Dow: 6726

[PeterPan09]

Nope - my solution is to let it play itself out....... a lot of people feel that way.

until they or someone they care about gets laid off, loses a home or has a medical emergency....

 

[sbell111]

Stuart Varney listed the three people responsible for ruining the economy and the market;
1. Obama
2. Tim Geithner. He has had no plan and no statement for 20 days.
3. Paul Volcker. He has said nothing, and given his past history, Varney feels that Volcker has been marginalized and pushed out of his inner circle.

Varney described himself as a "refugee" of the socialized medicine that Obama is heading for. "You wouldn't want it".

Are you sure????

That's like saying that Fox News doesn't like Obama. Surely, that can't be true.

 

[minnie61650]

. And then there is the local impact on taxes that aren't being paid to the municipalities, the state, etc.

I know all too well about the local impact on taxes that aren't being paid to the municipalities, the state, etc.

I have mentioned it numerous times on threads I have have posted on the DIS board.

In case you are unaware Michigan has been in a recession for 8 years.

Pesident Bush and the rest of the country seemed to choose to ignore our problems. I guess they forgot that is usually Michigan who suffers a recession before it hits the rest of the country.

I posted this in December of 2008.
Since then our unemployment rate has risen.


For 8 long years Michigan has been in a recession.


Over the last several years the Detroit 3 have been downsizing. Many thousands of auto employees were let go. Some were given early retirements others were laid off.
As a result Michigan's job loss is the longest since the Great Depression.

Here is an article that supports my claim:

Michigan's job-loss streak is the longest since Great Depression and that title was taken from an article which was written in Nov. 2006.

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=1069

Nov. 17, 2006

Michigan's job-loss streak is the longest since Great Depression

ANN ARBOR, Mich.—Michigan has endured six straight years of job losses and the next two years will see even more—the longest stretch of employment loss in the state since the Great Depression, say University of Michigan economists.


Since mid-2000 to the end of this year, the state will have lost 336,000 jobs and it will lose another 33,000 jobs in the next two years, they say. Most of these losses are in manufacturing.

Moreover, unemployment in Michigan is projected to rise from an average of 6.8 percent this year to 7.5 percent next year and 7.7 percent in 2008—the highest rates since 1992.

Our unemployment was 8.5% in May of 2008. By October 2008 our employment was 9.3%.

In November2008 our unemployment rose to 9.6%

Link: http://www.bls.gov/EAG/eag.mi.htm

Many, many small businesses and local stores as well as many chains have closed.
Many of shopping centers have vacant stores. Many of our neighborhoods have vacant homes.

Cutbacks of many of our State services have taken place :



From this article:

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/articles/1697311-Police-cutbacks-rock-Michigan/

Police cutbacks rock Michigan

By Tim Martin
The Associated Press

May 21, 2008
DETROIT — Michigan's law enforcement agencies are fighting crime with about 1,800 fewer police officers than in 2001, and the consequences are showing up on city streets and country highways.

Violent crime is up in some areas, but arrests are down in part because police departments — with about 21,300 positions statewide, an 8 percent drop — can't keep up with the increased workload. During the same time frame, the state's population has stayed roughly the same.


The cuts have been most severe in many of the state's largest cities and smallest towns, according to data from the Michigan Commission on Law Enforcement Standards.

Citizens sometimes wait hours for an officer to respond to a property crime and more state highways go unpatrolled for long stretches at night. Support staff has been slashed, too, so police officers working high priority cases sometimes face a tougher time getting experts who can help build cases by giving polygraph tests or investigating questionable fires.

State crime labs often have a four-to-six month turnaround time on DNA evidence found at crime scenes, and it takes a few months longer in some cases. It's a shorter average delay than a few years ago but still long enough to leave many investigations that rely on forensic evidence hanging.

The state's 16 law enforcement agencies that employ 100 or more officers collectively have lost 15 percent of their law enforcement positions since 2001, according to the Michigan Commission on Law Enforcement Standards.

