a confirmed reservation for rent. I recently posted a confirmed reservation to dvcrentalstore.com. When calculating the cost for the guest, the price per point was marked up an extreme amount over what I requested as my payment. The price to the rental guest is $34/point, which is $16 per point above my requested payment of $18. That seems rather extreme, and makes me concerned that the reservation will not rent.

Does anyone have experience with a similar situation? Should I be worried, or do confirmed reservations actually rent at such a high rate?
 
WOW! That is really high. I mean, if its a great resort and hard to get time, it's totally possible it'll rent. David's is $23 per point for premium resorts at 11 mth booking window. I've only ever used them.
 
Does anyone know how the various DVC rental sites figure out the rates for posting a confirmed reservation for rent. I recently posted a confirmed reservation to dvcrentalstore.com. When calculating the cost for the guest, the price per point was marked up an extreme amount over what I requested as my payment. The price to the rental guest is $34/point, which is $16 per point above my requested payment of $18. That seems rather extreme, and makes me concerned that the reservation will not rent.

Does anyone have experience with a similar situation? Should I be worried, or do confirmed reservations actually rent at such a high rate?
I recently inquired with dvcrentalstore.com and ran into the same issue. The highest they would pay out was $20 pp and they would not tell me what they would list my confirmed reservation for. I was concerned as well that the reservation would not rent since some listings were at $30+ pp. dvcstore.com allows you to state whatever price pp you want to receive and they then mark up the listing by $4 pp. Seems reasonable so I listed with them.
 
I recently inquired with dvcrentalstore.com and ran into the same issue. The highest they would pay out was $20 pp and they would not tell me what they would list my confirmed reservation for. I was concerned as well that the reservation would not rent since some listings were at $30+ pp. dvcstore.com allows you to state whatever price pp you want to receive and they then mark up the listing by $4 pp. Seems reasonable so I listed with them.
That was my understanding as well, I stated I would like $18 per point, but it's listed at $34 per point, which is far more than the markup I expected. It doesn't actually say that in the confirmed reservation listing, just the total price, but I know how many points it is (as would any informed renter) and did the math (1768 for a 52 point reservation).

At that price, I am debating removing the listing and just renting it out on my own, since it would probably be way faster.
 
How far into the future is this confirmed reservation?

I'm guessing they (dvcstorerental) would like to make as large a profit as possible, and probably have some experience on what's renting for what price. They may even lower the price as the time gets closer. That said, their risk is small and their reward great just seeing what happens. You, on the other hand, risk having to scramble toward the end to either cancel or find a buyer and do something with your points. I assume they haven't guaranteed they'd find a renter, i.e. you'll get your money either way?

If it were me, I would wait maybe 90 days out (and even tell dvcstore that's your comfort level for waiting) before canceling, since you've already done some of the setup with them. They then have the option to work with your deadline or just follow their normal process and hope for the best. Either way, at 90 days out you still have time to find a good renter for your reservation.

My two cents/points
 
Does anyone know how the various DVC rental sites figure out the rates for posting a confirmed reservation for rent.

I have only done this previously with David's. I was able to select the amount I wanted to receive and they added a standard amount, which I think is currently $5. I had obviously set my price too low as my reservation went in a couple of hours! :)
 
Its a complete joke that they "get what they can" yet give you just normal rates. Facebook is essentially a better option honestly and rent it direct with someone.

I literally laughed when they sent me a note how it was done.
 
Agree. I rented the majority of my 2022 & 2023 DVC points between here on the rental board and a FB group. $34/pt seems outrageous to me. I know there is no way I'd pay that for a rental and I bought BCV transfer points off the rental board here last year.
 
I've been trying to keep my eye out for a confirmed reservation at the Boardwalk for the summer and found this site DVC Rental Pros that lists all of the reservations from the major sites. Some of the pricing seems insane on a per point basis, in the $50's/$60's/$70's and even I saw a studio for one night at the Boardwalk for $100 something per point for the night. I have to imagine these confirmed reservations are a large contributor to making rooms more difficult to book as well.
 
n the $50's/$60's/$70's and even I saw a studio for one night at the Boardwalk for $100 something per point for the night. I have to imagine these confirmed reservations are a large contributor to making rooms more difficult to book as well.
This really needs to stop. DVC is not supposed to be bought and used on a commercial basis, and I am confident it is making it harder for the rest of us to use our points. I wonder if DVC will eventually crack down on the commercial sites in the same manner that Wyndham has. The language in the DVC contract certainly gives DVC some wiggle room to go after commercial renters.

