Dog Experts - Am I crazy for buying a CKC instead of an AKC puppy? UPDATE - New ?'s!!

[FayeW]

Wendy, you've mentioned your cat several times and I know that it is a real concern for you that the dog and cat won't get along. Stop worrying...they will work it out!

I say this is a pet owner who currently has 2 dogs and 2 cats, and I have had two dogs and one cat previously..they didn't all come at once. There is an adjustment period with all of the pets every time a new pet comes into the home, but they will figure it out. I have brought a kitten into a home with an adult dog, puppies into a home with adult cats, and adult cats adopted from the shelter (twice) into a home with adult dogs. It will take time, the dog will chase the cat, the cat will scratch the dog...but they will figure it out.

Whether you ultimately choose to get a puppy (which I don't particularily recommend for you, BTW) or a younger dog from an animal shelter you have to keep your expectations LOW for the cat/dog interaction in the beginning. The puppy/cat relationship would actually be easier, but given your parents' history of getting rid of dogs for bogus reasons, I don't think that having a puppy and a toddler are a good mix for you.

I understand that you are NOT your mother, but puppies will nip and scratch ... it's what they do. The puppy will teethe and he will bite and chew things just like your toddler did when he was teething. Small children need more training with puppies than the puppies do...they need to be taught to respect the dog's personal space. More than once, our dogs (when they were puppies) nipped the kids and in every circumstance, it was their own darn fault! Dogs cannot speak, they cannot verbalize when they are tired or unhappy or not feeling well. The only way they can communicate or explore their world is with their mouths. Just be prepared, educate yourself, and don't overreact.

I love my dogs and my cats, they are all important members of the family. Good luck in your decision.

 

[frostywolf]

There have been a lot of valid concerns in this thread, and you have addressed them OP. So if you really think you are ready for a Keeshond puppy, here are some things to look for in a breeder.

I am not a person that necessarily says that dogs must be shown in conformation (show ring) to a championship before breeding. But that's because my breed of choice is not an AKC breed, and I am more interested in the dog's working ability. So in my breed (Jack Russell Terriers) I am not looking for show titles, but working titles. For Keeshonden, though, conformation titles are your best bet.

The reason that many posters are saying the dogs should be shown, is because that is what conformation's original purpose is. To evaluate potential breeding stock. People that are breeding for show are constantly trying to improve their lines. And they don't breed any two champions together, willy-nilly. They have a dog they want to breed. They then try to find a dog that will complement the dog's natural strengths and with the aim to improve on the structural areas the dog is weakest.

What is also incredibly important, and this is what I would want to know about the breeder you are considering, is inheritable health risks. Each breed is prone to certain health conditions. If I were considering a Keeshond, I would want BOTH parents to have the following testing, or by descent been proven to be clear of the following issues:

Hips - the breeder should have both parents hips evaluated by either OFA or PennHIP. I personally would only get a pup from parents that are either Excellent or Good (OFA - most common). If PennHIP - the higher the percentile on the laxity evaluation the better.

Elbows - elbows on the parents should be x-rayed and evaluated as normal

Eyes - should be CERF tested and have come back normal

Patellas - evaluated on parents as normal

Thyroid - normal

PHPT - this is a genetic disease in Keeshonden. Parents should be tested to show they do not carry the gene for this disease.

If you ensure that the parents are free of health issues, the more likely it is that you will end up with a healthy puppy. Nothing is more heartbreaking to me than seeing a family find out that their puppy is dysplastic, or has a genetic health issue that will cut short it's life or affect the quality of it's life.

 

[goofy!]

There have been a lot of valid concerns in this thread, and you have addressed them OP. So if you really think you are ready for a Keeshond puppy, here are some things to look for in a breeder.

I am not a person that necessarily says that dogs must be shown in conformation (show ring) to a championship before breeding. But that's because my breed of choice is not an AKC breed, and I am more interested in the dog's working ability. So in my breed (Jack Russell Terriers) I am not looking for show titles, but working titles. For Keeshonden, though, conformation titles are your best bet.

