DVC MS told me "it is illegal to rent your points"

[Plutofan]

As far as I know only commercial renting is prohibited. I believe Disney allows up to 19 reservations during the year.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

quite possibly, but I received the same answer from two different sources (representing DVC), same as others have reported. Didn't stop me from being an illegal though, i just go with the program & 'rented' my points anyway, just didn't divulge when i make the ressie that funds were exchanged.

I need to finish packing for my trip tomorrowbut if i have time will call MS again just for giggles to see what i'm told re renting.

just called MS and was told I could make a reservation for other people but could not rent or receive compensation for the reservation, Also that i would need the names, etc. at the time of booking. I did ask if i would responsible for any damages that might happen (always wondered) and was told, no the 'guests' need to put down a CC at the time of booking and that would cover any potential room charges/damages

What this thread is talking about is that it is incorrect information to be told that a general member cannot rent out a reservation - ie, rent points for compensation. You are perpetuating this myth and a read of the POS will show it is incorrect. I have read it and it is very specific to this point although a little more generic about what constitutes commercial renting but just receiving payment is not what places it under commercial. It sounds like your guide and the person you spoke to at MS also need to learn what can and cannot be done legally, under the POS. Who knows - you may have reached the same CM as the OP.

Yes an owner can collect cash and book a reservation for a person they have no other connection to. Members actually are instructed to let MS know that we have rented so the renter will not receive the same privileges as an owner or guest of the owner. That is the part about renting that is usually overlooked.

What gets people confused is that members are not allowed per the POS to transfer points to another member and receive compensation. It's done though. MS may be making that mistake but they should be educated in the difference.

keishashadow - did you purchase with a CM discount? Apparently that program had a restriction against renting.

 

[TCups4Me]

It's actually expressly allowed in the POS documentation. There is a ban on "commercial renting" which has a current threshold of 20 rentals per year or running a website.

If there is a ban on commercial renting then how do people on the Rent/Trade boards do it for a business? When I first started researching renting a few years ago, I thought that the rent/trade boards were for DIS members to rent or transfer their points on an individual basis. But it has become very obvious that there are folks on there who do this for a business and they are clearly making more than 20 transactions. How do they do this without being a broker like DAVID'S?

I apologize for this question being a little off track from the original discussion...

 

[lisaviolet]

What is all this talk about not changing the names once booked or the words - having them at time of booking?

So all of a sudden members can't rent a reservation that already exists? I doubt that legally. Forget renting let's look at it another way with this specific comment. As a member I can't decide I'm not going on a trip -for whatever personal reason - that I've planned and booked and send friends or family down instead? Sighing.

Of course this is what a reservation for rent is on this board. Many have - including myself - bought/taken a confirmed reservation from another member. Mine obviously had to have his name taken off and add mine. So about MS and their words.

 

[Deb & Bill]

I have a copy of the POS dated 2/2002 (I think this one was for BCV). On Page 52 it says:

Leasing and Rental Restrictions: All leasing and rental agreements relating to the use, occupancy and possession of any Vacation Home during a reserved use period must be in writing and must set forth an acknowledgement and consent on the part of teh lessee-sublessee-tenant to use, occupy and possess such Vacation Home in conformance and compliance with the provisions of the Declaration, as well as the Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, the Condominium Rules and Regulations of the Disney Vacation Club. If an Owner fails to secure a written lease or rental agreement, the Association has the right to require the lessee-sublessee-tenant, prior to the lessee-sublessee-tenant's use, occupancy or possession of any Vacation Home, to execute an acknowledgement to use and occupy the rental or leased Vacation Home in conformance with the Condominium Documents. ANY LEASE OR RENTAL AGREEMENT IS DEEMED TO CONTAIN A PROVISION REQUIRING THAT ANY SUMS DUE TO THE ASSOCIATION AS ASSESSMENTS MUST BE DEDUCTED FROM THE GROSS RENTALS AND PAID DIRECTLY TO THE ASSOCIATION.

Then on Page 97 it says:

Use of the accomodations, commonly used facilities, and recreational facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the personal use of the Owers or Cotenants, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporationsand other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit. ... "Commercial purpose" shall include a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

So renting is not prohibited unless DVC concludes it consists of a commercial purpose.

