DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[wiihoo888]

RUMOR: Disney Vacation Club Exploring a New Trust-Based Ownership Interest?​

A recent corporate filing has sparked speculation that DVC may be considering a major shift in its vacation club product offerings!
https://dvcfan.com/2023/12/14/rumor...ploring-a-new-trust-based-ownership-interest/
#disneyvacationclub #dvc #disney #disneyparks #disneyworld

Speculation is an understatement. We’ve created a spitballing event for the next Olympics over here

 

[ziravan]

Agreed, but if they start selling millions of new direct deeded points, and at some point next year initiate another way people could have bought, it’s going to seem like Disney deliberately concealed the new option in order to promote sales.

Also, I’m having trouble with the concept of potential trust buyers not being able to book various resorts in said trust, depending on whether or not points have run out. As has been noted many times, people buy without understanding all the ramifications, but this is one that needs to be made crystal clear, because it could potentially nullify any interest in the option.

This all sounds so typically timeshare-y, and it’s the differentiation between DVC and everything else out there which adds to its value.

As long as you have your promised windows and a chance to book consistent with your points size, the trust has no effect deeded owners.

The POS requires this so they will have to reconcile it.

In that case, a trust offering has no effect whatsoever on deeded ownership. Or at least, no effect within the terms of the POS, which is all DVC has promised - so same thing from their perspective. I think DVC will rightly consider that you have no cause to be upset about such an offering and they shouldn’t have to - and won’t - consider your feelings on the matter. Their response will be something akin to “learn why this doesn’t effect you instead of being upset over nothing.”

I doubt this is ready to go with CFW. I am interested though, in what changes they make to a POS that is published as they’re considering it.

 

[wiihoo888]

Almost every system that I’m aware of that has gone to a trust has also continued to sell deeded interests in individual resorts. There are some people who want that, and the developers want to have diverse products that they can more easily market. The fact that Disney may be selling Trust points soon doesn’t mean they’re going to stop selling deeded interests anytime soon.

I’m 100% in this camp. Think they’ll be heavily pushing the trust at some point, but who knows when that will be. an’t see them losing the deeded interests though. It’s two different pools, that really don’t affect each other much, with two different desires, Still wonder what they are going to do with the restricted resale. Is it just an easier ROFR or direct buy back for them? Or are they going to make an add-on/upgrade type thing for these types of purchasers?

 

[wiihoo888]

Yes, if you’re in the FWC camp, some percentage of buyers are already DVC members, and they care about other resorts. I think if Disney was starting to launch an entirely new DVC product, they’d do it with whatever new resort they’re selling, and we’d hear about it in initial marketing materials. I don’t think it would be an “oh yeah, we’re selling this too” kind of approach after FWC goes on sale. Feels like you’re twisting the narrative to keep it going in your direction.

And what about all the new VDH owners? I would be livid if Disney concealed this from me prior to buying a direct contract.

As a recent Riviera add on direct purchaser, it’s less livid and more a monumental WTAF

 

[DisneyMimiUSMC]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this and admittedly doing a poor job. I've been thinking about adding another resale contract. Should I wait or quickly get to it? How will this affect the resale market?

 

[achinforsomebacon]

From the way I read the limited documents filed and what I have been able to learn about these systems, that’s not how it works.

A trust is nothing more than an association that adds property to it that it owns and then sells access to that property via memberships/owernship into the trust n

Deeded ownerships are treated differently in terms of the statutes because you are buying an actual owernship in the property.

People buying into a trust are not. The trust itself remains owner of the deeded interest.

But, nothing to stop them from declaring some units as deeded interests to be sold and some units remain owned by the trust and sold as access to them.

As I thought about it more, why can't the trust transfer the deeds it owns to new owners just like any other owner? Or is it not possible due to the trust (this is all very new to me)?

I would think this gives them the best of both worlds. Put ALL points they own in the trust and do all dealings from there. If you want the deeded interest, transfer that. If you just want access to the trust points, sell whatever that is. If someone wants a deed to a sold out resort, pull from the trust pool (if that's possible).

