Down Syndrome child, corporal punishment & school.. need input.. long

[jamimb]

In response to your statement above, which I bolded..... those of us that don't believe in corporal punishment either at school or home, get outraged because we don't understand this barbaric method of discipline.

I have a different opinion than yours when you say: "I know some of those children wouldnt need that kind of intervention if their parents had taken the time to do it at home." I personally believe that many of these children would not behave the way they do & act out if they were not so angry because of the behavior they are witnessing/learning at home (ie: being spanked, hit)

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better! You know what "disgusts" me. A child who is not disciplined at all!!!! That is outrageous!!!!! Trust me In most cases the children whom the principal has to spank see NO form of discipline at home spanking or otherwise!!!

 

[Disney Ella]

The main reason that a spanking happens (whether they admit it or not) is that the adults in charge need an outlet for their frustrations. Not a very good reason to hit someone.

Spanking is statistically NOT a good deterrent for children exhibiting truly delinquent behavior. It has shown effective in changing class clown-like behavior. But really? You're going to physically beat a child for shooting rubber bands?

Those educators who support or participate in corporal punishment are showing themselves to be ignorant ineffective educators. It is the mark of a school that is both in poverty (a statistical fact) and under trained. An African American student has twice the likelihood of being beaten at school and a child with disabilities is most likely to be beaten.

I would hope that anyone in the education field who believed that spanking was a good deterrent would either go back to school themselves or find a new profession.

There are many, many intelligent, compassionate people and educators in the south. The above post, unfortunately reinforces the opposite stereotype for the rest of the country and world.

ITA! What kind of example do adults set for children when they hit them? "You must never hit anyone. Hitting is wrong. Use your words to try to work out the problem you have with the other person. Oh, uh, except for me. If you do something I don't like, I don't have to bother to try to find a rational way to deal with it, I can just strike out at you because you're smaller than me and can't do anything about it."

 

[Briarmom]

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better! You know what "disgusts" me. A child who is not disciplined at all!!!! That is outrageous!!!!! Trust me In most cases the children whom the principal has to spank see NO form of discipline at home spanking or otherwise!!!

My children are disciplined. How do you know that the children who behave better are on the receiving end of spanking?

What age do you teach? Your grasp of punctuation leaves something to be desired.

 

[kellyg403]

I am not a spanker, though I do believe that there is a difference in spanking and beating a child/person. I live in NC which is one of the states that do still have corporal punishment in the schools. But here, it doesn't start until middle school. No corporal punishment in elementary unless specifically requested by the parent. I have never witnessed anything like the poster though I do think I probably would have started crying right then and there.

I have never opted out on the spanking. If my middle schooler or high schooler gets spanked in school they are well old enough to know they have been warned enough times. The schools don't just pick a student and spank them. There are several warnings according to the handbook before it occurs. If you are 13 years old and you have been given the warnings and still think you are above it, I guess the school has to do what it has to do. I have luckily raised children who understand what school is for, are respectful most of the time (as much as a teen can I guess) but know that bad behavior in school is unacceptable. School is for learning, for yourself and your peers. It is unfair to be a disruption because you can.

I would never, ever condone spanking a child with Downs or any other disability. That is the worst thing I have ever heard. BUT, and that is a big but, I do not know what the parent has decided for that particular child or the reasons for that decision. I definitely do think too many people get involved in what is right or wrong in other peoples family because they do not agree with it in their own family. If I felt so strongle about the corporal punishment issue, you can bet I would be doing what I could to change the policy with the school board, the county and the state. As for the lack of discretion on the schools part..now that I would be involved in from the moment it occurred. No way I would have stood there and not said something about it being humiliating for me and for the child in questions. There is no way I wouldn't complain about it.

I do have one question though, here in NC, our handbook specifically states that there is always a second adult in the room as a witness so that nothing gets out of hand. Is that the policy there?

Kelly

 

[java]

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better!

Um I am really surprised you work with children with an attitude like that. I am glad we don't go to your school.
My children are very well behaved. I have 4 ranging in age from 3- 14. NONE of them have ever been in trouble at school. We are often complimented when we are out on their behaviour and their treatment of each other. And guess what? We don't spank. We found other meathods of discipline that worked. There's a big world out there.

