Down Syndrome child, corporal punishment & school.. need input.. long

[goofy!]

Woops goofy! I meant to say that if the child had a full time aide they were probably significantly delayed. Going back to edit that one now.

No worries.

Although, not to beat up on you, but having a full time aide also does not necessarily indicate cognitive ability. I am only adding this because one of the frustrations of parents of children with Down syndrome is that so many advances have been made in recent years, yet the textbooks, the professors and even the medical community haven't always kept up. Our local Down syndrome organization often goes out and lectures in the medical schools to help new docs know the latest and greatest. We tell new parents to not pick up a book or an article that is more than 5 - 10 years old because it will be completely out of date.

My daughter is one of the lucky ones who has a mild cognitive delay. However, she always had an aide with her due to having to modify the curriculum in her inclusive classes. In her younger years, she had a full time aide and later in middle and high school, just a few hours a week. Also, due to the low tone inherent with Down syndrome, an aide was provided to help with the writing and to carry out the PT and OT's instructions.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

No worries.

Although, not to beat up on you, but having a full time aide also does not necessarily indicate cognitive ability.

My daughter is one of the lucky ones who has a mild cognitive delay. However, she always had an aide with her due to having to modify the curriculum in her inclusive classes. In her younger years, she had a full time aide and later in middle and high school, just a few hours a week. Also, due to the low tone inherent with Down syndrome, an aide was provided to help with the writing and to carry out the PT and OT's instructions.

Yeah, every school system is different. In the schools around here, it takes quite a lot to have full time aide. That's why I said "chances are". Aides are expensive, so a lot of schools will do whatever they can to avoid it if possible, so they tend to be reserved for kids on the more severe end of the spectrum. Of course, there are always exceptions. And yes, aides are often provided for physical issues as well (a child in a wheelchair needing help navingating, getting into a locker, etc.)

 

[BelleBoo&AmisMum]

I don't see why people are so bent aganist corporal punishment?? My whole generation got spankings when I was in school when they needed it and no was worse for it. It usually only takes once to get a swat at school and you learn quick to act right.

I am the same age as you and was NEVER spanked in school, nor did I ever hear of anyone being spanked in school. They would still be removing my mother from the ceiling.

I am absolutely disgusted that this is still allowed in schools. There is no reason for a school to be hitting a child - ever.

 

[freepixie]

For instance, I teach a student with autism and we use toe touches or putting shaving cream on his hand as a punishment. He finds it aversive much as a neurotypical child would find time out aversive.

You do realize that both those examples are physical aversives and the toe touches are a form of corporal punishment as well? I truly hope they're a part of an approved behavior plan that came from a functional behavior assessment. I have a real hard time with the shaving cream one. I have to assume that the child in question has a form of sensory integration disorder. You should be working on helping him to overcome the disorder and not using it as a form of punishment. As you should know, to a child with sensory issues a hand full of shaving cream can feel like torture.

Yes, toe touches and the shaving cream I have major issues with too, not just for child with special needs but for any child. I would consider it torture, I seriously hope it is written in the child's IEP to do that, otherwise they really should reconsider the shaving cream thing. If you know the child has an aversion to touch, why would you force touch as a punishment? Its like forcing a picky child to eat broccoli as a punishment - they will never learn to like broccoli, that it would be considered bad and cause lifelong habits. Know what I mean?

We use shaving cream in Head Start to spread on the table to practice making letters, shapes, etc. If a child does not want to touch the shaving cream I will give the child a spoon or stick to manipulate the shaving cream. Then the next time we do the activity I will encourage the child to maybe use one finger, etc. etc. til you can get the child comfortable enough to touch it on their own. I just couldn't imagine using a handful of it as a punishment. Just seems cruel.

Sorry, but when you see where some of the kiddos come from they just don't deserve to be treated that way at school.

ETA: at Head Start we also do not use Time Outs - it goes against program standards for teaching young children. We do not punish - we redirect!

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

As I stated earlier: I have only seen the toe touches in action and this is not my classroom. I only know that this was okayed by the: teacher, parents, and the center for autism research that provides us with the program we use.

What else do you suggest? Standard punishments do not work on this student. Time out is reinforcing. Going to the office? He doesn't get it. Writing sentences? Not capable of it. Honestly, when I saw the toe touches in action, it seemed fine to me. He did them, stopped the behavior, and immediately got back to work. I've seen more drama over time out from a neurotypical child. I guess to me that is no different than having a kid run laps for misbehaving in a gym class.