 

[pkrieger2287]

Speculation is an understatement. We’ve created a spitballing event for the next Olympics over here

I mean if I'm judging I'm awarding the gold medal already... Game over. Lol

 

[ziravan]

This is from the Florida statute (689.071) cited in their trust docs:

“The trustee’s legal and equitable title to the trust property of a land trust is separate and distinct from the beneficial interest of a beneficiary in the land trust and in the trust property.”

That statute also requires that “beneficial interests” be recorded in order to provide the ability to secure liens against them.

I think these are the key words - instead of buying a deeded interest, trust owners will be buying a beneficiary interest in the trust.

And after having looked over their trust filing, this is much further along then some abstract concept. They are moving forward with this - and soon.

 

[ljmiii]

As long as you have your promised windows and a chance to book consistent with your points size, the trust has no effect deeded owners...Or at least, no effect within the terms of the POS, which is all DVC has promised...

Exactly this. The introduction of a trust will make life more difficult for those who own at desirable resorts as any point in the trust at those resorts will be used at 11 months sharp rather than spread out from 7-11 months or perhaps used at another resort altogether. But making "life more difficult" is neither a violation of the POS nor an actionable offense.

Not that people and their lawyers haven't tried. MVC has successfully defended itself against a bunch of lawsuits arguing that the introduction of a points system has made it more difficult to make reservations and trade through II and/or that because the ability to elect a week into points does not transfer to a new resale buyer the value of weeks has plummeted. All of which is true. But none of which has gotten any traction in the court system whatsoever.

MVC actually did violate some of their resort POSs by allowing points owners to book at 13 months even though the underlying docs specify that 13 month reservations can only be made for concurrent or consecutive reservations at that resort. But other resorts don't have that language and MVC (which of course controls the booking engine) decided that concurrent/consecutive reservations made at *any* MVC resort qualify for 13 month reservations...and therefore the trust reservations do as well. But nothing has been considered deserving of compensation much less a material breach of contract.

 

[Sandisw]

As I thought about it more, why can't the trust transfer the deeds it owns to new owners just like any other owner? Or is it not possible due to the trust (this is all very new to me)?

I would think this gives them the best of both worlds. Put ALL points they own in the trust and do all dealings from there. If you want the deeded interest, transfer that. If you just want access to the trust points, sell whatever that is. If someone wants a deed to a sold out resort, pull from the trust pool (if that's possible).

The trust will have its own POS. The purpose of a trust type system is to give people access to multiple resorts as you have no home resort priority.

Deeded owners do have home resort priority because they are buying an owner ship to the resort…

Think of it this way…they put Unit 1 from three different resorts in the trust…all rooms associated with those units are fully available tp the trust members. If you buy a deeded interest, in one of them, why buy something where you are now competing with people who don’t actually own.

I am still not even sure how the trust can add its partial interests in a unit to the trust yet for resorts already sold…

That’s why I said, they might simply do what they did with favorite weeks….set aside a certain number of units that they sell deeded ownership to and some that are sold as part of a trust based timeshare plan. By doing this, they set it up so owners who choose one way or the other know what they are getting.

Take RIV…they have declared maybe 65% of the resort (my best guesstimate). They can decide to sell the rest of it as part of the trust and declare deeded ownerships sold out…only avialbe if they reaquire points.

Those of us who own RIV as deeded have access to the 65% declared that way and rest can be added using different rules in terms of booking so it doesn’t potentially violate current terms.

To add, this is all based on my understanding of it all…until we get more info, it’s all speculation!

 

[BeachClub2014]

The trust will have its own POS. The purpose of a trust type system is to give people access to multiple resorts as you have no home resort priority.

Deeded owners do have home resort priority because they are buying an owner ship to the resort…

Think of it this way…they put Unit 1 from three different resorts in the trust…all rooms associated with those units are fully available tp the trust members. If you buy a deeded interest, in one of them, why buy something where you are now competing with people who don’t actually own.

I am still not even sure how the trust can add its partial interests in a unit to the trust yet for resorts already sold…

That’s why I said, they might simply do what they did with favorite weeks….set aside a certain number of units that they sell deeded ownership to and some that are sold as part of a trust based timeshare plan. By doing this, they set it up so owners who choose one way or the other know what they are getting.

Take RIV…they have declared maybe 65% of the resort (my best guesstimate). They can decide to sell the rest of it as part of the trust and declare deeded ownerships sold out…only avialbe if they reaquire points.