 

[JodyLynC]

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better! You know what "disgusts" me. A child who is not disciplined at all!!!! That is outrageous!!!!! Trust me In most cases the children whom the principal has to spank see NO form of discipline at home spanking or otherwise!!!

There are other forms of discipline besides spanking.

 

[MissyDVC]

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better! You know what "disgusts" me. A child who is not disciplined at all!!!! That is outrageous!!!!! Trust me In most cases the children whom the principal has to spank see NO form of discipline at home spanking or otherwise!!!

You sound angry already and I am thrilled that my beautiful children do not go to your school or any school that believes that words are not enough to teach them.

 

[Disney Ella]

I have never opted out on the spanking. If my middle schooler or high schooler gets spanked in school they are well old enough to know they have been warned enough times. The schools don't just pick a student and spank them. There are several warnings according to the handbook before it occurs. If you are 13 years old and you have been given the warnings and still think you are above it, I guess the school has to do what it has to do. I have luckily raised children who understand what school is for, are respectful most of the time (as much as a teen can I guess) but know that bad behavior in school is unacceptable. School is for learning, for yourself and your peers. It is unfair to be a disruption because you can.

Where do they draw the line for what offenses they hit children? At my kids' school, hitting students is not allowed, but it seems to me that children are sometimes sent to the principal for trivial reasons. Even if a child is being an annoyance and talking in class, hitting seems to be an extreme overreaction. Do they tell the parents under what circumstances they will hit your children?

 

[dhcoffey]

I live in GA where we do have to opt out if we don't want our children paddled. I think they do it up until middle school which starts here in sixth grade. I am not against spanking as a last resort with my kids. I never do it first, always as a last resort. Haven't had to spank my kids more than once or twice their whole lives. But I do give permission for the school to paddle my kids if necessary. They also don't do it first, only as a last resort. Have they done it? Yes, once for each of my kids, that's all it took.

Apparently not a lot of people agree with this at all and that's fine. My kids, my decision. I'm sure you do things with your kids I wouldn't agree with either but I know best how to raise my kids and I understood that the school needed to get their attention after they wouldn't act respectfully at school and they went through all the other discipline methods available. Also, the teacher does it here, not the principal, not that that makes it any different to some people.

Heather

 

[MELSMICE]

You apparently do not work around children all day long.

You apparently don't know me as a poster. I am the owner of a children's dance studio. I work with children on a daily basis. They range in age from 2 through college age. I've pretty much seen & dealt with it all.

When a preschooler spit in my face, I calmly, took her by the hands, told her that we don't behave that way & sat her in a chair. She never did it again & was a student for over 10 years.

When a preschooler started throwing a tantrum & kicking in class, I took him by the hand, sat him in front of the class & told him when he decided he could behave he could join the class again. When he continued to act out, I had an assistant sit next to him until he was calm enough to rejoin us.

There is one student in particular, however, that has come so far it brings tears to my eyes when I think of it. I took him on as a student not realizing he had some real behavior issues. After a few weeks of bad behavior I had to carry him out to his mother while he was kicking & screaming. I put him down, held his hand & told his mom, "I can not allow this behavior in class. When he is ready to listen and behave he can return."

I have witnessed first hand the way his mother treats him, the way she talks to him - this kid didn't stand a chance from the get go. She continually demeans (sp?) him in front of others and she does spank. We now know why his behavior was the way it was.

It has been about 5 years that he is a student. He went from being disruptive in class (for the attention it got him) to not acting out, just talking non-stop (because no one would ever listen to him). He does not act out any more, he knows when he is allowed to talk & when to listen. He is about 10 or 11 now & he will come in & hug us teachers, telling us that he loves to come to dancing because he loves the teachers. I could go on & on, but you get the picture.

His mother on the other hand - he has no respect for her. Honestly, it is difficult for me to respect her as a parent when I see the way she treats him. Imagine your mother telling you (in front of other people) on the day you get a retainer, "You sound like an idiot with that thing in your mouth. No one is going to understand a word you're saying. You sound so stupid."