The reason that many posters are saying the dogs should be shown, is because that is what conformation's original purpose is. To evaluate potential breeding stock. People that are breeding for show are constantly trying to improve their lines. And they don't breed any two champions together, willy-nilly. They have a dog they want to breed. They then try to find a dog that will complement the dog's natural strengths and with the aim to improve on the structural areas the dog is weakest.

What is also incredibly important, and this is what I would want to know about the breeder you are considering, is inheritable health risks. Each breed is prone to certain health conditions. If I were considering a Keeshond, I would want BOTH parents to have the following testing, or by descent been proven to be clear of the following issues:

Hips - the breeder should have both parents hips evaluated by either OFA or PennHIP. I personally would only get a pup from parents that are either Excellent or Good (OFA - most common). If PennHIP - the higher the percentile on the laxity evaluation the better.

Elbows - elbows on the parents should be x-rayed and evaluated as normal

Eyes - should be CERF tested and have come back normal

Patellas - evaluated on parents as normal

Thyroid - normal

PHPT - this is a genetic disease in Keeshonden. Parents should be tested to show they do not carry the gene for this disease.

If you ensure that the parents are free of health issues, the more likely it is that you will end up with a healthy puppy. Nothing is more heartbreaking to me than seeing a family find out that their puppy is dysplastic, or has a genetic health issue that will cut short it's life or affect the quality of it's life.

These are all excellent health screenings to ask your breeder if they have done them. And just don't accept an answer - ask to see the official results. . If your breeder is not doing the expensive health screenings - run, don't walk. Only a reputable breeder will shell out the money for health screenings to make sure that they are not perpetuating genetic diseases.

The other thing you must ask is if your breeder does a puppy temperament test. The pups should be temperament tested and the breeder should help fit the best puppy for your lifestyle.

I have always found that a well-bred dog from a reputable breeder is ALWAYS less expensive than a back yard breeder, as the reputable breeder is not breeding for profit. They are usually breeding to get their next show dog and will usually have some pet quality pups in the litter. Our breeder always says that if you are making money on the litter, you are not doing things right (not enough prenatal care, not enough health screenings, puppies priced to high) A good breeder is more concerned about the home the puppy will go to rather than the money they are making off the puppy.

Have you contacted the Keeshond Club of America? They have a list of reputable breeders that you can contact. You should pick their brain and they should pick yours.

So...

If your breeder has not done extensive health screenings - run.

If your breeder cannot tell you if PHPT runs anywhere in any of the past lineage - REALLY run.

If your breeder does not require a spay/neuter contract - run.

If your breeder cannot tell you what temperament lines are running in their dogs - run. You admit you are a bit lazy. You do not want to end up with the alpha puppy in the litter.

If the breeder does not stipulate that they have 1st right of refusal if you need to return the dog - run. (All reputable breeders will remain responsible for the puppies they put on the ground for their lives. The breeder should insist that if you ever find yourself in a position to have to get rid of the dog, that you return it to them.)

The breeder should be breeding for the betterment of the breed. Ask your breeder how this particular pairing of dogs betters the breed.

If your breeder does not screen you, just accepts your check - run.


Hint: Our neighbor wanted a schnauzer. She paid a horrendous amount for a dog that was CKC registered. She was also under the impression that the more they paid the better the dog.

Dog is an obvious mutt and has health problems up the yazoo, including juvenile cataracts (something the parents should have been cerfed for) which costs them $$$$ for specialized canine opthomologists.

If they had just gone to a reputable breeder, they would have paid less for their puppy, and most likely had a much healthier pup.

