DVC Karen: Don’t Be This Person

[DonMacGregor]

Technically, that's a comment.

“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice…”

Geddy Lee.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice…”

Geddy Lee.

Geddy sang it, but Neil wrote it.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Again, I'm not defending JA behavior in any way, but along the same lines above with reference to today's society, I also know a lot of things get gravely exaggerated to be way more than they really are/were. Without being there and seeing it, it's impossible to know just how bad this was. "Shoved in the chest" with 'two hands' can mean a lot of things. By the letter of the law, was it 'assault?' Probably. Did it rise to the level of pressing criminal charges? Apparently, the cast member didn't think it did. His or her call. Not ours. I say kudos to them for recognizing the severity and deciding for themselves what level it rose to (or not).

It's worth noting that the offender here is 71 years old. That changed my mental picture of the assault substantially.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

It's worth noting that the offender here is 71 years old. That changed my mental picture of the assault substantially.

Chuck Norris is 82.

Just Sayin’

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Chuck Norris is 82.

Just Sayin’

The offender was also described as having a "heavy build" so unlikely they have seen as much time as the gym as Chuck.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Geddy sang it, but Neil wrote it.

True, but you gotta spread the love around. Peart was a genius, pure and simple.

 

[Bearval]

I seem to remember another incident a few years ago where a DVC member definitely was trespassed from his own resort (and the rest of Disney World). I can’t remember the details though but it was on this board that it was discussed I think.

I believe in the incident you are referring to the person who was trespassed was a family member who was not listed on the title.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

i suspect there probably is some legal impediment to trespassing a DVC owner from their home resort without any sort of legal process. They would probably have to foreclose the property interest first. However, nothing is stopping Disney from trespassing him from every other resort and every theme park. I also think they could probably trespass him from the restaurants within the resort.

 

[DLgal]

It's worth noting that the offender here is 71 years old. That changed my mental picture of the assault substantially.

This changes nothing for me. 71 year olds have committed crimes plenty of times.

The mass shooting that just happened in Monterey Park, CA was committed by a 72 year old man. The Half Moon Bay shooter a few days later was a 66 year old man.

 

[DonMacGregor]

The offender was also described as having a "heavy build" so unlikely they have seen as much time as the gym as Chuck.

Chuck doesn’t spend time in the gym, the gym spends time with Chuck.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I have not had a chance to read through the POS, but IIRC, it does deal with things like this, but when you are at your home resort and bad behavior exists.

The key is that is different than Disney owned places, like parks, the restaurant and Disney owned hotels,

So, what they can do legally for this guest for booking and staying at BCV, his home resort, and other spots, is most likely different and why they have to look into it.

This could very well be why Disney has referred to legal. They may not know what options they have without carefully reviewing the facts. It may also be that since no one is pressing charges, their options are more limited. (this is all buried in legal stuff of which I am not an expert, but I know that it's all tied together).

Very likely the CM felt it was not worth their job, and did not consult Disney on it - just decided to waive it and not be a squeaky wheel. That's their right. I.E. they were not pressured by Disney explicitly, but still felt that it was not worth them making a fuss which they felt might jeopardize their employment or advancement opportunities.

Having said all that, I would be all for all possible punishment against the member within the limits of the law if Disney's investigation backs up the presented facts, and I HOPE that Disney does pursue the investigation to the fullest extent possible. I have absolutely no problem with Disney having the ability to force a member to sell at market rates and lose their rights if they are found to act in such a manner, but I do agree that there has to be a due process attached to that which requires a full investigation.

 

[Sandisw]

This could very well be why Disney has referred to legal. They may not know what options they have without carefully reviewing the facts. It may also be that since no one is pressing charges, their options are more limited. (this is all buried in legal stuff of which I am not an expert, but I know that it's all tied together).

Very likely the CM felt it was not worth their job, and did not consult Disney on it - just decided to waive it and not be a squeaky wheel. That's their right. I.E. they were not pressured by Disney explicitly, but still felt that it was not worth them making a fuss which they felt might jeopardize their employment or advancement opportunities.

Having said all that, I would be all for all possible punishment against the member within the limits of the law if Disney's investigation backs up the presented facts, and I HOPE that Disney does pursue the investigation to the fullest extent possible. I have absolutely no problem with Disney having the ability to force a member to sell at market rates and lose their rights if they are found to act in such a manner, but I do agree that there has to be a due process attached to that which requires a full investigation.

As many have stated, it may be hard to trespass him at a property that he has a deeded ownership interest in and I have not yet found anything in the POS that states one can be prohibited from using your DVC membership unless you do not pay.

I am not a lawyer, but I really do not think they can legally force him to sell his contract, but can certainly ban him from the parks, and other Disney owned locations. The issue then becomes what part of resorts are covered under MF's. and if MF's are paying for something, can they legally trespass him from something that is partially covered in MF's?

 

[Anthony Vito]

Disney really needs to take this out of the hands of Cast Members - if someone commits an assault against a Cast Member like this, Disney should have a general policy that charges are pressed. Chances are they have video and they had witnesses. Thus the CM doesn't feel the pressure of the situation.