It took a lot of patience by many teachers & he is not the ideal student, but he is not the monster that came to us.............and we never even imagined it was OK to hit/spank him.

 

[kellyg403]

Where do they draw the line for what offenses they hit children? At my kids' school, hitting students is not allowed, but it seems to me that children are sometimes sent to the principal for trivial reasons. Even if a child is being an annoyance and talking in class, hitting seems to be an extreme overreaction. Do they tell the parents under what circumstances they will hit your children?

I will be honest and say that I am unaware of the offenses that would trigger spanking. I have not had a child spanked in school, though they always have known it was option for them. Every year at the start of school we have gone over the rules and the handbook re: what is tolerated and what is not. They know that I will allow the school to take action should there be a problem that can not be corrected ANY OTHER WAY. Now, I have had kids that talked in school too much that went to the first/second punishment which was detention, I have had a student suspended for not being in class when the bell rang too many times (teen girls love the restroom evidently between the classes) I have had a student that was caught letting another child copy off their test paper and received a zero and two days detention. I really think that in our school system, spanking is the total LAST resort. Especially the being late to class on a consistent basis, I could imagine that they could have instituted the spanking policy around the 3rd time. However, I will say my sdd birth mom has opted out on the spanking issue for her dd's. So, that was not really an option for sdd which probably was the reason she was suspended.

Kelly

 

[jamimb]

My children are disciplined. How do you know that the children who behave better are on the receiving end of spanking?

What age do you teach? Your grasp of punctuation leaves something to be desired.

We live in a small town I know most of these children personally. All the children that I do know for a fact are spanked are very well behaved, well adjusted children. I am not saying you have to be spanked to be well behaved but I am saying that those who are spanked in school never or rarely get a spanking at home or any other form of discipline at home. My point (as was from the beginning) is if parents would discipline at home (whatever form that may take) administrators would not have to do it at school where their main focus should be the child's education. I will say agian it is RARE and only used as a last resort. It's not like we have children lined up outside the principal's office waiting for a spanking. It is only used in cases where every other form of discipline has been applied to that child with no results.

And for the record I do recognize that there are children who are spanked and mistreated that misbehave to lash out so to speak. If the parent has signed a form allowing the school to spank then it's really none of our buisness anyway!!!

I by no means try to pretend to be an expert on the subject of discipline or spanking versus not spanking all I can comment about is what I have seen and witnessed myself here at school and in my own life.

 

[kellyg403]

We live in a small town I know most of these children personally. All the children that I do know for a fact are spanked are very well behaved, well adjusted children. I am not saying you have to be spanked to be well behaved but I am saying that those who are spanked in school never or rarely get a spanking at home or any other form of discipline at home. My point (as was from the beginning) is if parents would discipline at home (whatever form that may take) administrators would not have to do it at school where their main focus should be the child's education. I will say agian it is RARE and only used as a last resort. It's not like we have children lined up outside the principal's office waiting for a spanking. It is only used in cases where every other form of discipline has been applied to that child with no results.

And as always, if you are inclined to not letting your child be spanked at school, do not agree with spanking you may OPT OUT. It is not a blanket statement for your child, that she/he will be spanked no matter what you the parent think or agree with. But, if the behavior is ongoing your child will eventually be suspended or expelled. I have lived in NC for 14 years and have only known one child who was spanked. In his case, it did correct some of the issues he had at school with the teachers. His out of school behavior remained the same and he is destined to be getting visitors for two hours on a Sunday. But, that is a blanket statement since he may or may not mature sooner than later, or at the very least eventually the legal system will get tired of it and he will learn his lesson the hard way.