Some cities are looking at cutting police staffs even further as local governments struggle to pay for patrols. Tight tax revenues - caused in part by Michigan's long-struggling economy - are blamed for police layoffs from southeast Michigan's big cities to small, rural communities in the Upper Peninsula.

"We're stretched thin," said Sheriff Brian McLean of Houghton County, which pokes north into Lake Superior. "A lot of criminals, the halfway bright ones anyway, are realizing that."..........

Here is an article about Michigan's troubled schools:

Thursday, February 1, 2007
State cuts could push 20% of school districts into the red

Jennifer Mrozowski / The Detroit News

Nearly one-fifth of Michigan's school districts could be in deficit by the school year's end if the state cuts per-pupil funding by $224, according to a survey by the Michigan School Business Officials.

The statewide organization, which represents more than 1,800 school business officials, surveyed districts this month.

It found that about 120 districts would fall into deficit if cuts are made to address a state shortfall of about $1 billion this year.


"Part of the frustration is that here we are in the middle of the school year, trying to educate kids and now we have to focus on cuts," said Tom White, executive director of the Lansing-based association.

If a district falls into deficit, it has to create a reduction plan outlining how to eliminate the shortfall. Districts in deficit often face teacher lay-offs, higher pay-to-play fees, larger class sizes or less money for programs.

White said his office sent surveys to the state's 524 K-12 public districts and some charters.

Richard Witkowski, superintendent for Garden City Schools, said his district ended the 2005-06 year with a $1.3 million deficit. The 5,400-student district's budget for this year is $46 million.

Since 2001, the school system has closed a middle school, privatized food and custodial services, reduced administrative and clerical staff and cut ninth-grade sports and elementary band.

"Trying to cut back another $1.1 million would be devastating to our district," Witkowski said. <snip>



The survey also found that if there is no increase in the foundation allowance for the 2007-08 year, 28 percent, or 168 districts, would be in deficit. In addition, 53 percent -- 318 districts -- would cut their workforce by five percent or more and 70 percent, or 420 districts, would reduce programs for students.

Hildy Corbett, spokeswoman for Utica Community Schools, said the reduction in per-pupil aid could mean cutting $6 million from the district's $255 million budget.

The school system has been chipping away at its fund equity for the last four years, and has already had a series of layoffs that trimmed more than 60 staff members, including teachers. The 30,000-student system also closed a building that was being used for preschool.

"At this point, we don't have a plan to deal with any additional reductions," Corbett said. "We're still crying the cry that we need stable revenue for districts and children."

The system is weighing all options, she said.

In Detroit Public Schools, the per-pupil reduction could mean a loss of around $20 million, said Dori Freelain, the district's chief financial officer. The system already is trying to eliminate a $200 million deficit.

"We would be in a very severe situation," Freelain said. She could not say what areas the district would cut. But the system doesn't have much leeway with staffing because of employment and labor contracts and because the cuts would not be in response to a greater decline in enrollment, she said.

"It would generally mean we would take a hard look at current spending and place some serious controls on spending patterns and spending levels by year's end," Freelain said.

You can reach Jennifer Mrozowski at (313) 222-2269 or jmrozowski@detnews.com.

From the Govenor's FAQ website:

http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,1607,7-168--81249--,00.html

Frequently Asked Questions About the Budget

How large is the budget deficit and why do we have another deficit after the Governor just cut $1 billion from the current budget?

Answer: The budget deficit in the General Fund and the School Aid Fund combined is currently about $920 million. Yes, the Governor just recently approved budget cuts for the current fiscal year that totaled more than $1 billion. The main problem is that the current budget was written based on economic forecasts that showed the nation rebounding from the current economic slump sooner. The country still has not recovered, and Michigan’s manufacturing-based economy is still suffering. Michigan has lost more than 300,000 jobs since 2000, including 170,000 manufacturing jobs.