It was an interesting point about other guests being at risk. If he were to commit an assault against someone else on property, there's actually a strong argument that Disney would have civil liability. I don't know about Florida, but general common law is that a property owner is liable for criminal actions of third parties that are foreseeable. Foreseeability certainly becomes a question, but given this incident, that would really work against them. Generally, the idea that someone would engage in criminal behavior or hurt someone in a public place is very foreseeable, so certain reasonable measure should be put in place. For example, security screenings, security in the park, etc. Some things could be stronger than other, and it's certainly a sliding scale, but think of someone getting mugged in a mall parking lot because there are no lights, or even stronger, a fight at an event where people are being served alcohol (especially one where fights have broken out before), etc. Not taking any action against someone who commits assault (technically, this would be battery in a civil context), I would think would weigh heavily against them if he did something to someone else. Like I said, very interesting point.

 

[AstroBlasters]

NEW DVC KAREN- Don’t be these people…

 

[DonMacGregor]

NEW DVC KAREN- Don’t be these people…

People were doing the same thing at the popcorn carts as well (and not for souvenir buckets). I will say though, that I don't get people complaining about not getting cash or credit back if you don't use the full $10. I mean, they gave you $30 worth of coupons. Be smart, combine items, and if you don't get any of your free money back, such is life. We used 5 vouchers at Boardwalk Pizza and ended up paying $28.15 for all five us to eat a full meal.

 

[AstroBlasters]

People were doing the same thing at the popcorn carts as well (and not for souvenir buckets). I will say though, that I don't get people complaining about not getting cash or credit back if you don't use the full $10. I mean, they gave you $30 worth of coupons. Be smart, combine items, and if you don't get any of your free money back, such is life. We used 5 vouchers at Boardwalk Pizza and ended up paying $28.15 for all five us to eat a full meal.

Personally, I would just find it exciting to be in the park for an after hours event where you can get on attractions with minimal lines and see some rare characters. Jiminy Cricket!

I watched a bit of a live stream on YouTube and it looked like a fun event. My wife said it would be pretty disappointing if we couldn’t get water for the kids because other people hoarded it all. I believe Adam Smith referred to this as “The Tragedy of the Commons.”

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Without being there and seeing it, it's impossible to know just how bad this was. "Shoved in the chest" with 'two hands' can mean a lot of things. By the letter of the law, was it 'assault?' Probably.

I don't think anyone should legit try to rationalize shoved vs two hands. You don't place your hands on an employee. Old or not.

Did it rise to the level of pressing criminal charges? Apparently, the cast member didn't think it did. His or her call. Not ours.

That's not exactly what happened.

Rise to the level of criminal charges and opting to not press them are not the same things. This is also why various jurisdictions have laws where it doesn't matter if the victim wants to press charges or not they just automatically are.

In no way should we presume to think the CM didn't feel it didn't rise to pressing charges. It can mean that, or it can mean they feared some sort of after effects either by Disney or by this person or their family or they were worried about what that might mean (as far as steps).

On the other hand I do understand Disney's double checking here on what course they have. If they had support for their employee they would (IMO) do what they could do within legal means. I don't believe everything is bound by criminal charges in terms of what Disney can legally do although it certainly would help them but I can't fault the employee here, it's not really as simple as it may sound to choose to not press charges.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Personally, I would just find it exciting to be in the park for an after hours event where you can get on attractions with minimal lines and see some rare characters. Jiminy Cricket!

I watched a bit of a live stream on YouTube and it looked like a fun event. My wife said it would be pretty disappointing if we couldn’t get water for the kids because other people hoarded it all. I believe Adam Smith referred to this as “The Tragedy of the Commons.”

And Aristotle:

“That which is common to the greatest number gets the least amount of care. Men pay most attention to what is their own: they care less for what is common."

 

[Sammie]

NEW DVC KAREN- Don’t be these people…

All those sodas will rot their teeth and gut. That is karma.

 

[eandt]

I want to state up front: I'm not defending this guy. What he did was terrible, regardless of how hard he touched the cast member, where he touched them, and regardless of the cast-member's gender. IMO, touching someone (especially in an aggressive manner), without their consent is a HUGE no-no. It violates one of the basic human rights: freedom of security of the person.

After skimming the Multi-site POS, BCV POS, and the Home Resort Rules and Regulations, I don't see anything that could keep the member from using his membership. The ONLY thing I could find where someone would be unable to book and/or check-in for a reservation is if a member doesn't pay their annual dues.

Disney COULD trespass him from the parks, Disney Springs, and the elements of the Beach Club Resort run solely for Disney's benefit (restaurants, quick service, etc.)

I don't even think they could trespass the member from the other DVC resorts, as his membership is a part of the multi-site POS which pretty much says he can use the BCV points freely at all of the resorts that participate in the multi-site DVC program. This does include the shared "common elements" such as the pool, lobbies, etc.

I could see DVC refusing to serve the member at on-site restaurants as those are privately run establishments...and trespassing them from the parks, Disney Springs, and even the quick service places at the resorts REALLY diminishes the value of DVC to the person who owns it.

Wow someone lost their cool at Disney???? Fact is all of this was alleged, the guy wasn't convicted or even charged so guess here is that the incident is being made much bigger here than it was there ... Also there is nowhere on that property that isn't surveilled with the exception of inside restrooms (I hope) so no doubt this was captured on camera for the police to peruse if they desired.