DVC Point Charts for 2011 - Post chart release discussion begins on Pg 14

[tjkraz]

And I'm really bummed. My April trip went from 137 points for a MKV Sudio at BLT to 175 points. That means I either have to change my trip date from the last week in April to the first week in May... or change to a LV. (which the hubby wanted anyway) It's not that I don't have enough points... it's the principle of the thing.
Nancy

If the points went up that much, chances are you jumped a season as well. The week before and week after Easter are always Premier season. Those dates obviously change from year-to-year.

It sounds like your dates were in Magic Season in 2010 and Premier Season for 2011. That was going to happen regardless of whether the points reallocated or not. To see how the reallocation came into play you're best to compare the same season in each year.

 

[Muushka]

I'm sure it will lead to some add-ons. But I'm still not convinced that DVC stands to see any net gain from the reallocations.

DVC is no longer the great value it once was for weekday stays. Therefore I have every reason to believe they will consistently lose sales from people who would have become customers (members) if they were still selling the >2009 charts.

Every single person who "loses" under these changes is a testament to the fact that DVC economics are no longer what they were two years ago. That will undeniably have an impact on sales...not just down the road but in the here-and-now.

That said, it's difficult to even bring sales into the equation when the reallocation was so obviously needed. DVC has sold points in hundreds of villas on the presumption of 7-day per week occupancy. When most of those villas are only being filled 5 days per week, they really do have an obligation to correct the problem.

If there were some question of whether the system needed to be changed or not, I'd happily debate DVC's ulterior motives. But in this case there's zero doubt that the weekday/weekend costs were out of balance. Whether they stand to gain or lose sales is truly a moot point.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic toward folks who are hurt by the changes, but leaving the system as unbalanced and...broken...as it has been would have been far more irresponsible than implementing these changes.

Great post. (not to be confused with the sarcasm that is flying about these threads.)
And I agree with you. As adversely as I am affected, if they needed to be balanced, they needed to be balanced.

I just feel so bad that the money I spent for DVC is not going to give me what I expected.
The other option that is not mentioned is sell the darn thing.
I figure one more year I will have my husband convinced.

 

[Petraman]

I'm sure it will lead to some add-ons. But I'm still not convinced that DVC stands to see any net gain from the reallocations.

DVC is no longer the great value it once was for weekday stays. Therefore I have every reason to believe they will consistently lose sales from people who would have become customers (members) if they were still selling the >2009 charts.

Every single person who "loses" under these changes is a testament to the fact that DVC economics are no longer what they were two years ago. That will undeniably have an impact on sales...not just down the road but in the here-and-now.
Well said. We are exactly in that boat. We bought into DVC, when weren't sure if we could afford it, but based on our normal 5-6 night stays it made sense. Got just enough points to do what we usually do (were assured that no changes would change that). Now do we buy more? Can we afford it? Will they just keep doing this until DVC costs more to travelers like than just paying cash?

That said, it's difficult to even bring sales into the equation when the reallocation was so obviously needed. DVC has sold points in hundreds of villas on the presumption of 7-day per week occupancy. When most of those villas are only being filled 5 days per week, they really do have an obligation to correct the problem.

Interesting... so if that is the case that most are empty then it would seem that most of the people who bought are wanting to do short trips and are being hurt by these changes. Not complaining, just an observation

If there were some question of whether the system needed to be changed or not, I'd happily debate DVC's ulterior motives. But in this case there's zero doubt that the weekday/weekend costs were out of balance. Whether they stand to gain or lose sales is truly a moot point.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic toward folks who are hurt by the changes, but leaving the system as unbalanced and...broken...as it has been would have been far more irresponsible than implementing these changes.
I, for one, do appreciate your straight talk and impartiality.

One thing I would love to find info on though that is thrown around all the time, but never any actual data. Is there a place to go see any data that shows this drastic difference of rooms filled on weekends vs weekdays? Is the difference higher in DVC villas than just Disney hotels resorts? I do hear this given as the reason by many including disney talking heads, just never saw any actual info



I do appreciate open discussion

 

[quirty30]

The new point allotment will not affect you at all if you have this travel pattern. The changes affect people who have to (or choose to) travel weekdays and not weekends. The weekend points all dropped and weekday points raised.