Those of us who own RIV as deeded have access to the 65% declared that way and rest can be added using different rules in terms of booking so it doesn’t potentially violate current terms.

Are you saying this as it would be problematic, or just unsure of the mechanics of doing so? It would seem to me, and I grant you that I know almost nothing about trusts, that having the ability to transfer legacy resort points held by DVD into the Trust would be really important to them to make those resorts available (on some scale) to Trust members. If this holds true, then through the use of ROFR, the legacy resort points in the Trust continue to increase.

Unless I am just totally misunderstanding the concept.

 

[walt34]

Are you saying this as it would be problematic, or just unsure of the mechanics of doing so? It would seem to me, and I grant you that I know almost nothing about trusts, that having the ability to transfer legacy resort points held by DVD into the Trust would be really important to them to make those resorts available (on some scale) to Trust members. If this holds true, then through the use of ROFR, the legacy resort points in the Trust continue to increase.

Unless I am just totally misunderstanding the concept.

The trust could still have 'access' to the other resorts at 7 months - so no different than access for a 'deeded' owner at a different resort. Let's hope they won't try to move points from sold-out resorts to the trust. This would negatively affect availability for existing, deeded owners.

 

[Sandisw]

Are you saying this as it would be problematic, or just unsure of the mechanics of doing so? It would seem to me, and I grant you that I know almost nothing about trusts, that having the ability to transfer legacy resort points held by DVD into the Trust would be really important to them to make those resorts available (on some scale) to Trust members. If this holds true, then through the use of ROFR, the legacy resort points in the Trust continue to increase.

Unless I am just totally misunderstanding the concept.

I think it’s potentially problematic…but don’t have enough information yet….lets use an example…

The trust as to add real property to it…it doesn’t add points…but the real estate that those points represent.

So, say DVD .005% of Unit 1, Unit 2 and Unit 3 at a sold put resort…they have to change ownership to just those partial units.

Now, take CFW or Poly tower units that are new…they can add whole units easily…and set up everything to match how they want to sell (see above for my ideas for cabins)

It just seems to me it’s that that can land them in conflict with the current POS which guarantee us, as deeded owners, that DVD must have the same process and booking rules as the rest of us.

Resale restrictions don’t carry when the ROFR, and they can own more than the 4000/8000 limits, but for booking it is supposed to be the same….and while we don’t know exaclty if they take a few liberties, doing a move like this, at least to me, would need to be explained as to how it doesn’t change things.

 

[BeachClub2014]

The trust could still have 'access' to the other resorts at 7 months - so no different than access for a 'deeded' owner at a different resort. Let's hope they won't try to move points from sold-out resorts to the trust. This would negatively affect availability for existing, deeded owners.

Right, good point. But, if you were the DVD VP in charge of marketing and the VP of sales, wouldn't you want to be able to market and sell Trust membership by saying the members in the trust have 11-month priority access to all of those resorts?

I'm still unclear as to how this would potentially negatively impact existing deeded owners in a resort. Whoever owns points deeded points in a legacy resort has the same rules for making reservations and access to the calendar at 11-months. The Trust owning those deeded points and allowing members to book them is really no different than a commercial rental company doing so now. Right?

 

[BeachClub2014]

I think it’s potentially problematic…but don’t have enough information yet….lets use an example…

The trust as to add real property to it…it doesn’t add points…but the real estate that those points represent.

So, say DVD .005% of Unit 1, Unit 2 and Unit 3 at a sold put resort…they have to change ownership to just those partial units.

Now, take CFW or Poly tower units that are new…they can add whole units easily…and set up everything to match how they want to sell (see above for my ideas for cabins)

It just seems to me it’s that that can land them in conflict with the current POS which guarantee us, as deeded owners, that DVD must have the same process and booking rules as the rest of us.

Resale restrictions don’t carry when the ROFR, and they can own more than the 4000/8000 limits, but for booking it is supposed to be the same….and while we don’t know exaclty if they take a few liberties, doing a move like this, at least to me, would need to be explained as to how it doesn’t change things.

Maybe. I guess I am just viewing the Trust as akin to rental companies that we know already exist within the deeded DVC environment. The points controlled by the rental company are booked in the same fashion as yours and mine, and it works within the POS. I'm not seeing the difference.