 

[marie1203]

I think there has been good advice in this thread. Dogs are a lot of work and puppies are double that. I have 5 dogs (ours), we run a small rescue, growing up we always have more than one dog and my brother breed german shepherd for police and such training. The best advice I can give you no well breed dog or good breeder is going to be a cheap dog, no good breeder is going to just hand you a puppy. Just because a dog is register doesn't mean it came from a good background our only register dog is a puppy mill dog. I contacted AKC and they did nothing to the breeder they didn't care at all, so please do not go by that when picking a dog. Based on everything you have posted a Collie will be a great fit except for their hair. As many have said before I would not recommend a puppy. I really think you should look into rescues where the dog is pass the puppy stage. You can find rescues of every breed if you do your research you will find which rescue might fit you better. There is a huge difference between a puppy and a dog that is a year or older in the behavior and the amount of time they take.

 

[SandrA9810]

Truthfully, all "purebreds" are mutts. People decided they wanted a characteristic of one breed with one of another and mated them till they got the "look" they wanted, or purpose or what have you.

Most "healthy" dogs are going to be your overall mutt. There's usually some hereditary issues that come with a purebred. And even the right mutt can have the characteristics you're looking for.

I honestly had no idea what I was getting myself into when I got my first dog, Kiani. But I've always loved animals, and I would never give one up. Didn't even spend 2 minutes at the shelter before Kari said "that's the one". Signed the papers, handed over the cash, and took her home. I still remember that first day. I put that leash and collar on her, and she was like "ok, I'm yours now". She jumped in the backseat, sat there perfectly quite the whole ride, and turned out to be the greatest dog in the world.

You also really need to learn your breeds going to a shelter, they hardly ever get them right past a pit bull. Kiani was listed as an american eskimo, but didn't fit the temperament at all. After some research, she fit the Samoyed temperament to a T, but she wasn't quite a purebred.

One other reason you might want to look at a rescue group, most the time their dogs are fostered. The foster parents can give you a lot more information on the dog's temperament than the breeder can. And it seems like you have certain expectations of how you want your dog to be able to mold into your family and lifestyle. Just like your kids, none of them are mini yous, they all have their own personalities and quirks. Just like a pup would. Plus rescues look at placing the right dog with the right family, and will be more willing to help you get the right breed.
I didn't have expectations of Kiani or needed her to fit into any sort of lifestyle. We just kind of rolled with the punches and figured things out.

 

[goofy!]

Truthfully, all "purebreds" are mutts. People decided they wanted a characteristic of one breed with one of another and mated them till they got the "look" they wanted, or purpose or what have you.

Most "healthy" dogs are going to be your overall mutt. There's usually some hereditary issues that come with a purebred. And even the right mutt can have the characteristics you're looking for.

This is actually not true. Hybrid vigor is largely a myth. Perhaps at one time, before the popularity of large puppy mills it had some credence, but now, most mutts are the product of 2 very poorly bred adults.

Owners of the designer dog craze are starting to find this out. Because no reputable breeder will ever sell a puppy to an owner with the intention of creating designer dogs (that is why there are spay/neuter contracts), most designer dogs are the products of puppy mill dogs.

And if you breed two dogs that have a history hip dysplasia together, or two dogs with a history hyperparathyroidism together, you are going to have a much better chance of getting puppies with problems

As for most purebred dogs having hereditary issues, that is exactly why you go to a reputable breeder. Reputable breeders spend big bucks to test for as many diseases as possible. They research pedigrees to see what lines carry what and are careful to not double up on anything. Dogs are taken out of the breeding pool if something shows up in a litter.

So, no, your chances are much greater at getting a healthy puppy by going to a reputable breeder that has done their homework long before their first litter is on the ground.

I love mutts, they can make great, great dogs. However, to say they are healthier is a fallacy.

I honestly had no idea what I was getting myself into when I got my first dog, Kiani. But I've always loved animals, and I would never give one up. Didn't even spend 2 minutes at the shelter before Kari said "that's the one". Signed the papers, handed over the cash, and took her home. I still remember that first day. I put that leash and collar on her, and she was like "ok, I'm yours now". She jumped in the backseat, sat there perfectly quite the whole ride, and turned out to be the greatest dog in the world.

You also really need to learn your breeds going to a shelter, they hardly ever get them right past a pit bull. Kiani was listed as an american eskimo, but didn't fit the temperament at all. After some research, she fit the Samoyed temperament to a T, but she wasn't quite a purebred.