So if you travel less than 7 days and always "long weekends" like you described, then you will benefit

If you travel 7 day trips (which of course include the weekend) you will pretty much break even.

If you travel less than 7 and no weekend OR if you travel 8-13 days with only one weekend you will pay more everytime.

IN a nutshell, that is the thread so far...

People like you saying woohoo!!

People like me saying "this stinks 2 years in a row!"

Thanks for giving me the "condensed" version of the thread.

 

[Chuck S]

One thing I would love to find info on though that is thrown around all the time, but never any actual data. Is there a place to go see any data that shows this drastic difference of rooms filled on weekends vs weekdays? Is the difference higher in DVC villas than just Disney hotels resorts?



I do appreciate

Likely no hard data is available to members or the general public, although if you personally went to the DVC office in Celebration they may have some data there you could look over.

However, if you have ever stayed at a DVC resort over the weekend, you would have plenty of subjective evidence. The parking lots empty out on Fridays and the front desk is swamped with new arrivals on Sunday. Also the sheer number of posters in this thread who state they stay 5 weeknights and move on weekends would demonstrate that the system needs balancing.

Any point based timeshare is designed to operate at nearly 100% occupancy all the time, or else it throws the entire system out of balance. There are limited ways to balance occupancy. The most obvious is to reallcoate the pont charts. Another is to establish a minimum/maximum length of stay. Yet another possibility is to suspend banking and borrowing, All of these possibilities are mentioned in our POS. In fact, I would expect to see banking/borrowing eliminated for each resort when it is near to the end of its ownership contracts.

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

Likely no hard data is available to members or the general public, although if you personally went to the DVC office in Celebration they may have some data there you could look over.

However, if you have ever stayed at a DVC resort over the weekend, you would have plenty of subjective evidence. The parking lots empty out on Fridays and the front desk is swamped with new arrivals on Sunday. Also the sheer number of posters in this thread who state they stay 5 weeknights and move on weekends would demonstrate that the system needs balancing.

Any point based timeshare is designed to operate at nearly 100% occupancy all the time, or else it throws the entire system out of balance. There are limited ways to balance occupancy. The most obvious is to reallcoate the pont charts. Another is to establish a minimum/maximum length of stay. Yet another possibility is to suspend banking and borrowing, All of these possibilities are mentioned in our POS. In fact, I would expect to see banking/borrowing eliminated for each resort when it is near to the end of its ownership contracts.

Chuck:

How much notice do you think would be necessary for DVC to disallow banking/borrowing? I would think members would need more than a few days notice for this type of change.

 

[BroganMc]

I'm guessing if DVC eliminated banking/borrowing or implemented a mandatory minimum stay the resale market would be flooded with contracts so fast the ROFR monkey would have itself in a tailspin. Articles would be written everywhere quoting members alleging they were lied to in sales presentations and how Disney mistreats timeshare owners. And some lawyer would just love to take on a class action suit to challenge Disney's disreputable sales practices.

They can get away with tweaking the points here and there, but these changes would drastically change the way the membership is sold and used.

In short, it would be a PR nightmare and they know it.

 

[Chuck S]

Chuck:

How much notice do you think would be necessary for DVC to disallow banking/borrowing? I would think members would need more than a few days notice for this type of change.

Well, legally, probably not a lot of notice would be required. But I think to use this method to balance occupacy during a "normal" year would be the last thing they want to do. But I do expect for probably the last 3 years of the resort contracts...I can see how allowing borrowing/banking then would be a problem. Or maybe if a huge event, like the Olympics were to be in the Orlando area, I could see a limitation being put in place for that year.

 

[Petraman]

....if you have ever stayed at a DVC resort over the weekend, you would have plenty of subjective evidence. The parking lots empty out on Fridays and the front desk is swamped with new arrivals on Sunday. Also the sheer number of posters in this thread who state they stay 5 weeknights and move on weekends would demonstrate that the system needs balancing.