 

[Dean]

Dean -i'm not inferring that a CM gave out incorrect info, quite the opposite. It's my position that members aren't 'legally' permitted to rent their points. The employees are responding to a specific question.

Can i rent my points? The answer is no.

Can we make a reservation for another person, yes as long as we don't reference receiving financial remittance. If a member uses the term "rent" it implies exchange of cash. btw, I'm not being pollyannish, i've rented a few times, moreso just let family use my points and don't care what other members decide to do with their DVC interests.

IMO there is a distinct difference between the two and therein is the reason DVC's reservation CMs respond as they do to the OP. I firmly believe they go thru training and are restricted as to certain answers ala CRO reservationists. Not sure if the guides or those who man the phone lines are licensed real estate agents, but if they were they'd be bound by a whole other set of rules as to what they can and cannot say re timeshares.

IMO there is no difference other than we've artificially made one here. At the least it would be far more misleading to try to get this cute with answers and questions. As posted, it was a frank untruth. I get what you're saying and iMO, it's an unnecessary and inappropriate distinction.

I've asked both my "old" guide and MS and was told that renting is forbidden, although I may allow others to "use" my points.It's not an interpretation. When I questioned why, was told no funds could change hands.

Many here have been told the same thing over the years.

The only ones at DVC that will tell you that are the misinformed and those with an agenda separate from the legal documents. On top of that it is my opinion that DVC could not legally prevent renting and I doubt even their current stance would stand up in court.

If there is a ban on commercial renting then how do people on the Rent/Trade boards do it for a business? When I first started researching renting a few years ago, I thought that the rent/trade boards were for DIS members to rent or transfer their points on an individual basis. But it has become very obvious that there are folks on there who do this for a business and they are clearly making more than 20 transactions. How do they do this without being a broker like DAVID'S?

I apologize for this question being a little off track from the original discussion...

I suspect you're confusing your own definition of commercial renting with what applies to DVC's case, one associated with a dollar amount. There are also those on DIS that have an agenda to not allow renting at all and they'll try to use such a definition as well. Since the legal documents specific allow renting but prohibit commercial renting with definition to come later. They have somewhat defined it now as something at or over 20 rentals and/or running a website. There is no dollar amount associated, nor is it possible for DVC to use that criteria if they wanted to. While some lost souls would like to use any "profit" as the definition, that is clearly not a consideration as it applies to the legal possibility but is as it applies to taxes. DVC has also allowed David's rental situation as well as TSS, they are making their bed in this situation as it applies to legal remedies.

Transfers are another matter and the POS strictly prohibits any payment for transfers. Thus far DVC has failed to enforce that portion and if they cont to allow it, at some point it may become unenforceable as well if it hasn't already. Technically, ANY payment intended to compensate is a rental. So if you send your neighbor and they buy you dinner in return, that is a rental, at least technically.

Deb, it's the reasonable discretion that gets them. What you didn't quote were the several places where the POS specifically states that renting is allowed. At least you didn't do what some of the less informed do, take the clause aimed at ensuring that timeshares not sell with promises of resale value and rental profits as part of their sales program and try to relate that to this subject as others have tried to do in the past.

 

[PatMcDuck]

I thought we were not "allowed" to rent points, only to let people use our points. My understanding was that Disney did not want to know about $$ changing hands, but of course they were aware of it.

My feeling was that Disney did not want the headaches of refereeing if these "rental" transactions went bad for whatever reason.

I have had my points for over 10 years (BCV), so you can learn something new even after all this time. (I had OKW before that, 1995 for those). I have never rented, because we only have 200.

 

[bumbershoot]

(Do you folks really have nothing better to do then complain to DVC about this? Seriously?)

I think that if every error ALL of us make was reported by the "watchdogs" our lives would be much worse!

If I'm at work and I'm saying things that are completely not true, AND that go against the *legal* documentation we're all given, YES I want someone to correct me!

I don't get to go rogue (I love that others are using that to describe employees giving weird info) and give my opinion, and if I mis-heard or misunderstood something during training, I NEED to know the right way to say it, or the truth.

Dean -i'm not inferring that a CM gave out incorrect info, quite the opposite. It's my position that members aren't 'legally' permitted to rent their points. The employees are responding to a specific question.

Can i rent my points? The answer is no.