One other reason you might want to look at a rescue group, most the time their dogs are fostered. The foster parents can give you a lot more information on the dog's temperament than the breeder can. And it seems like you have certain expectations of how you want your dog to be able to mold into your family and lifestyle. Just like your kids, none of them are mini yous, they all have their own personalities and quirks. Just like a pup would. Plus rescues look at placing the right dog with the right family, and will be more willing to help you get the right breed.
I didn't have expectations of Kiani or needed her to fit into any sort of lifestyle. We just kind of rolled with the punches and figured things out.

I agree with the idea of a rescue. However, some rescues are very, very particular. With the OP's history and the fact that she has toddlers, getting a Keeshond from a rescue might be difficult. Not all rescues are the same, but many are getting more restrictive.

I don't agree with how particular many rescues have become, but I can see their point that they are trying to ensure a forever home for a dog that has already been given up once.

 

[Elianor]

This has been an interesting thread. I especially like the comments about questioning the breeder about the genetic issues and diseases tested for.

Although we got George through a German Shepherd rescue they were clear that he was a mixed breed. It took us a while to figure out what he was likely mixed with since most of his physical characteristics are GSD. We finally decided it was mostly likely Siberian husky.

I don't know many Keeshonden but they are very pretty dogs. If you are going to spend a serious amount on a dog...please please please make sure that at least some of that money is going toward the tests needed to ensure you are getting a healthy animal.

A friend recently bought a pug from a backyard breeder and has had alot of trouble with health problems that they never thought to ask about. The poor dog has been to the vet with all kinds of issues (including teeth problems).

You are doing well to research and check for the best options. Also, I've noticed that many of the GSD breeders here won't let a puppy go until it's 4 or 5 months old (not the 6 week old puppy you see in the papers so often).

 

[NaLisa]

I agree with the idea of a rescue. However, some rescues are very, very particular. With the OP's history and the fact that she has toddlers, getting a Keeshond from a rescue might be difficult. Not all rescues are the same, but many are getting more restrictive.

I don't agree with how particular many rescues have become, but I can see their point that they are trying to ensure a forever home for a dog that has already been given up once.

The rescue from which we got our dog was particular, but I viewed it as a good thing. We went to her place of business three times and she watched us (including my two young DDs) interact with the dog. She asked about our pet history and checked our references. She made a home visit and made sure we had puchased the items we would need. She checked to make sure our fence was secure. She provided six obedience lessons for me and my dog. She called after we had the dog for two months to make certain everything was still going OK.

She had also done her due diligence with the dog, which she had had for six months before we adopted her. She had nursed her back to health after a bout of heartworms and provided all necessary vaccinations and health exams. She knew the temperament of the dog.

I know a lot of people (including my DH) consider all that overkill, but we ended up with a perfect match and my family couldn't be happier with our dog. It was worth it, IMHO.

 

[goofy4tink]

I have really just scanned the last few pages of posts. But I just wanted to say one last thing...
having a dog, in real life, is nothing like what you see in the movies. I have always had a dog...well, pretty much always. And believe me...the vast majority of kids 'get over' having a dog quickly. My dd, 17, loves our dog, she truly does. BUT....it is not the relationship like Timmy and Lassie had!!
Having a dog is a life changing event. THey are not disposable. I'm just not sure you fully realize what you are getting into. And I would truly hate for you to be in the position of having to tell your children that the dog has to be given away because things just didn't work out. They are a lot of work.
And believe me....an older cat is not automatically going to adjust to a new dog. That is probably the worst combination. Yes, my dog and cats get along famously. But, the older cat was young when the dog arrived....and the younger cat got here after the dog...so not many issues.