Well I guess that is kind of my point, the evidence is subjective. Empty cars may simply mean people who drive need to leave to get home where people who fly aren't as limited. And the parks are clearly fuller on Saturdays, and restaurants are even tougher to get into, so subjectively we could say more people are in the disney resorts.

I am not saying this is at all accurate, just pointing out that subjective data can be deceptive and manipulated.

Hey Chuck, you are always so helpful and it is appreciated.

I see you have owned dvc since 1992, is that correct. So when you first owned were the days more balanced and then as years went by, they charged more for weekends? Is this a swing back to a balanced plan they had before?

 

[Chuck S]

I'm guessing if DVC eliminated banking/borrowing or implemented a mandatory minimum stay the resale market would be flooded with contracts so fast the ROFR monkey would have itself in a tailspin. Articles would be written everywhere quoting members alleging they were lied to in sales presentations and how Disney mistreats timeshare owners. And some lawyer would just love to take on a class action suit to challenge Disney's disreputable sales practices.

They can get away with tweaking the points here and there, but these changes would drastically change the way the membership is sold and used.

In short, it would be a PR nightmare and they know it.

Perhaps, but since those options are in writing, in our POS, and we agreed to those possibilites in writing, I doubt it would be much of a legal challenge.

Just as the Holiday Prefernce List is still an option they could reactivate if they wanted to do so. That lottery eliminates home resort priority completely for room reservations December 23rd to December 31st.

 

[Chuck S]

Well I guess that is kind of my point, the evidence is subjective. Empty cars may simply mean people who drive need to leave to get home where people who fly aren't as limited. And the parks are clearly fuller on Saturdays, and restaurants are even tougher to get into, so subjectively we could say more people are in the disney resorts.

I am not saying this is at all accurate, just pointing out that subjective data can be deceptive and manipulated.

Hey Chuck, you are always so helpful and it is appreciated.

I see you have owned dvc since 1992, is that correct. So when you first owned were the days more balanced and then as years went by, they charged more for weekends? Is this a swing back to a balanced plan they had before?

Actually, the weeknights were much lower than the weekends in the original (pre-1996) point charts.

Here is the original 1991 chart:

 

[drusba]

That said, it's difficult to even bring sales into the equation when the reallocation was so obviously needed. DVC has sold points in hundreds of villas on the presumption of 7-day per week occupancy. When most of those villas are only being filled 5 days per week, they really do have an obligation to correct the problem.

If there were some question of whether the system needed to be changed or not, I'd happily debate DVC's ulterior motives. But in this case there's zero doubt that the weekday/weekend costs were out of balance. Whether they stand to gain or lose sales is truly a moot point.

This raises an interesting point. When DVC started it had the much higher weekend points versus weekday. But it also had another thing: it required purchasers to acquire a minimum of 240 or 270 points (I cannot remember which), and at OKW that was enough for a week almost all of the year in a 1BR for part the year in a 2BR. In other words, its orginal system was in fact based on the presumption of at least 7 night trips, thus minimizing the problem of weekend vacancy. To generate sales, Disney then started lowering the minimum purchase, which is now 160, but it has even been lower. Do we have a cause and effect here? By lowering the minimum to the 150 to 160 range, Disney was encouraging purchasers to buy and then stay only Sun-Thurs. In other words, Disney created the weekend vacancy problem by not sticking to its orginal model and instead letting greed get the best of it and using as a sales ploy the the ability to stay 5 nights a week with the lower point purchase, and now of course it is correcting the problem it created by punishing all those it enticed with lower minimums.

 

[bookwormde]

Dismedvc

Thank for pointing out the transcribing error I have corrected 1880681 to 1080681 all other numbers remain the same.

If BWV was not fully declared when the room classes were changes and the theoretical methodology I have offered was used and if it had been identified then it would be the same situation. Just because you get away with something once does not mean it is proper.