 

[Totally Tink]

You do realize that both those examples are physical aversives and the toe touches are a form of corporal punishment as well? I truly hope they're a part of an approved behavior plan that came from a functional behavior assessment. I have a real hard time with the shaving cream one. I have to assume that the child in question has a form of sensory integration disorder. You should be working on helping him to overcome the disorder and not using it as a form of punishment. As you should know, to a child with sensory issues a hand full of shaving cream can feel like torture.[/QUOTE]


I COMPLETELY agree. I honestly read that part of the post over and over just to make sure I was understanding it correctly. I have a Special Education master's and am certified in LD, BD, MI and Autism. I teach students with moderate mental impairments and have two students with autism. I could not imagine taking my one little guy with autism and putting shaving cream on his hands. He would FLIP OUT. Way to make a kid trust you and feel like he's in a safe environment. What ever happened to positive reinforcement?

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

You do realize that both those examples are physical aversives and the toe touches are a form of corporal punishment as well? I truly hope they're a part of an approved behavior plan that came from a functional behavior assessment. I have a real hard time with the shaving cream one. I have to assume that the child in question has a form of sensory integration disorder. You should be working on helping him to overcome the disorder and not using it as a form of punishment. As you should know, to a child with sensory issues a hand full of shaving cream can feel like torture.[/QUOTE]


I COMPLETELY agree. I honestly read that part of the post over and over just to make sure I was understanding it correctly. I have a Special Education master's and am certified in LD, BD, MI and Autism. I teach students with moderate mental impairments and have two students with autism. I could not imagine taking my one little guy with autism and putting shaving cream on his hands. He would FLIP OUT. Way to make a kid trust you and feel like he's in a safe environment. What ever happened to positive reinforcement?

Okay, I will say it again, it was okayed by the autism researchers who work with us (and they are a well respected program). I only know that I was told that he does not flip out over it (I had the same reaction you did). That to him it is as aversive as a time out would be to a neurotypical child. I don't think they even do it often (I have yet to see it).

ETA: We DO use tons of positive reinforcement. The kid trusts his para explicitly and genuinely enjoys coming to school. However, there are some behaviors that have to be curbed. Particularly some violent and severely disruptive behaviors. From what I understand this was not done lightly.

 

[Totally Tink]

As I stated earlier: I have only seen the toe touches in action and this is not my classroom. I only know that this was okayed by the: teacher, parents, and the center for autism research that provides us with the program we use.

What else do you suggest? Standard punishments do not work on this student. Time out is reinforcing. Going to the office? He doesn't get it. Writing sentences? Not capable of it. Honestly, when I saw the toe touches in action, it seemed fine to me. He did them, stopped the behavior, and immediately got back to work. I've seen more drama over time out from a neurotypical child. I guess to me that is no different than having a kid run laps for misbehaving in a gym class.

The point is not to punish - it is to redirect and reinforce positively. Find something that has meaning to that child and have him EARN it. Believe me, it works 100% of the time. It's not a quick fix, but it is something that will work with consistency and hard work.

 

[tw1nsmom]

Okay, I will say it again, it was okayed by the autism researchers who work with us (and they are a well respected program). I only know that I was told that he does not flip out over it (I had the same reaction you did). That to him it is as aversive as a time out would be to a neurotypical child. I don't think they even do it often (I have yet to see it).

ETA: We DO use tons of positive reinforcement. The kid trusts his para explicitly and genuinely enjoys coming to school. However, there are some behaviors that have to be curbed. Particularly some violent and severely disruptive behaviors. From what I understand this was not done lightly.

IF the toe touches are not being used as an aversive but as a way to let the child let off steam physically that may be ok. I have seen where a child can't be focused and they let him go into the gym and run around with his aid and when they're done he was much happier and calmer. In no way was it a punishment though. Rather a redirection of energy.

But I'm sorry, the shaving cream thing is wrong. Just because a small group of "professionals" recommend it doesn't make it right. The laws in my state have changed recently. Do you want to know why? There was a residential school for autistic children that was paid for with tax dollars. Those "professionals" and "experts" decided that they would but shock vests on all the students. ALL the time. They gave pretty much anyone on staff the ability to shock the students for any reason. These kids were being tortured. A different residential school in this state had "experts" decide they could withhold food as an aversive. Multiple meals. There were multiple non-residential schools that used time-out rooms as a punishment. Only their time-out rooms were padded three by three closets with no windows. It was found that they were putting some children in those closets for up to 5 hours a day.

Just because an "expert' says it's ok doesn't make it moral or legal. Yes, it will work as an aversive, but you're also damaging a child.

 

[themilesfamily]

To the OP -- this made me sick. I would be upset if I saw someone hitting their dog, much a less a child, much less a Down's Syndrome child.

What kind of lessons are we teaching children when we hit them? That it's okay to hit and humiliate others? Not a real great lesson.

 

[MandM-Mom]

I never respond on these types of posts but this I had too!

