DVC plans to target commercial renters

[lowlight]

No, they wrote in another thread that they were willing to hurt the entire membership to get what they wanted and didn’t care about the consequences.

That is who you are aligned with.

I don’t recall those words coming out of my mouth, but if you can copy and paste it would help remind me. You have the sentiment half right. I remember saying that I would gladly burn the whole reservation system to the ground to stop walking and renting, and I stick by that. I don’t want that to happen, but if that was the only choice versus YOU being able to walk and rent like you do now... It would help the majority of the people who have no idea walking and mass renting are happening.

The third-party rental company is not violating the POS;

The only point of contention I have with this is when Directv and Dish went after third party smart card makers both criminally and civilly. They destroyed many people’s lives over it and had the blessing of the DOJ in both the US and Canada.

 

[nalababybear]

The problem is they never specified an amount or ratio of points you can or cannot rent to be considered commercial. They simply said that you can rent your points out if you want or need to. Where do they draw the line?

Use 900 points rent 100?
Use 800 points rent 200?
Use 700 points rent 300?
Use 600 points rent 400?
Use 500 points rent 500?
Use 400 points rent 600?

His position is rent zero as this anything above zero is commercial. Legally, that's not wrong.

Disney clearly hasn't seen it that way and has allowed for unrestricted renting to date.

How much will Disney redraw the lines that they have signaled they are doing is the great unknown. Regardless of what they do it won't make some folk happy and they would have to decide how to react to Disney's decision, just.oike anything else that Disney does and we adjust.

The challenge of anything in management, the more one defines something, the more one had to police to enforce, and that takes effort and time and costs for all it's stakeholders.

 

[AstroBlasters]

@AstroBlasters uses his membership they way it's intended to be used. Rents periodically not solely to make a profit but to not just let points he wont be using go to waste. He is not booking large amounts of rooms and spec renting them. I think where the lines have become blurred is when people want to ban renting completely or make booking so hard that DVC becomes undesirable, which isn't what he wants to happen. Sorry @AstroBlasters if I am not interpreting how you use your membership correctly.

1) I aspire to use 100% of my points over a 3 year bank/borrow period.

2) When I have rented out points, it was always as listing points as available and then fulfilling requests…. Usually about 8-9 months out from the desired rental date.

3) After 32% federal tax, 10% state tax, and dues…. almost no one would consider my rentals as for profit.

4) I think back to the grilling that I got from my wife before the purchase and I don’t want any future owner to have to answer “no” to any of the questions that required a “yes” to where she felt comfortable putting a large amount of capital down for a multi decade timeshare.

5) It is not “wrong” to rent out points or to walk a reservation.

6) I will walk a reservation for personal use, even if there is no need to from a room category perspective, because I can be forgetful and it reduces my stress to know that we have the rooms booked for our limited travel windows.

As I have stated previously, I am for flexibility and simplicity. Limit the large commercial renters acting as solely as a business, put in some speed bumps to limit the bots, try to reduce spec renting, and leave everyone else alone.

 

[Sandisw]

I don’t recall those words coming out of my mouth, but if you can copy and paste it would help remind me. You have the sentiment half right. I remember saying that I would gladly burn the whole reservation system to the ground to stop walking and renting, and I stick by that. I don’t want that to happen, but if that was the only choice versus YOU being able to walk and rent like you do now... It would help the majority of the people who have no idea walking and mass renting are happening.



The only point of contention I have with this is when Directv and Dish went after third party smart card makers both criminally and civilly. They destroyed many people’s lives over it and had the blessing of the DOJ in both the US and Canada.

Not familiar with that case but I thought that the people they sued were making a product that was stealing the services. If so, that sounds like a different situation.

The broker is not actually doing anything with DVC...they don't access the owners account...the owner does all the work. The only way DVC would even know if a broker was involved is if the owner told them they used one.

I don't know if you were an owner back when DVC changed the associates rule to a limit of 4....that was in response to David's being put on owners accounts so they could directly make reservations...

But, to be honest, I think that if DVC could put pressure on the brokers to curb that, it would have happened by now.

 

[ShaneDJ]

I own at OKW, for nearly 30 years. I never ever have a problem booking at my home resort at 11 months. However I used to be able to book across WDW at 7 without much issue. Now, not so much.

Is this a joke?

Your problem with renting is that you expect that your OKW points should be able to let you book at any other non-OKW property at DVC...and always get the room types you want?

7-months points are non-priority.

C'mon now.

With Disney selling many more DVC points over the years, then availability for 7-month rooms will be more limited. You should know that.

You also wrote that you knew that 7-month availability is part of the DVC plan. Which means that you also know that 11-months gets you priority at your home resort.

If you want to stay at a preferred DVC resort, buy where you want to stay.

Don't feel entitled that your "OKW" points should be able to get you into any resort at 7-months.