Edit: To be clear, I’m not talking about people renting out their excess points on disboards, or David’s, but when you start talking about the obscene rent-for-profit prices talked about above? That’s ludicrous. In some cases they are being listed well over cash rack rate just because the cash rooms are already sold out for those dates.
 
I've been trying to keep my eye out for a confirmed reservation at the Boardwalk for the summer and found this site DVC Rental Pros that lists all of the reservations from the major sites. Some of the pricing seems insane on a per point basis, in the $50's/$60's/$70's and even I saw a studio for one night at the Boardwalk for $100 something per point for the night. I have to imagine these confirmed reservations are a large contributor to making rooms more difficult to book as well.
I never heard of this site but looked at out. With the exception of just a couple, only a handful are over $31pp. Most are between $23-28.
 
Update: Original reservation rented after about a month. I didn't track to see if the advertised priced was lowered at any point, but my payout remained as originally requested. So I guess they do know what they are doing in regards to their retail pricing vs demand.
 
This really needs to stop. DVC is not supposed to be bought and used on a commercial basis, and I am confident it is making it harder for the rest of us to use our points. I wonder if DVC will eventually crack down on the commercial sites in the same manner that Wyndham has. The language in the DVC contract certainly gives DVC some wiggle room to go after commercial renters.

Edit: To be clear, I’m not talking about people renting out their excess points on disboards, or David’s, but when you start talking about the obscene rent-for-profit prices talked about above? That’s ludicrous. In some cases they are being listed well over cash rack rate just because the cash rooms are already sold out for those dates.
The trouble is that the owner isn’t getting those dollars, the middle man agency is. How could DVC police it? It might be the owner’s only rental ever.
 
This really needs to stop. DVC is not supposed to be bought and used on a commercial basis, and I am confident it is making it harder for the rest of us to use our points. I wonder if DVC will eventually crack down on the commercial sites in the same manner that Wyndham has. The language in the DVC contract certainly gives DVC some wiggle room to go after commercial renters.

Edit: To be clear, I’m not talking about people renting out their excess points on disboards, or David’s, but when you start talking about the obscene rent-for-profit prices talked about above? That’s ludicrous. In some cases they are being listed well over cash rack rate just because the cash rooms are already sold out for those dates.
The actual renters who make the reservations are hundreds of members. The DVC Rental Store is just the middle man finding persons for whom the the DVC member can then put on the reservation. The Store has no contract with DVD/DVC and thus cannot be sued by DVD/DVC for breaking any of the rules laid out in the POS applicable to members. I do not know how the Store determines it prices but the members are generally limited to getting $16 (7-month out reservation) or $18 (during 11-month window) per point for any rental, regardless of the price the Store puts on the reservation. A number of the rentals look excessive while many are just in the $23 to $25 range. If what the Store is doing is charging higher for rooms shown as full on Disney's own site for room reservations, I would consider that to be a bad business decision for the Store and the member involved. People turn to getting DVC rentals not because they must have the particular rooms being offered, but to get a room for a good discount from what Disney is charging for comparable hotels..

DVD/DVC would need to go against the members to stop the rentals. It is limited in that ability because renting is expressly allowed under the definition of personal use in the POS. Members are precluded from owning DVC for a "commercial purpose" but a member just renting to recover maintenance costs, renting reservations they intended to use but now cannot, renting excess banked points accumulated from the pandemic, or even renting to make some profit while still using points to reserve family trips, cannot be considered in be in violation of the commercial purpose restriction. The POS, besides that provision, repeatedly refers to "commercial" units, which are units used to conduct businesses, such restaurants and stores. Even DVC has previously shown that the "commercial purpose" restriction is designed to prevent members from being in the business of doing profit-making reservations, when, in 2007, in response to a number of members using many thousands of points to make and then rent reservations for for hard to get rooms in hard to get times (such as the first two weeks of Dec and Christmas week). DVC provided to members the rule it would follow to determine if the member was violating the commercial purpose rule. That rule provided that a member who made more than 20 reservations in a year would be presumed to be violating the commercial purpose provision, and he could not make more reservations unless he could prove the reservations already made were all for personal use.

Thus, to go after the members to prevent the listings, DVC would need to determine which members, if any, providing those rentals are likely violating the rules. The list itself does not provide information from which that can be determined since none of the members are identified and DVC Rental has no obligation to provide the identity of the members doing the rentals to DVC. However, DVC can quickly determine whether any member, regardless of that list, is currently violating the 20 reservation rule by simply going into its own reservation files, and if that shows none, then it would know the members who have reservations on the Store list are not violating its rules.