 

[Sandisw]

Maybe. I guess I am just viewing the Trust as akin to rental companies that we know already exist within the deeded DVC environment. The points controlled by the rental company are booked in the same fashion as yours and mine, and it works within the POS. I'm not seeing the difference.

Because the rental companies, if they actually are owners of points, and not the rentals by owners, are limited to how many memberships they can have and points owned. They also give renters access to the accounts. They, the owners, do all the booking.

They are also limited by the number of accounts that can be set up to access that one set of points at a time.

With a trust, unlimited number of accounts can be set up to access the same set of points at the same time.

Instead of you and I who are capped at 4 associates…which is probably how it works for the rental company accounts…this would not.

And that means different rules. Think of it this way, I have VGF and RIV points in my Dec UY…no matter what, I can only book one room at a time…until my points are gone. But, what I can’t do is book multiple rooms for the same date at once.

A trust is different and allows multiple people to book the same day with one set of points. So, that is a conflict for me.

ETA. I even tried to have my DD and I try to book the same dates with our individual accounts…same membership and one of us always got the dwarfs.

 

[Sykes]

Because the rental companies, if they actually are owners of points, and not the rentals by owners, are limited to how many memberships they can have and points owned.

They are also limited by the number of accounts that can be set up to access that one set of points at a time.

With a trust, unlimited number of accounts can be set up to access the same set of points at the same time.

All of that can be solved or worked around with relatively small technical enhancements to the booking system without changing the written policy. It wouldn’t be a limiting factor.

ETA. I even tried to have my DD and I try to book the same dates with our individual accounts…same membership and one of us always got the dwarfs.

I book multiple rooms for the same dates under the same account all the time. My co-owner also frequently books the same dates I do under the same contract but different online accounts.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Because the rental companies, if they actually are owners of points, and not the rentals by owners, are limited to how many memberships they can have and points owned. They also give renters access to the accounts. They, the owners, do all the booking.

They are also limited by the number of accounts that can be set up to access that one set of points at a time.

With a trust, unlimited number of accounts can be set up to access the same set of points at the same time.

Instead of you and I who are capped at 4 associates…which is probably how it works for the rental company accounts…this would not.

And that means different rules. Think of it this way, I have VGF and RIV points in my Dec UY…no matter what, I can only book one room at a time…until my points are gone. But, what I can’t do is book multiple rooms for the same date at once.

A trust is different and allows multiple people to book the same day with one set of points. So, that is a conflict for me.

ETA. I even tried to have my DD and I try to book the same dates with our individual accounts…same membership and one of us always got the dwarfs.

I am tracking what you're saying, and it makes sense. Having said that, doesn't DVC already do this when they offer declared villas for cash stays? Seems to me that this allows multiple reservations on the same dates. But maybe I am thinking of this incorrectly. I know it's not exactly the same, but it seems to me that DVD is likely to figure out a way to do so.

 

[Sandisw]

All of that can be solved or worked around with relatively small technical enhancements to the booking system without changing the written policy. It wouldn’t be a limiting factor.


I book multiple rooms for the same dates under the same account all the time.

I have had multiple rooms for the same dates too. But I have to secure them one at a time. And MS is limited as well.

So, if I want two SV studios at RIv, I have to book one and then the other.

 

[Sandisw]

I am tracking what you're saying, and it makes sense. Having said that, doesn't DVC already do this when they offer declared villas for cash stays? Seems to me that this allows multiple reservations on the same dates. But maybe I am thinking of this incorrectly. I know it's not exactly the same, but it seems to me that DVD is likely to figure out a way to do so.

Maybe I’m not making sense. Let
Me try again! It’s not about having the same rooms for same dates. I can do that.

But, I can not book multiple at once. That means, in the time it takes me to secure one, I can lose out on the second.

And yes, that has happened. It’s why I walk a few days of my December dates when I need multiple rooms

Say the trust has 1000 members and has 10k points, I could be competing against all 1000 for the same dates when technically I should be competing against one…the actual owner of the points.

With new resorts or inventory that hasn’t been yet declared, it will be simple because they can set up rules differently.

It’s for the current resorts sold out that could be the conflict. Why I keep going back that I don’t see DVD adding partial units like this and just allowing trust members to actual new units.