 

[Tatebeck]

His position is rent zero as this anything above zero is commercial. Legally, that's not wrong.

Disney clearly hasn't seen it that way and has allowed for unrestricted renting to date.

How much will Disney redraw the lines that they have signaled they are doing is the great unknown. Regardless of what they do it won't make some folk happy and they would have to decide how to react to Disney's decision, just.oike anything else that Disney does and we adjust.

The challenge of anything in management, the more one defines something, the more one had to police to enforce, and that takes effort and time and costs for all it's stakeholders.

Strongly disagree with the bolded part.
I believe that legally it is very incorrect.

Commercial: making or intended to make a profit.
Profit: a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.

If you buy a 1000 pack of something and then sell 1 of that item and the rest is used up, you could be considered to have technically made 0 profit unless you sell that singular item for more than the entire cost of the 1000 you purchased. You have simply lowered the cost of the product you bought by a small amount.

Which is why I said earlier in the thread that it would be very unlikely that Disney could strongly consider anything as commercial use unless the member is renting probably well over 50% of their points (at approximately double the dues or $20 ish) or a slightly smaller number (maybe 1/3 or so) if they are maximizing spec rental potential at around 3x ($30 ish) or more of the cost of dues on a regular basis. At that point they could/would be making more than the entire annualized cost of their contract(s), (both the annualized portion of their upfront cost plus their yearly cost of dues), and generating actual "profit"

Just like spending $10,000 per year on something that generates $10,000 back and "pays for itself", is a 0 net profit.

So profit is required to make it commercial. Profit is the money brought in (-) your costs. If the total you bring in is generally less than your total cost, good luck getting that defined as commercial use. And because they specifically said that you can rent out all of your points during a year that you won't use them, they are in fact okay with sometimes even bringing in more than your costs, or making an occasional profit, as long as it is not too often.

 

[Chuck S]

I own at OKW, for nearly 30 years. I never ever have a problem booking at my home resort at 11 months. However I used to be able to book across WDW at 7 without much issue. Now, not so much.

Lucky for me I can hop on over to the boards sponsor and scoop up an already booked room!

I would attribute a lot of your change in difficulty booking now vesus in past years to an increase in the number of small point contracts and dedicated weeks, especially at the newer resorts. Since you own at OKW, you would not be booking the other resorts at the 11month window, which is when walking would have the most impact, and if there are no reservation available for you at 7 months at your non-home resorts, it means those that DO own there are booking it up during the priority window, whether it is for renting, or their personal stays.

I had no issues wnen I booked a one bedroom savannah view a couple years ago at Kidani, and no issue booking a studio at Poly, also a few years ago. But I booked poly because I could NOT get a BLT park view studio at 7 months, even back then, which it what I really wanted for that trip.

I have to say, I doubt renting is the reason for your issues booking at a non-home resort.

And when I rented points, maybe 3 years ago now? I was shocked there was a value studio at AKV available for the one night one of my renters wanted it, as it was within about 4 months of their travel dates. You just never know when they'll pop up.

 

[Sandisw]

His position is rent zero as this anything above zero is commercial. Legally, that's not wrong.

Disney clearly hasn't seen it that way and has allowed for unrestricted renting to date.

How much will Disney redraw the lines that they have signaled they are doing is the great unknown. Regardless of what they do it won't make some folk happy and they would have to decide how to react to Disney's decision, just.oike anything else that Disney does and we adjust.

The challenge of anything in management, the more one defines something, the more one had to police to enforce, and that takes effort and time and costs for all it's stakeholders.

I just posted the language specifically from the declaration of VGF. Reading that it is pretty clear to me that the intent of the clause is about turning your membership into a commerical enterprise (which is defined as a business).....especially since that is listed as the first in what the board could use to define commercial purpose.

The other part I always go back to is that when DVC discusses renting in the documents, they never use the words "commericial renting" which I do see used here....they only refer to it being allowed to rent.

**A commercial enterprise is a for-profit business that is conducted lawfully and on an ongoing basis. It can be a corporation, partnership, sole proprietorship, joint venture, holding company, business trust, or other entity. Commercial enterprises can be privately or publicly owned

 

[Sandisw]

I would attribute a lot of your change in difficulty booking now vesus in past years to an increase in the number of small point contracts and dedicated weeks, especially at the newer resorts. Since you own at OKW, you would not be booking the other resorts at the 11month window, which is when walking would have the most impact, and if there are now reservation available for you at 7 months at your non-home resoprts, it means those that DO own there are booking it up durunbg the priority window,whether it is for renting, of their personal stays.

I had no issues wnen I booked a one bedroom savannah view a couple years ago at Kidani, and no issue booking a studio at Poly, also a few years ago. But I booked poly because I could NOT get a BLT park view studio at 7 months, even back then, which it what I really wanted for that trip.