This makes my stomach turn! I have 3 children, 2 without DS and my Baby Belle who has DS and I can tell you that it makes me mad for any of them, not to mention that I fear for what that child would get at home if Mom and Dad think its okay to be hit at school, school is suppose to be a positive experience, where is the positive is this, what is this teaching them??? Strangers can put there hands on me????

 

[MELSMICE]

I haven't read every response, but I just have to ask if this is for real. There are schools that actually think corporal punishment is OK? This is a joke, right?

 

[java]

When we were moving I checked out the whole Corporal punishment thing. Thankfully it's not an issue here. It really shocked me that it still went on.

I attended Catholic school and witnessed kids getting hit with rulers and being choked by their ties. (I have a vivid funny memory of a nun grabbing Thomas in 5th grade by the tie to pull him and it was a clip on and she went flying! )

I would not send my kids to a place that has corporal punishment. I don't believe in spanking so if I don't do it at home no way no how is someone else going to do it to my child.
Let alone a Down's syndrome child. Do you have to sign some kind of release for that? Like that you will allow the corporal punishment?
Oh and I have too big a mouth to have not done something when it was occuring. I would have put a stop to it. Much to the dismay of my children. But no way.

I would be calling the parents of the child and telling them what I witnessed too.

 

[phragmipedium]

Holy moly. I had no idea that this was allowed in public schools anywhere in this country anymore. How awful and archaic!

"Opting out" would be nowhere near enough for me. Nor would "opting in," which would at least be a more accurate way to ascertain that a parent was really okay with this practice (what happens if the student forgets to bring home the "opt out" form? Or it's lost? Or misfiled?) I would sooner homeschool my child than allow them to be in an environment where they see from example that it's okay for authority figures to discipline by laying hands on students. Disciplinary spanking by a parent is one (controversial enough) thing and is at the discretion of the parent. I do not believe it should be anyone else's option, whether opted into or not, to physically discipline a student. There are modern ways to discipline that actually help the student understand what they did wrong without invading physical space and inflicting pain/embarassment - and if a parent believes the child didn't get enough punishment at school, then they could deal with it at home. I expect school to educate children, not parent them. For heaven's sake! I'm not even touching the statistics that show it's disproportionately used on minority/special needs students...it's wrong for any student in my opinion. Every student should feel safe at school, and know that it's a place where they do not need to fear a spanking, or worse.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Contact your local Arc (used to be known as Association of Retarded Citizens). Also the state's education department and the department responsible for services to kids with disabilities.

I know of no reputable organization associated with education of kids with retardation that condones corporal punishment.

 

[Disneyadore]

FWIW.
I just would like to warn you before you open a real can of worms.
We walked in a similar kind of shoes and we paid a very high price better said our son did.

Please think about your own children. They have to attend this school maybe for several years?
In one way ore the other your children will pay the price for the crusade you are considering.
I’m not for spanking and certainly not fore disabled children but you just can’t save the whole world.

 

[Briarmom]

FWIW.
I just would like to warn you before you open a real can of worms.
We walked in a similar kind of shoes and we paid a very high price better said our son did.

Please think about your own children. They have to attend this school maybe for several years?
In one way ore the other your children will pay the price for the crusade you are considering.
I’m not for spanking and certainly not fore disabled children but you just can’t save the whole world.

Thank God not everyone feels this way.

If anyone EVER thought of spanking my children, their internal organs would be ripped out of their body.
I cannot believe that this is still allowed.

 

[Disneyadore]

Thank God not everyone feels this way.

If anyone EVER thought of spanking my children, their internal organs would be ripped out of their body.
I cannot believe that this is still allowed.

Did you ever walked in this shoes ?

Edit. I just see your from Belgium. In Belgium its also common that children are spanked.

 

[Briarmom]

Did you ever walked in this shoes ?

Edit. I just see your from Belgium. In Belgium its also common that children are spanked.

I am not from Belgium. I live in Belgium. I'm an American.
I am not sure what 'this shoes' means.

These shoes? Is that what you meant? I would not allow anyone to put a finger on my children. Period.

 

[Disneyadore]

I am not from Belgium. I live in Belgium. I'm an American.
I am not sure what 'this shoes' means.

These shoes? Is that what you meant? I would not allow anyone to put a finger on my children. Period.

This is not a personnel attack towards you. .
Pleas excuse me if it seems that way.

By this shoes I mean walking the road were you tried to "speak up and save" a child from others parents.

As said the school did not like it.
The child we did try to speak up for was removed from the school. He was not welcome any longer and we had to remove our child because he was "the one whose parents interfered with the school internal rules".

Our child was bullied for almost two years by the school staff.
It was that sneaky way of bullying a child.

"oh no we can't take about that because your parents will go to the school council, be quit, ore ..... will tell his parents and than they will come with the police" and so on and on.
Looking back, we accomplished nothing for nobody.