Please, give this a lot of thought. Adding a dog to the family is a huge deal. And there is no way to be sure that any dog is going to meet all your requirements. All puppies bite, snap, chew, poop inside, jump on people. It takes a lot of training to get a puppy to grow into the kind of dog you want to have around. And being a big old softie isn't going to work. What will you do when that puppy bites, and he/she will, your youngest?? My dd, then 6, had a complete ring of holes around the hem of her nightie. Why??? Our puppy loved to try to grab the bottom of the nightie to get her to stop and play with him. And yes, sometimes he connected with skin!! Puppy teeth are very sharp. You have to be ready to be there, 24/7, ready to jump in and discipline the pup. Notice I didn't say punish...I said discipline. There is a big difference. Unless you are ready to undertake all this, then you are probably more suited to cats. Sometimes I wish I had only cats!!!

 

[daisax]

Truthfully, all "purebreds" are mutts. People decided they wanted a characteristic of one breed with one of another and mated them till they got the "look" they wanted, or purpose or what have you.

Dozens of generations and many thousands of puppies later, yes, you have a "new" breed - it's not a breed until it breeds true, until the puppies uniformly look and act like the breed description. A one time breeding of two dogs results in a mutt. Some very lovely animals, often, but they're not a new breed. Breed a lab to a poodle and you don't get a new breed called a labradoodle. You get a mixed breed dog with a fancy price tag that may look like a lab and act like a poodle, or look like a poodle and act like a lab, and have the genetic predisposition of diseases from each side of the family.

Most "healthy" dogs are going to be your overall mutt. There's usually some hereditary issues that come with a purebred.

As goofy pointed out, if you breed a golden retriever with hip dysplasia to a poodle with epilepsy, you don't end up with healthier puppies than two golden retrievers screened extensively for golden retriever diseases or two poodles screened extensively for poodle diseases. You just have more of a grab bag of possible maladies... and some diseases will be shared by both breeds and you'll be doubling up on them in a way you wouldn't if you were conscientiously documenting the health of each parent dog back 5-6 generations.

It's not that you COULDN"T conceivably do it conscientiously if you happened to have an exceptionally well constructed, healthy and good tempered Golden retriever and an equally exceptionally well constructed, healthy and good tempered poodle. But the people doing the "designer" breedings are not working with prime material to begin with and I would question how much health information going how far back they have on the parents. "The vet says they're real healthy" is not what you want to hear. As others have said, you want paperwork.

One other caveat about puppies and small children -- I tell people getting puppies that the puppy WILL destroy something of great sentimental value to you. They almost always do -- rip/stain grandma's quilt, pull a pack of photographic negatives off the counter and chew them (okay, not so much any more, but that happened to me and they were the last photos I had of one of my dogs). But with kids in the house, they will chew Barbie dolls, action figures... you name it. And as much as you tell your kids that it's their fault for not putting toys away, a four year old who is freaking out because Fluffy ate the legs or head off their favorite toy is hard to console, and harder to convince not to blame the dog.

Of course a lot can be prevented with supervision, but children's toys can be quite small, and dogs can grab them from under the sofa and other places in a flash. I will say from extensive experience that crayons make for parti-colored dog poop.

And surgery to take a toy from a dog's stomach is not cheap, so that's another consideration.

 

[Wendy31]

I found my dog through a rescue organization that did personality profiles on it's dogs and then registered them on petfinder.com. He is a German Shepherd mix, solid black and about 75 pounds. He has turned out to be both blessing and challenge to our family.

He was the same age as our daughter when we got him (3) and they have romped all over the house together. When our son came along two years later, he would lay at the foot of his bouncy seat and across the doorway of the kids' bedroom "guarding" them. There have been wonderful moments like the ones you find in the movies (George pulling our daughter down this hill this past winter in the first snowfall for one!)

The nice thing is that although he has plenty of puppy attitude, he received enough basic training before he came to us that we were (as novice owners) able to build upon those skills to keep it working in our family.

George pulls madly on the leash so we've had to work around that. HE also barks in the middle of the night and wakes the entire household if a squirrel comes within 30 feet of the house. He has accidents during thunderstorms and I finally had to buy a carpet cleaner to deal what I have come to expect as an inevitable mess.