While I do not agree with beating a child, have rarely hit or spanked my children I am not inclined to interfere with another parents rights to raise their child whether I agree or not. I have seen children from families that have spanked who turned out to be great people, I have seen kids that were abused that turned out to great people, I have seen kids who had no discipline turn around and be huge disciplinarians to their kids. Its just not so cut and dried. I agree there are so many options, but those options have worked well with my children. Had they not, I can not honestly say I would not explore all avenues that would teach them the correct way to behave. Some people have exhausted all avenues and want to give their child a wake up call, some parents don't care as long as they aren't the mean one, and some parents who just don't care period as long as it isn't interfering in their lives. The whole corporal punishment thing is a non issue because you as a parent can opt out and make the decision not to have your child spanked. It is only an issue in those states where the parent is not given that option IMHO.

Kelly

 

[hrh_disney_queen]

I live in GA and our public (magnet) elementary school does not employ corporal punishment (specifically written into the Code Of Conduct). I guess it is up to the individual school or county. I will be looking for that fine print when DS10 enters middle school next year.

 

[brockash]

OK now this is prob. going to open a big can of worms... but Im not sure where to even begin on this ..so I thought I would ask the smart folks here on the Dis.

I picked up my DS today at school and while in the office. I noticed a lil girl with Downs in the office holding hands with a teacher or aide. The child had been crying and the aide put down a piece of paper for the secretary standing before me.
It was a corporal punishment letter.. so I now know why the poor thing is so upset.
The child and aide enter the principal's office and I hear the principal yelling at another child and then the door shuts and he is spanked.. very loudly three times. I can hear ever y hit.. and was standing prob at least 20 feet away with several people around me talking.
I about came unglued.. it took alot of self control not to storm the principal's office.
There is so much Im upset about..
Why the need to spank and yell where everyone can hear it?
Why the need to spank a child with Down's .. I dont know much about it . but cant imagine it will do much good, doesn't Downs affect a person's metal capacity ?
Why is a child's corporal punishment state letter placed where all can read it?
Im know there is more im freaked out about.. but I cant really think clearly at this moment.
I let my son's teacher know I am NOT happy .. she didnt look real happy about the situation either. She was really surprised I could hear it all.. she also is not for spanking in our schools and I think frankly surprised the new principal wasnt more professtional.... I guess ?


Im just so upset. I want to write a letter to the Principal and I am also thinking of trying to get a group together to stop our parish ( same as a county) from spanking.
I dont know where to begin.. but it would be nice to hear from someone with Down's experience . What is the medical communities thoughts on it?
Are there any reliable websites I can read up on punishment and down's.

Oh just for FYI.. you have to sign a letter to opt out of corporal punishment in our parish.. you can imagine what I signed.

OMG!!!!! Is every school where you live like that? If not, I'd pull my kids out of that school/district as fast as possible. What the heck kind of school thinks it's okay to spank someone else's child. It's 2008. My gosh, in some states, the parents would be charged with child abuse if someone saw that, and with a DS child. Are you kidding me? I can't express how completely disgusted and angry your story has made me (not directed towards you, but the fact that this kind of thing happens.) I can not believe that there are school districts that make a parent "opt-out" of allowing their child to be hit by someone. That is completely disgusting. My DH is in the Army and so we move a lot, and I wouldn't even think to ask about that or to "opt-out" if we happened to land in a school district as ignorant as that. I'm completely disgusted, and I'm so sorry you're in a situation like that. I can't believe ppl. haven't sued the school district. That's completely disgusting, and those ppl. should be so ashamed of themselves... and don't even get me started on the fact that they apparently spanked a down syndrome child. They're poor excuses for human beings and should have never been allowed near a school. I think your idea about trying to get a group together to ban it is a great idea, and you would be a great citizen for all if you did. Good luck to you!

 

[jamimb]

Um I am really surprised you work with children with an attitude like that. I am glad we don't go to your school.
My children are very well behaved. I have 4 ranging in age from 3- 14. NONE of them have ever been in trouble at school. We are often complimented when we are out on their behaviour and their treatment of each other. And guess what? We don't spank. We found other meathods of discipline that worked. There's a big world out there.