Note also, one should not automatically conclude that the list is making it harder for other members to make reservations. I have recently reviewed the DVC Rental Store List and from what I can see almost all of the 585 offered rentals are for rooms and times that members could usually get at 11-months out and many at 7-months out.The list is not full of hard to get reservations at hard to get times. DVC has two demand seasons: the high season, often referred to as the "fall" season. from late Sep to marathon weekend in Jan, and the moderate demand season the rest of the year. Ninety-percent of all the reservations on the list are in the moderate season. BWV standard view studios and AKV value studios have a serious 11-month issue and can be difficult for members to get even right at 11-months out most of the year. The list has only one BWV standard view studio reservation, in June, and one value studio reservation, which has a start date in the next 30 days, and thus most likely from a member who could not do the reservation and is now trying to avoid holding. There are many reservations for OKW, SSR, Poly, and Kidani, which do not have an 11-month issue and are often available at 7 months out. In essence, the list indicates the members providing the reservations are likely not violating any rules.
 
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a member just renting to recover maintenance costs, renting reservations they intended to use but now cannot, renting excess banked points accumulated from the pandemic, or even renting to make some profit while still using points to reserve family trips, cannot be considered in be in violation of the commercial purpose restriction
[emphasis added]

Cannot is a strong word. I don't know if there is precedent in Florida law defining "commercial purpose" in a way that definitively excludes all of those situations. I'm also fairly sure that there is language in the POS that allows Disney in its "sole and unfettered discretion" to interpret many things, and this is probably one of them. Even if it is not, Disney has the benefit of the "first move" in this game, and can make (and impose!) its determination on the owners it believes are in the wrong. It is then up to those owners to fight it or change.

The other timeshare systems that have been down this road (and there are a couple, with Wyndham being the most notable example) have found this strategy to be very successful. The ownership at large generally applauds these moves, because (a) most owners don't rent and (b) it's pretty easy to decide that renters are the Big Bad when it comes to availability, even when it is not true.

For example, Wyndham owners have been complaining about "megarenters" for as long as I've been an owner there. Wyndham's current definition of commercial use (appears to) include the following in at least some cases: a pattern of advertising for renters one did not previously know or have a relationship with, using images that Wyndham has copyright on in such advertisements even once, putting guests on more than some threshold of reservations (measured by # of reservations and/or points used), among others. When Wyndham decides an owner has violated the commercial use clause, they send a letter telling the owner they are in violation, and to refrain from using a guest certificate for the next 90 days. An owner that violates that has their account suspended.

A garden variety owner just stops renting for a while, and cuts back on the renting they do after that. As far as the developer is concerned, that's a win. They don't need to stop it, they just need to slow it down enough. But an owner who really is doing this as a side hustle is in a bind. That's because their maintenance fee payments are not suspended, and if they've been depending on rental revenue to make their payments, well....

The Wyndham owners who've been public about this over on TUG have all gotten out of the game, and sold off or deeded back the "rental" portion of what they own. A few have decided to "take Wydnham on" to which the rest of us mostly say: Good luck, and God bless.

Disney has in at least some cases followed the lead of other timeshare systems when it comes to program "refinements" (see: resale restrictions). Will they here? Who knows. But if even a non-trivial minority of DVC owners start to view confirmed reservations offered for rent as the Big Bad, Disney very well might. And, there's already rumbling to that effect when people see all those near-park studios during Fall Frenzy, reserved during the Home Resort period, on the various confirmed reservations for rent lists.
 
[emphasis added]

Cannot is a strong word. I don't know if there is precedent in Florida law defining "commercial purpose" in a way that definitively excludes all of those situations. I'm also fairly sure that there is language in the POS that allows Disney in its "sole and unfettered discretion" to interpret many things, and this is probably one of them. Even if it is not, Disney has the benefit of the "first move" in this game, and can make (and impose!) its determination on the owners it believes are in the wrong. It is then up to those owners to fight it or change.

The other timeshare systems that have been down this road (and there are a couple, with Wyndham being the most notable example) have found this strategy to be very successful. The ownership at large generally applauds these moves, because (a) most owners don't rent and (b) it's pretty easy to decide that renters are the Big Bad when it comes to availability, even when it is not true.

For example, Wyndham owners have been complaining about "megarenters" for as long as I've been an owner there. Wyndham's current definition of commercial use (appears to) include the following in at least some cases: a pattern of advertising for renters one did not previously know or have a relationship with, using images that Wyndham has copyright on in such advertisements even once, putting guests on more than some threshold of reservations (measured by # of reservations and/or points used), among others. When Wyndham decides an owner has violated the commercial use clause, they send a letter telling the owner they are in violation, and to refrain from using a guest certificate for the next 90 days. An owner that violates that has their account suspended.