Rescue dogs don't have to have issues. You need to find someone who deals with dogs and knows how to profile them. George *loves* our cat, who is 17 years old and completely indifferent to him. It's about finding the right fit for your family and its possible to find a rescue in many breeds that fits your needs.

Have you also considered who will keep your dog when you decide to go back to Disney? We weren't able to travel for a while after we got George because he'd been abandoned and has separation issues (something that can happen in many puppies). Do you have a reputable kennel? Do you know where to have training classes for your dog?

We are a fairly laid back family too, but you have to be the alpha with a dog or you will not have a positive experience. Dogs are pack animals (not people) and their motivations to do things are different.

I think people who want dogs are the best ones to get them, but only if they are willing to really commit to what it will entail.

All in all, I am glad for our first time out, I got a slightly older dog with basic training already in place or we would have been regretting our decision within days...and in our family, pets are family until death do us part.

I have always really liked German Shepherds! And your story of your dog sleeping in front of your children's bedrooms is precious! And often what I envision for our dog! But, yes, I do realize that having a dog is not a storybook romance every day. Really, honestly, I do. And, in our family too, pets are with us until death us do part.

Thanks for clarifying. I hate to say it, but I think a hobby breeder and a back yard breeder are probably the same thing. Two-3 litters a year is A LOT. How many dams do they have on their property? Do they just keep breeding the same dogs over and over? They love the breed so much they want to flood the world with them? If not, what is it exactly that they "love?" What does that mean, they "know their dogs?"

To be clear, I'm not asking you the answers to these questions! I know you are researching, and these are the questions you should be asking yourself, to help detemine the legitmacy of your seller and the likelihood that you will ultimately get a healthy dog that's appropriate for you.

Jane

Edited to add - I have always had puppies and toddlers - it can happen and it not a problem for many breeders! My DS (now 12, almost 13) was about 7 months old when we got our second boxer, who died Halloween, 2009). That DS was about 2.5 when we got our other dog, a rescue pitbull. My DS now 3 was 2 when we got our current boxer. Everybody got potty trained without too much grief!

Thank you. Now, that I've posted, I've started thinking a lot more about the particular breeder I've found. I really do think she is a hobby breeder, but there are some things that concern me. I've asked her questions regarding AKC vs CKC & also what kind of health tests her puppies have. Not all of her answers have been reassuring.

But I'm thinking that our toddler will be okay with a puppy.

Oh, I don't really think anyone wants to make you feel bad! I guess, (at least for me) getting a dog was something I really really wanted for my kids too. I think people are just worried that you are making the choice based upon maybe how the dog looks or how you think the breed will be rather than looking for a dog that will be a good fit for your needs.

I personally wanted a corgi. I wanted a Pembroke welsh corgi puppy in a fawn and white coat. Sigh. I still want a corgi. But, I have kids and they are herding dogs that have a tendency to nip at heels. Also, I have a full time job and just am not home enough to puppy train.

George was in need of a foster home, so we fostered him for 2 months before adopting him formally. He came to us already tested out on cats and kids, and with all his shots and health tests. He was also housebroken.

We don't have a fenced yard either, so he gets three walks a day outdoors rain or shine. (Or snow, which the darn dog adores for some bizarre reason.)

Truthfully, I would have failed with a puppy. I dont' have the discipline to do the kind of intense training George must have had as a puppy to make him such a good dog now. I always recommend to people that they look at petfinder now because the search options can screen out animals that are not appropriate to your family's needs (cats, kids, etc.)

George might have been put down if we hadn't adopted him. He was already being housed at a shelter when I went and picked him up. Also, the organization we fostered him with did an interview and a house visit to check out me, the family, and the house before letting us take the dog. I also had to fill out an application, pay a fee and sign a contract.

It's just such a big commitment and since so many animals end up abandoned or families unhappy or resigned with poorly managed pets, people on the boards here are just trying to make sure you get the best result for your family!

Please don't let it hurt your feelings...if they didn't want a good outcome for you they wouldn't bother to respond at all!