Have you even read any of my posts??? I do not like a child having to be spanked!!! It breaks my heart but what breaks my heart even more is a child who is not disciplined at all and left to their own devices,those children trun out to be brats and do not live up ot their potential! I do spank my children from time to time when needed and all else fails and I too get many compliments fom their teachers here at school. Both are very well behaved and in the gifted program here at school. I think it is great that your children are well behaved but some parents choose to discipline different than you and thats okay too. I spank and my children are both very happy,well adjusted children. My 7 yr old DD's gym teacher was just telling me that she has never seen a happier child. I know that there are other forms of discipline and some work very well for some children but again if the parents consented to it it's no one else buisness. I will say this again for the last time, it is used here as a LAST RESORT when the child has not responded to other multiple forms of discipline.

 

[brockash]

And as always, if you are inclined to not letting your child be spanked at school, do not agree with spanking you may OPT OUT. It is not a blanket statement for your child, that she/he will be spanked no matter what you the parent think or agree with. But, if the behavior is ongoing your child will eventually be suspended or expelled. I have lived in NC for 14 years and have only known one child who was spanked. In his case, it did correct some of the issues he had at school with the teachers. His out of school behavior remained the same and he is destined to be getting visitors for two hours on a Sunday. But, that is a blanket statement since he may or may not mature sooner than later, or at the very least eventually the legal system will get tired of it and he will learn his lesson the hard way.

While I do not agree with beating a child, have rarely hit or spanked my children I am not inclined to interfere with another parents rights to raise their child whether I agree or not. I have seen children from families that have spanked who turned out to be great people, I have seen kids that were abused that turned out to great people, I have seen kids who had no discipline turn around and be huge disciplinarians to their kids. Its just not so cut and dried. I agree there are so many options, but those options have worked well with my children. Had they not, I can not honestly say I would not explore all avenues that would teach them the correct way to behave. Some people have exhausted all avenues and want to give their child a wake up call, some parents don't care as long as they aren't the mean one, and some parents who just don't care period as long as it isn't interfering in their lives. The whole corporal punishment thing is a non issue because you as a parent can opt out and make the decision not to have your child spanked. It is only an issue in those states where the parent is not given that option IMHO.


Kelly

I certainly hope by this statement you didn't mean that you wouldn't interfere if a parent was beating their child. That would be very sad and selfish if it was; however I like to give ppl. the benefit of the doubt, and so I'm hoping you meant if a parent chooses to "spank" their child, and not beat.
Hitting someone solves absolutely nothing long term; it's just an easy way out for the short term. All it does is install fear in the child of the person hitting them, which basically just teaches them that bullying works, and whoever can hit or is the biggest is the boss. That's disgusting.

 

[jamimb]

You sound angry already and I am thrilled that my beautiful children do not go to your school or any school that believes that words are not enough to teach them.

I do get very angry when there is NO form of discipline at home. I am not by any means saying you have to spank but I would rather see that than no discipline at all. I get angry when I am condemned as a parent because I do spank children from time to time.

As an educator my sincerest wish is for all the children at this school and every school to live up to their potential in a place they can feel like is a second home. It does NOT make me happy to have to discipline in any way. Like I said in a previous post I absolutely HATE even having to write a discipline form and send a child to the office.

 

[okeydokey]

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better! You know what "disgusts" me. A child who is not disciplined at all!!!! That is outrageous!!!!! Trust me In most cases the children whom the principal has to spank see NO form of discipline at home spanking or otherwise!!!

Wow, what a blanket generalization. My children are always among the best behaved in their classrooms and are the ones who are NOT spanked.

 

[brockash]

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better! You know what "disgusts" me. A child who is not disciplined at all!!!! That is outrageous!!!!! Trust me In most cases the children whom the principal has to spank see NO form of discipline at home spanking or otherwise!!!

Really, so you're telling me that all children that are spanked are better behaved than all children that are not? That's a very ignorant statement. Spanking is an easy way out, and accomplishes nothing long term; except fear of you (way to go- you're bigger than a child ) I've seen many children who don't have any discipline, and they are brats; I've also seen many children who are spanked- also brats, except when they're in fear of the person that spanks them, and they're present. Parents/teachers ect. need to take the time to follow through on actual making a difference discipline, not just take the easy way out by doing nothing or spanking.