When workers lose their jobs, the state loses funds from two important sources of revenue – the income tax and the sales tax.

 

[Amii]

until they or someone they care about gets laid off, loses a home or has a medical emergency....

There have always been people who have been laid off, had medical emergencies or lost their homes. There was never concern for them to be bailed out before. Life is tough for everyone at some point. People have to deal with what life gives them and make the best of it.

 

[sbell111]

Look at one segment of the economy; Travel. Businesses and banks conduct meetings at convention centers, resorts, and yes, in Las Vegas. Even companies that are doing well are afraid of being maligned by the Obama/democrat party admonition to 'scale back' and eliminate "wasteful entertainment/travel. Who is hurt by that? Consider the airlines, flight attendents, ground crews, baggage handlers, hotels, cooks, housekeepers, wait staff, suppliers, transportation crew. The list is endless. The result is a catatrophic avalanche of unintended consequences. And then there is the local impact on taxes that aren't being paid to the municipalities, the state, etc.

So your basically saying that it is improper to tell people to be responsible with shareholder funds. Really? Wasteful is better?

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Nope - my solution is to let it play itself out....... a lot of people feel that way.

Not the majority on Wall Street, I can promise you that.

Market cap's been hemorrhaging for over 2 years, people are still sitting on long stock positions, 401ks, retirement accounts, mutual funds, investment fund that are down over 50% and still hoping something good will happen, and some want to turn this into a game of political football. Honestly...the spirit of this entire discussion is downright silly.

 

[sbell111]

Once the cannon ball starts rolling down hill it's hard to stop it.

I like the cheese analogy better:

 

[PeterPan09]

There have always been people who have been laid off, had medical emergencies or lost their homes. There was never concern for them to be bailed out before. Life is tough for everyone at some point. People have to deal with what life gives them and make the best of it.

My hope is that we're starting to realize that we as a nation are only as strong as our weakest link, that how we treat those who have fallen on hard times says more about us than it does about them.

I remember reading a quote during the Reagan era that the sign of the times was a "closed fist signifying "I've got MINE". My hope is that the closed fist is beginning to open into a hand reaching out to help others.

But then...I'm kind of an optimist. I like to believe the best about people until they prove otherwise.

 

[DawnCt1]

So your basically saying that it is improper to tell people to be responsible with shareholder funds. Really? Wasteful is better?

What is improper is to micromanage how companies do business. Some businesses depend upon entertaining clients, providing seminars for cash, etc.

 

[ntsammy5]

Not the majority on Wall Street,

You mean some of the people who caused this in the first place? I think we should indict all the rating agencies - not everything is investment grade like they rated it -

 

[Geoff_M]

I know all too well about the local impact on taxes that aren't being paid to the municipalities, the state, etc.

I have mentioned it numerous times on threads I have have posted on the DIS board.

In case you are unaware Michigan has been in a recession for 8 years.

Pesident Bush and the rest of the country seemed to choose to ignore our problems. I guess they forgot that is usually Michigan who suffers a recession before it hits the rest of the country.

I posted this in December of 2008.
Since then our unemployment rate has risen.


For 8 long years Michigan has been in a recession.


Over the last several years the Detroit 3 have been downsizing. Many thousands of auto employees were let go. Some were given early retirements others were laid off.
As a result Michigan's job loss is the longest since the Great Depression.

Here is an article that supports my claim:

Michigan's job-loss streak is the longest since Great Depression and that title was taken from an article which was written in Nov. 2006.

It hasn't helped that we've had an extremely ineffective Governor during the last two terms either. It's her primary job, and not Washington's, to manage the economy of the state. Sure, we've been sucked in deeper the last couple of years due to the national problems, but Granholm has done little since day one. Here biggest claim to fame was when she went after gas stations for post-9/11 price gouging as AG... and that was about it.

But she loves her "corridor" ideas...