Can we make a reservation for another person, yes as long as we don't reference receiving financial remittance. If a member uses the term "rent" it implies exchange of cash. btw, I'm not being pollyannish, i've rented a few times, moreso just let family use my points and don't care what other members decide to do with their DVC interests.

IMO there is a distinct difference between the two and therein is the reason DVC's reservation CMs respond as they do to the OP. I firmly believe they go thru training and are restricted as to certain answers ala CRO reservationists. Not sure if the guides or those who man the phone lines are licensed real estate agents, but if they were they'd be bound by a whole other set of rules as to what they can and cannot say re timeshares.

If what you said is true, the conversation would go like this.

"Can I rent my points?"

"No, it's impossible." (and then they'd explain)



NOT it's *illegal*.




Page 56 (or page 13, it says both on the page) of my Multi-site Public Offering Statement (not the Bay Lake specific one) dated 9/2008:

"When a Club Member uses his or her Home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes on behalf of a non-Club Member, and the Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees to the non-Club Member for the reservation, the non-Club Member is eligible for all or some of the Club Member privileges and benefits that a Club Member would normally receive during his or her stay in the reserved Vacation Home. If the non-Club member is renting, it is the responsibility of the Member to notify Member Services when making the reservation. Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to non-Club Members who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members."

It is so completely obvious from that that renting is NOT illegal, since they have rules about what benefits renters can get.



Page 69 (and 7):

No rental assistance is being offered to you by....or any affiliate or subsidiary of TWDC. This means that if you wish to rent your Ownership Interest, you must rent your occupancy rights solely through your own efforts. As stated above, The TWDC Companies, including, without limitation, DVC, will be in competition with you for renters, and DVD will place its own inventory of Ownership Interests into a rental program of its own. All renters and exchangers must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy of Vacation Homes, and the renting Owners will be responsible for the acts or omissions of their renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Owners to use a reserved Vacation Home."

So they've made sure to make rules about renting...there aren't rules about illegal things, other than "that's illegal, you can't do it and you'll be in trouble if you do".



I was trying to look through my bigger book that's BLT specific, but I gotta pack.

 

[Sandisw]

I thought we were not "allowed" to rent points, only to let people use our points. My understanding was that Disney did not want to know about $$ changing hands, but of course they were aware of it.

My feeling was that Disney did not want the headaches of refereeing if these "rental" transactions went bad for whatever reason.

I have had my points for over 10 years (BCV), so you can learn something new even after all this time. (I had OKW before that, 1995 for those). I have never rented, because we only have 200.

What is specifically prohibited by the contract is to receive money for transferring points to another member.

In terms of transactions between DVC members or other guests, Disney will not get involved because it is all considered private transactions. That is why if a guest or renter of an owner leaves unpaid charges at Disney, DVC freezes the account. Not because they expect the DVC owner to pay the bill, but rather they put it on the member to get their own guest to settle things.

But, our POS specifically allows a member to rent a reservation to another person and receive compensation for it, regardless of what MS or guides are telling members.

As with everything, it is what is in the contract that will supersede all of that. The only piece that Disney says is a problem is to appear to be running a commercial rental business in which you are making lots of reservations in the names of other people and the number 20 has been thrown around.

I know that if it was me, and I was told this by MS, I would simply remind them that it is allowed per the terms of my contract, that what they are saying is wrong, and that they really should be more careful in giving out advice that it not accurate--and then, I would respond to the survey and let DVC know.

 

[keishashadow]

I'm on my way back from VGC woohoo . Now that I've seen the specific info from the contract I'm convinced! Thanks to those who brought over the verbiage.

 

[disneynutz]

The renting issue and more specifically Disney employees not understanding that personal renting is allowed is being discussed at Disney corporate. I was told that a training email was recently sent to all DVC Cast Members reaffirming Disney's policy.

If any DVC Member is told that renting is not allowed, they are asked to request a manager and/or send a email with the Cast Members name to dvcmembersatisfactionteam@disneyvacationclub.com

Bill

 

[BeccaG]

The renting issue and more specifically Disney employees not understanding that personal renting is allowed is being discussed at Disney corporate. I was told that a training email was recently sent to all DVC Cast Members reaffirming Disney's policy.

Bill

I would love to know what that email says exactly! But I am naturally curious like that....anyone else?