A garden variety owner just stops renting for a while, and cuts back on the renting they do after that. As far as the developer is concerned, that's a win. They don't need to stop it, they just need to slow it down enough. But an owner who really is doing this as a side hustle is in a bind. That's because their maintenance fee payments are not suspended, and if they've been depending on rental revenue to make their payments, well....

The Wyndham owners who've been public about this over on TUG have all gotten out of the game, and sold off or deeded back the "rental" portion of what they own. A few have decided to "take Wydnham on" to which the rest of us mostly say: Good luck, and God bless.

Disney has in at least some cases followed the lead of other timeshare systems when it comes to program "refinements" (see: resale restrictions). Will they here? Who knows. But if even a non-trivial minority of DVC owners start to view confirmed reservations offered for rent as the Big Bad, Disney very well might. And, there's already rumbling to that effect when people see all those near-park studios during Fall Frenzy, reserved during the Home Resort period, on the various confirmed reservations for rent lists.
The actual commercial purpose provision provides a meaning that says that it cannot preclude things defined as personal use (which actually includes rentals), and then says that a commercial purpose is "a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice." So yes, there is some discretion. However, DVC itself, likely because its lawyers told it that it could go no further in 2007, possibly because a "commercial enterprise" appears in numerous statutes that apply to persons or entities in the business of making money, adopted the 20-reservation rule as its applied meaning for the clause, i.e., DVC has publicly already conceded that the rule cannot just disallow rentals, including those done for profit. Violation requires an accumulation of rentals to show a main purpose of having points is to make profits.

DVC does not have and cannot have the Wyndham megarenter problem, which involved members owning a huge number of points (at least in one case 8,000,000) and making huge profits out of the many reservations those members made for hard to get rooms at hard to get times. Wyndham apparently had no limit to the number of points a member could own.

DVC has always had a strict limit to total points a member can own, originally 2,000 for one resort and 5,000 total, currently 4,000/8,000, and that total cannot be exceeded by an owner's combining with other "Ownership Interests," such as purchasing different memberships or having separate memberships for husband and wife. See "Public Offering Statement Text" even in the POS from the 1990's that appears before the Declarations. That combined ownership limit also applies to a member having any association with other members who can make reservations, such as by becoming an associate member on another's membership, or setting up corporations or other entities designed to have members join ownership interests to make reservations, see the current Home Resort Rules and Regultations, sec. II.1. If DVC learned of any situationn where an owner, or combination of owners, controlled a huge amount of points beyond the current 4,000/8,000 maximum to make reservations, DVC could shut those owners down. That was an actual problem in the mid-2,000s when DVC adopted the 20 reservation rule, because members were circumventing the total maximum points rule, including by a member getting a huge numbers of transfers into the member' s account because, at the time, a member could take in an unlimited number of transfers in any given use year, and the member could gain control of lots of points by becoming an associate member with many other memberships. Besides the 20 reservation rule, at the time DVC adopted two other rules, changing the transfer limit to only one per use year, in or out, and limiting one's associate memberships to four.

Moreover, other than the limits described above, DVC already has an allowed method to deal with the problem of having an excess number of reservation requests for hard to get rooms at hard to get times, which method it actually used in the 1990's for Dec 23 through Dec 31. DVC can set up a Special Season Preference List (SSPL). for the applicable resorts and time periods. See Home Resort Rules and Regulations, sec. II.10. For the given resort and time period, the usual 11/7 reservation rule would not be followed. Members who want reservations for during the time specified would submit their reservation requests long before the 11-month window opens, and then before 11-months out, reservations would be confirmed with members on the list in the order that they made the requests. Thereafter, 11/7 reservations would be filled only in the event the rooms did not fill through the SSPL or cancellations were later made. The SSPL also rectifies any possible excess renter problem because a member is allowed to request only one reservation on the SSPL.
 
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You might be right--it might be the case that Disney never decides owners that rent are "a problem." But, if they do, you can bet that they will bend every rule in the POS to do what they want. I've spent way too many years watching the Mouse react to people it thought were profiting off of its back to rule it out.

And in the meantime, folks can get while the getting is good. Who knows? The party might never end. I'd want to be one of the first out the door if it does though, because if it does there are going to be a lot of sellers in a short amount of time. Reminds me of that scene from Margin Call: "Be first, be smarter, or cheat."

Will it happen? Unlikely, for all the reasons you give. But, a five (or six) figure investment in which rental revenue is important probably warrants some care. That's particularly true for people who are in the business of buying/stripping/selling contracts to generate a cheap flow of rental points, and there were at least a few pre-pandemic. They are the folks in the "smarter" category. The problem with smarter is you are until you aren't, and you usually don't realize it until after it's happened.