I have to say, I doubt renting is the reason for your issues booking at a non-home resort.

And when I rented points, maybe 3 years ago now? I was shocked there was a value studio at AKV available for the one night one of my renters wanted it, as it was within about 4 months of their travel dates. You just never know when they'll pop up.

To add, there are a lot more owners who have purchased additional points as sleep around points at the less desirable resorts for the sole purpose of trading them to the near park resorts...which I think has put more pressure on 7 month trading for the popular resorts.

Very rarely are you going to have trouble trading at 7 months into SSR or OKW (non HH)....

 

[lowlight]

Not familiar with that case but were those smart card makers allowing people to access their content directly? If so, that sounds like a different case because the broker is not actually doing anything with DVC...they don't access the owners account...the owner does all the work.

Yeah the more I think about it, it’s copyright law so that is probably why it ended up being different.

 

[Sandisw]

Strongly disagree with the bolded part.
I believe that legally it is very incorrect.

Commercial: making or intended to make a profit.
Profit: a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.

If you buy a 1000 pack of something and then sell 1 of that item and the rest is used up, you could be considered to have technically made 0 profit unless you sell that singular item for more than the entire cost of the 1000 you purchased. You have simply lowered the cost of the product you bought by a small amount.

Which is why I said earlier in the thread that it would be very unlikely that Disney could strongly consider anything as commercial use unless the member is renting probably well over 50% of their points (at approximately double the dues or $20 ish) or a slightly smaller number (maybe 1/3 or so) if they are maximizing spec rental potential at around 3x ($30 ish) or more of the cost of dues on a regular basis. At that point they could/would be making more than the entire annualized cost of their contract(s), (both the annualized portion of their upfront cost plus their yearly cost of dues), and generating actual "profit"

Just like spending $10,000 per year on something that generates $10,000 back and "pays for itself", is a 0 net profit.

So profit is required to make it commercial. Profit is the money brought in (-) your costs. If the profit you bring in is generally less than your total cost, good luck getting that defined as commercial use. And because they specifically said that you can rent out all of your points during a year that you won't use them, they are in fact okay with sometimes even bringing in more than your costs, or making an occasional profit, as long as it is not too often.

I think that part of why these discussions are so hard is because the terms are being used, including by me sometimes, in ways that don't actually match the clause of the contract and how they use it in the context of DVC.

It talks about the board determing commercial purpsose to be a pattern of rental activity, etc. that the board can reasonably determine is a commerical enterprise or practice.

All that should matter is what does the contract say, what is the context of it, and what does that mean for owners in interpreting what activity by an owner results in being labled a "commercial enterprise/practice"...it never really mentions profit...although, since the definition of commericial enterprise is a "for profit" business, they could find a way to look at that is well...

Maybe DVC decides that an owner with 500 points who rents 250 every year is not really making a profit on their membership if all the income does is pay the dues for the 500?

That is why I can't see them even entertaining rules that prohibt one from using a broker because one rental is one rental, regardless of where the renter was found....and I don't think anyone would suggest that one rental a year, even if it is every year, is a pattern of activity that could even be seen as a commerical enterprise.

I am not saying that DVC can't decide to use a very narrow definition of what makes something a commerical enterprise...they could...they could tell an owner who has been renting 60% of their points for 3 or more years that they feel its a business and tell them to stop.....and I bet there are owners who would agree with that....

 

[Nabas]

I think that part of why these discussions are so hard is because the terms are being used, including by me sometimes, in ways that don't actually match the clause of the contract and how they use it in the context of DVC.

As a refresher for those who might not have read all posts, the POS uses the term "commercial purposes", which Disney states includes "commercial enterprise or practice".

Recalling what's in the typical POS:

Personal Use. Except for Units owned by DVD, which may be utilized as provided in this Declaration, each of the Vacation Homes shall be occupied only as vacation accommodations. Use of the accommodations and recreational facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the personal use of Owners, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit. Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" shall include a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.​

Quoting from online legal sources:

The term “used for commercial purposes” means the carriage of persons or property for any fare, fee, rate, charge or other consideration, or directly or indirectly in connection with any business, or other undertaking intended for profit.​

​

The term “commercial enterprise” includes any entity formed for the purpose of doing for-profit business.​

​

commercial practices means any act, omission, course of conduct or representation, commercial communication including advertising and marketing, by a trader, directly connected with the promotion, sale or supply of a product to consumers;​

 

[Tatebeck]

As a refresher for those who might not have read all posts, the POS uses the term "commercial purposes", which Disney states includes "commercial enterprise or practice".