Oh, I know no one is trying to make me feel bad. And I appreciate all the responses. Really!

Everyone's replies have made me do a lot of thinking & rethinking to make sure we are ready for a puppy.

And I have researched breeds - researching breeds was how I chose the Keeshonden. If I had not been researching, I would have chosen a lab or a golden retriever. Or would have one out and got the 1st shiba inu I saw (after the puppy cam)! But I've realized that those breeds aren't the best for our family. The Keeshonden have a really good family-oriented temperament, don't need a lot of outdoor-type exercise - although they're happy to be outside with us & go on walks. A Keeshond will play with my children, let my DD whisper secrets to him while brushing him, & then cuddle with me to watch TV on the couch.

OP, the puppy will nip at your toddler, you, and the other kids. A few of my friends had puppies recently, and even my kids were so done with them in 10 minutes - they're not fun! They hurt! Between the sharp teeth and the sharp nails, puppies and young children do not mix well. Sure, you train them not to bite and jump, but it takes time.

Puppies can't be left out of your sight for a minute, and you have to watch them even more than a toddler (because of housebreaking). What do you do when the puppy is barking in her crate in the middle of the night, waking up the todder?

The kids kept asking what kind of dog we were going to get, and I told them "a good dog," because breed was a lot less important to me than temperment.

I want a good dog too! And, yes, an older dog would probably be easier. But there's something about the puppy experience... I want that for our children. I want this puppy to grow here - with his forever family.

I want to echo the sentiments about a Beagle and share my family's experience. We adopted a 3-year-old female Beagle from a rescue group specializing in Beagles four years ago. After researching breeds, I was certain that we wanted a Beagle but I too thought I wanted a cute little puppy. My DDs were 4 & 2 at the time and my cat was 14. After getting all the details about my family, the woman who ran the rescue group suggested a young adult dog instead. She made a perfect match and we couldn't be happier. My children bonded with our doggie immediately and she with them. We can take her anywhere and she gets along with everyone, including dogs and cats. We didn't have to suffer through housetraining, chewing up things, etc. The woman we adopted her from also provided a free obedience course as part of the adoption.

I cannot imagine our family without our Beagle, but had I gotten a puppy or a different breed, I'm afraid our experience wouldn't have been such a great one.

You've received some great advice here and I hope you continue to research before making such an important decision.

I adore beagles!! If it weren't for their doggy odor, we would have a beagle!

Wendy, don't feel badly. You asked for opinions and people are trying to share their wisdom and knowledge with you to help you make a good decision. Nobody's been mean and nobody thinks you're a terrible person. And ultimately, it's up to you what you decide to do. I think that most, if not all of us, will be there later enjoying your pictures and helping you with whatever comes up. It's just a discussion!

Think of it this way. I don't know you but I do know you're a mother of three. So you've got plenty of parenting experience, right? What if someone came on here looking for advice on having a baby because she thinks babies are cute and fun, but had little to no experience with babies and a host of what most people would consider "red flags" to having a baby? What would you say? I imagine you'd tell them how much work babies are, how much they cost, how little time you have for yourself, etc, and maybe share that your gut sense is that they wait for the right time and the right resources, etc. It's essentially the same thing here for people with dog experience. That's all.

If you want to get a puppy, just know that you'll have your work cut out for you and there will come a day when you likely say, "now I know what they were talking about", lol. It doesn't make it wrong. If you go that route, just do yourself and the dog a favor by fully preparing by reading as much as you can and not letting the puppy run wild.

I brought my twins home from the hospital having two grown German Shepherds in the house who were great dogs but had very little kid experience. We made it work by having rules for everyone and complete vigilance when it came to both the dogs and the kids. My kids were NEVER allowed to disrespect the dogs, and vice versa. The dogs died and we got a puppy when the kids were 6. We tried to adopt a German Shepherd from a rescue, but, despite a lifetime of experience with the breed (including several puppies) and the ideal home, they would not adopt to us until the kids were 7, so we wound up with a puppy instead (she is in my signature).