What it will take is some loud fraction of the membership convinced that confirmed reservations that "those renters people" are booking to rent are a problem, and to have that noise starting to impact the sales floor. The good news is that timeshare sales floors are mostly impervious to noise, or they'd all be long gone.

This is all another reason why renting timeshares seems like too much sugar for a dime to me. I'll be over here with my boring index funds. I like boring, because I'm not smarter, I don't cheat, and I don't like the anxiety of trying to be first.
 
You might be right--it might be the case that Disney never decides owners that rent are "a problem." But, if they do, you can bet that they will bend every rule in the POS to do what they want. I've spent way too many years watching the Mouse react to people it thought were profiting off of its back to rule it out.

And in the meantime, folks can get while the getting is good. Who knows? The party might never end. I'd want to be one of the first out the door if it does though, because if it does there are going to be a lot of sellers in a short amount of time. Reminds me of that scene from Margin Call: "Be first, be smarter, or cheat."

Will it happen? Unlikely, for all the reasons you give. But, a five (or six) figure investment in which rental revenue is important probably warrants some care. That's particularly true for people who are in the business of buying/stripping/selling contracts to generate a cheap flow of rental points, and there were at least a few pre-pandemic. They are the folks in the "smarter" category. The problem with smarter is you are until you aren't, and you usually don't realize it until after it's happened.

What it will take is some loud fraction of the membership convinced that confirmed reservations that "those renters people" are booking to rent are a problem, and to have that noise starting to impact the sales floor. The good news is that timeshare sales floors are mostly impervious to noise, or they'd all be long gone.

This is all another reason why renting timeshares seems like too much sugar for a dime to me. I'll be over here with my boring index funds. I like boring, because I'm not smarter, I don't cheat, and I don't like the anxiety of trying to be first.

I think it will end. DVC rentals are undercutting Disney's hotel business, and frankly, Disney needs the profits. The pandemic has not been good to their movie business, the streaming business is a sinkhole that they throw cash into and maybe someday it will come back. Pent up demand from the pandemic has meant that the parks business boomed in 2022 - but now that the pent up demand is done with....? Plus, if Disney can buy back contracts for less than what we paid for them, they get hotel rooms to sell for less than what it would cost them to build them, plus they got the profit when the DVC resorts originally went up for sale. Its a win-win for Disney as a corporate entity.

I don't think it will happen because members complain. The membership has been complaining about rentals forever. It will happen because some bean counter gets the notice of the CFO with numbers that show rentals are undercutting Disney hotel profits by however many millions of dollars, and some of those can be recaptured if Disney becomes aggressive on "commercial use."

Now, end next week, next year - nope. Doubt that. If it happens though, you can bet your back end that we will get told its because "the membership asked for it" but if that were the reason, they would have changed the POS way back in the early 2000 when the membership started asking for it and had it apply to all subsequent resorts.
 
I think it will end. DVC rentals are undercutting Disney's hotel business, and frankly, Disney needs the profits. The pandemic has not been good to their movie business, the streaming business is a sinkhole that they throw cash into and maybe someday it will come back. Pent up demand from the pandemic has meant that the parks business boomed in 2022 - but now that the pent up demand is done with....? Plus, if Disney can buy back contracts for less than what we paid for them, they get hotel rooms to sell for less than what it would cost them to build them, plus they got the profit when the DVC resorts originally went up for sale. Its a win-win for Disney as a corporate entity.

I don't think it will happen because members complain. The membership has been complaining about rentals forever. It will happen because some bean counter gets the notice of the CFO with numbers that show rentals are undercutting Disney hotel profits by however many millions of dollars, and some of those can be recaptured if Disney becomes aggressive on "commercial use."

Now, end next week, next year - nope. Doubt that. If it happens though, you can bet your back end that we will get told its because "the membership asked for it" but if that were the reason, they would have changed the POS way back in the early 2000 when the membership started asking for it and had it apply to all subsequent resorts.
I don't think DVC rentals are undercutting Disney hotels. All Disney has to is offer a discount and people will go through Disney, and not renting due to being able to cancel the reservation, make changes and payments. It takes the risk out of renting DVC points.
 
I don't think DVC rentals are undercutting Disney hotels. All Disney has to is offer a discount and people will go through Disney, and not renting due to being able to cancel the reservation, make changes and payments. It takes the risk out of renting DVC points.

Of course they are. That's what undercutting means. People can get their rentals for less than going through CRO. IF Disney can clamp down on rentals (which maybe they can't), then they don't need to offer discounts to recapture those rooms - more money for Disney.
 














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