If a time-share company were to actually do this it brings up moral, civil and criminal issues (if I were such a timeshare company I would certainly want to review it before it became a nightmare).

bookwormde

 

[CarolMN]

One thing I would love to find info on though that is thrown around all the time, but never any actual data. Is there a place to go see any data that shows this drastic difference of rooms filled on weekends vs weekdays? Is the difference higher in DVC villas than just Disney hotels resorts? I do hear this given as the reason by many including disney talking heads, just never saw any actual info



I do appreciate open discussion

More subjective/observational eveidence:

Consider the availability of weekend nights for cash. MS offers members the opportunity to pay cash for nights that it does not expect to be reserved for points. In fact, there is often a 25% discount off rack rates for those nights. (The discount is not always available, but based on reports here, it's offered more often than not). These cash nights come from member owned inventory. Since you can often book cash nights as early as 11 months out, MS must be very confident of having "leftover" points rooms for Friday and Saturday nights. This supports the contention that the demand for weekend nights is much lower than that for weekdays.

There have been several reports that CMs have said that the most popular day for check ins is Sunday, but the most popular days for check out are Friday and Saturday. Again, this supports the contention that the demand for weekend nights is much lower than that for weekdays.

 

[Caren]

This raises an interesting point. When DVC started it had the much higher weekend points versus weekday. But it also had another thing: it required purchasers to acquire a minimum of 240 or 270 points (I cannot remember which), and at OKW that was enough for a week almost all of the year in a 1BR for part the year in a 2BR. In other words, its orginal system was in fact based on the presumption of at least 7 night trips, thus minimizing the problem of weekend vacancy. To generate sales, Disney then started lowering the minimum purchase, which is now 160, but it has even been lower. Do we have a cause and effect here? By lowering the minimum to the 150 to 160 range, Disney was encouraging purchasers to buy and then stay only Sun-Thurs. In other words, Disney created the weekend vacancy problem by not sticking to its orginal model and instead letting greed get the best of it and using as a sales ploy the the ability to stay 5 nights a week with the lower point purchase, and now of course it is correcting the problem it created by punishing all those it enticed with lower minimums.

So what's been happening is that--with Disney's blessing--weekend travelers have been subsidizing weekday travelers. I am sorry for those who bought some minimum number of points and now don't find their weekday trips quite so much of a bargain, but am glad I don't have to subsidize their cheap stays.

 

[NewDCLGuy]

They could tweak the seasons a bit. I'd put that at 50/50 in the next couple of years. It seems like this reallocation did re-value each season differently so that may have been sufficient for the time being.

Overall I don't see a lot of areas where they could make further adjustments to the charts.

Having early December in Adventure Season creates a "demand imbalance" at least as great as the weekend/weekday one. Disney has gone through 2 serious point rebalancings and didn't tough that. I wonder why?

 

[NewDCLGuy]

More subjective/observational eveidence:

This is just my anecdotal evidence... We take frequent long weekends at DVC. There have been at least a dozen times I've called about availability and been told that Monday (or Thursday) is sold out, but Friday/Saturday are available. I've never once been told the opposite (weeknight free but weekend sold out.)

 

[needtogomore]

It seems right now the people who are NOT dvc owners and just buy their visits with cash are far more respected and wanted than those who bought in.... Just My Opinion

not opinion FACT, on the UK disney site they are offering 42% off and free dining for DVC resorts, they are using DVC for there own profit as far as I can see

 

[MiaSRN62]

This is just my anecdotal evidence... We take frequent long weekends at DVC. There have been at least a dozen times I've called about availability and been told that Monday (or Thursday) is sold out, but Friday/Saturday are available. I've never once been told the opposite (weeknight free but weekend sold out.)

Just for the record....I have.....at BCV....VWL...BWV....several times over 10 years of Membership........

Maria

 

[maminnie]

Let's all face it....we bought and should have all known and understood that things could change. That doesn't make things easier for those that are negatively effected by yet again another point reallocation. With all the smaller add on contracts, there must be many effected. I know I am.

My main concern is that point amounts have changed DRASTICALLY and do not even resemble when I bought:

One Bedroom 2009-30/60, 2010-34/50 and 2011-37/42
Two Bedroom 2009-40/75, 2010-44/65, and 2011-48/55

Whether we travelled during the week or on the weekend, the bottom line is DVC is making extreme changes. What is next....week stay requirements, no banking/borrowing, no staying in other resorts. We could go on and on with this one.

Not sure what to do with my contracts at this point.