 

[sbell111]

What is improper is to micromanage how companies do business. Some businesses depend upon entertaining clients, providing seminars for cash, etc.

That's all well and good, until the abuse reaches a certain point, then it's time to clear the pool.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

That's all well and good, until the abuse reaches a certain point, then it's time to clear the pool.

And the only way to do that is to let them fail. Giving these companies money is beyond foolish. Let the bad companies and bad leaders fail. Let the next generation buy up their assets and take over.

 

[DawnCt1]

That's all well and good, until the abuse reaches a certain point, then it's time to clear the pool.

As the shareholders and the board of directors did with Eisner.

 

[Amii]

My hope is that we're starting to realize that we as a nation are only as strong as our weakest link, that how we treat those who have fallen on hard times says more about us than it does about them.

I remember reading a quote during the Reagan era that the sign of the times was a "closed fist signifying "I've got MINE". My hope is that the closed fist is beginning to open into a hand reaching out to help others.

But then...I'm kind of an optimist. I like to believe the best about people until they prove otherwise.

We (American citizens) are not beginning to open their hands and help people. If that were true they would be helping each other out and there would be no need for bail outs. The government is telling us that we are going to help out and deciding who we are going to help out. How about a little character and personal responsibility?

 

[DisneyMomOK]

until they or someone they care about gets laid off, loses a home or has a medical emergency....

Who gave a flip when the textile industry in this country was being decimated? Oh yeah, that was just a bunch of poor hicks in the South, so no one cared that we lost an entire industry. Unfortunately, we have forgotten that a country must have a diverse manufacturing base to support a large middle class. It is apparent the current administration is even more oblivious to that fact than the last.

 

[sbell111]

We (American citizens) are not beginning to open their hands and help people. If that were true they would be helping each other out and there would be no need for bail outs. The government is telling us that we are going to help out and deciding who we are going to help out. How about a little character and personal responsibility?

Is your argument really that because individuals are not sufficiently helping each other out that the government should not do it? It seems like that should be the argument for the government helping out.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

And the only way to do that is to let them fail. Giving these companies money is beyond foolish. Let the bad companies and bad leaders fail. Let the next generation buy up their assets and take over.

And that's what's so pathetic about the resident righties pointing to the plunging Dow and wagging the finger at Obama. If he came out and said, "Sorry Wall Street, we're going to let you fail" yesterday, the market would be at about 3500 right now. It seems they want stock gains and no governmental intervention at the same time. That's simply living a pipe dream.

 

[PeterPan09]

And that's what's so pathetic about the resident righties pointing to the plunging Dow and wagging the finger at Obama. If he came out and said, "Sorry Wall Street, we're going to let you fail" yesterday, the market would be at about 3500 right now. It seems they want stock gains and no governmental intervention at the same time. That's simply living a pipe dream.

Oh, they want government intervention alright-as long as the government helps the "right" people.....

 

[DVCKennyD]

And the only way to do that is to let them fail. Giving these companies money is beyond foolish. Let the bad companies and bad leaders fail. Let the next generation buy up their assets and take over.

YES!!! We have a winner.

The basic problem as it exists today, is that the rules of the game keep changing. Buyers(and there are people out there) and sellers of these so called "toxic and illiquid" assets simply can't agree on a price. Why would I as a seller of these assets accept an undervalued (IMO) offer from a buyer, say .50 on the dollar, if I thought for a minute that a "government rescue" on the order of .70 or .80 was on the horizon??

Simple solution is for government(Geithner and Obama) to announce the "rules" of the game, give it a firm date before any changes can occur in said rules, say 18 to 24 months, and then get the hell out of the way!

All of a sudden, that offer of .50 on the dollar doesn't look so bad if I don't have a reasonable expectation that the Fed will swoop in on a white horse offering more.

Check out this video:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/802-Illiquid-Assets-The-Truth.html

KennyD