Recalling what's in the typical POS:

Personal Use. Except for Units owned by DVD, which may be utilized as provided in this Declaration, each of the Vacation Homes shall be occupied only as vacation accommodations. Use of the accommodations and recreational facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the personal use of Owners, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit. Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" shall include a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.​

Quoting from online legal sources:

The term “used for commercial purposes” means the carriage of persons or property for any fare, fee, rate, charge or other consideration, or directly or indirectly in connection with any business, or other undertaking intended for profit.​

​

The term “commercial enterprise” includes any entity formed for the purpose of doing for-profit business.​

​

commercial practices means any act, omission, course of conduct or representation, commercial communication including advertising and marketing, by a trader, directly connected with the promotion, sale or supply of a product to consumers;​

Exactly, Disney does not say anything about "profit" in their rules, because it is baked into the definitions of the words that they do use, like "commercial enterprise" and "commercial purposes"

 

[Sandisw]

As a refresher for those who might not have read all posts, the POS uses the term "commercial purposes", which Disney states includes "commercial enterprise or practice".

Recalling what's in the typical POS:

Personal Use. Except for Units owned by DVD, which may be utilized as provided in this Declaration, each of the Vacation Homes shall be occupied only as vacation accommodations. Use of the accommodations and recreational facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the personal use of Owners, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit. Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" shall include a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.​

Quoting from online legal sources:

The term “used for commercial purposes” means the carriage of persons or property for any fare, fee, rate, charge or other consideration, or directly or indirectly in connection with any business, or other undertaking intended for profit.​

​

The term “commercial enterprise” includes any entity formed for the purpose of doing for-profit business.​

​

commercial practices means any act, omission, course of conduct or representation, commercial communication including advertising and marketing, by a trader, directly connected with the promotion, sale or supply of a product to consumers;​

I posted it earlier from the declaration document in VGF POS.

IMO, I do think that when you look at the definition of “commercial purpose” it explains what it shall include which is the “pattern of rental activity” that….be considered a commercial enterprise or practice”.

And for me, as an owner, it’s the use of the words pattern of rental activity and commercial enterprise that are critical to making sure that whatever DVC decides to do to define it…which is their right…includes those elements as part of it because it states it should.

So, DVC is for personal use…which leasees and exchangers are included in that… but not for use as a commercial enterprise or practice.

And, if you look at the new and updated language of the CFW POS, it goes even further with specific examples…so it certainly seems obvious to me they knew that language in the contract needed to be stronger if they want to be able to limit renting outside of just as a commercial enterprise.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Exactly, Disney does not say anything about "profit" in their rules, because it is baked into the definitions of the words that they do use, like "commercial enterprise" and "commercial purposes"

Right, and it is very difficult for any owner to ever make a true “profit” after all of their costs and taxes.

 

[xdan0920]

Right, and it is very difficult for any owner to ever make a true “profit” after all of their costs and taxes.

Don’t have to succeed at making a profit. Only have to try.

 

[tx911]

Exactly, Disney does not say anything about "profit" in their rules, because it is baked into the definitions of the words that they do use, like "commercial enterprise" and "commercial purposes"

I have seen definitions of "commercial enterprise" that do not include a reference to profit, but simply reference engaging in "commerce" i.e. the buying and selling of goods. If Red Lobster fails to make a profit, is it not still a commercial enterprise?

ETA: I would also argue that if 2 entities engage in trade and "break even", they have still engaged in commerce.

 

[xdan0920]

Is this a joke?

No. It sure isn’t. Like I said, not to worry though. There is plenty of availability at DVC rental store!

 

[tx911]

No. It sure isn’t. Like I said, not to worry though. There is plenty of availability at DVC rental store!

You mentioned renting your points and then buying a confirmed reservation or renting points from another resort.

I wonder if swapping reservations is allowed by DVC? Like a VGF owner books a reservation for a Poly owner, and vice versa, like a trade. I'm assuming not allowed or DVC rental store would offer it.

 

[Tatebeck]

Don’t have to succeed at making a profit. Only have to try.

And then it is back to intent, which is very hard to police. Just like people making reservations for the sole purpose of walking vs actually changing the desired dates of their trip for some reason when they go into modify. It's impossible to know what that member renting their points out is thinking and what their motivations are until their actions hit certain concrete markers, like actual profit.

I have seen definitions of "commercial enterprise" that do not include a reference to profit, but simply reference engaging in "commerce" i.e. the buying and selling of goods. If Red Lobster fails to make a profit, is it not still a commercial enterprise?

If they failed enough years in a row? Yes, they would cease to be a commercial enterprise (and may soon cease to be it seems like it!)

But seriously it also comes down to the intent to profit as well, as mentioned in the definitions above. But intent is always going to be harder to judge than concrete profits. But in essence, you have to at least try to make a profit to be considered a commercial enterprise. Red Lobster is trying to, even if they may not run a profit every year. Most members who rent their points, I would venture to guess, are not seeking actual profit from their memberships (even if they may rent out some of their points most years)