All I can say is I worked my tail off keeping everyone safe and happy. I even remember once, about two weeks into it, thinking, "what have I done?" I was so overwhelmed. Even though my kids had grown up with two GSDs, we went over the rules ad nauseam, the vet read them the riot act about the dog, etc, kids will be kids and I often had to run interference so accidents didn't happen and bad habits didn't form (like running with and letting the puppy bite - a big no no). I literally had to teach the dog how to carry a soccer ball around in her mouth so she didn't nip (something herding dogs do with kids). It took literally years of training and hard work to get to the point where I was fairly certain nothing bad was going to happen (and I never count on that 100% as I firmly believe that any dog can bite given the right circumstances). She is actually more than wonderful with children. But had she been with someone else I'm fairly certain she may have wound up at the pound or tied in a back yard somewhere because of her reactive personality to other dogs (which, again, with years of training and desensitization has now calmed considerably, but again, very hard work and this was NOT apparent as a puppy).

It sure would have been a heck of a lot easier if we'd gotten the adult dog I'd wanted. I mean, I love my girl to pieces but man, she has given me a run for my money.

Thank you! I really, really, really do appreciate everyone's responses. I know that there alot of responsible dog expert DISsers, & that is why I came here. I don't think anyone has been mean at all. I'm reading everyone's replies & really thinking & considering.

(The only thing that is, perhaps, hurting my feelings a bit is the assumption that, because my parents got rid of our dogs growing up, that I will do the same thing.)

Honestly, if it were just me, I would be looking for a young adult dog, but I'm looking for a puppy for my children - which is, conversely, the reason why ya'll are telling me I need to find an older dog.

To clarify, a "hobby breeder" is generally someone who devotes a great deal of time to dogs as a hobby. Most of the folks at Westminster are hobby breeders. They have actual real life jobs, but on weekends they're at dog shows, the way some people are on the golf course. Weekday evenings they're training, or going to club meetings, just as other people are going to Rotary meetings or other social organizations.

They study pedigrees and have watched generations of dogs grow up over the years. They'll drive 800 miles to a show to see a dog that doesn't show in their area that might be a possible future choice as a stud dog for one of their girls. They'll already know and have seen that dog's parents and grandparents or at least spoken with people who have. They'll know what diseases tend to run in different families, and through extensive networking in person and through the internet will have an idea of who practices what they consider ethical breeding practices, including important health testing. They will have debated these issues ad nauseum.

A back yard breeder, on the other hand, is someone who says "Your dog wasn't neutered? My girl's in heat -- bring him over and I'll give you a free puppy!" Just throw 'em in the back yard and let nature take its course.

The confusion comes in because a hobby breeder typically doesn't have extensive kennels. Dogs usually live in the house and play in the yard. So you might not know how to distinguish a hobby breeder from a back yard breeder until you speak to them, and the hobby breeder will talk your ear off about the dogs and be able to answer any question you have... and will ask you a ton of questions. Money will be the least of it. A back yard breeder will just tell you how much.

Commercial breeders are those who breed dogs like livestock. There are back yard breeders who also breed too many dogs too close together for too many litters. And, sadly, there are hobby breeders who overbreed and breed carelessly, too. That's where doing homework comes in, and references from people who have puppies from the breeder you're interested in.

No decent breeder will just ship a puppy to a total stranger in exchange for a check or money order. You want to get a pup from a breeder who cares where that puppy goes, and feels an obligation to give it the best possible start in life, and will take it back at any point for the rest of its life.

This is how I'm understanding hobby vs. backyard breeders as well. This particular breeder w/ whom I've been in contact really seems to know her dogs - her dogs are raised in her house and appear very loved & well-socialized.

There are a few health-test related things that are concerning me though. Additionally, her price is about the same as an AKC puppy.

Wendy, have you looked into Keeshond rescue groups? There might be a waiting list, but they can match you with a dog that's a good fit for your life. I've done some work with the New England Sheltie Rescue and they're great. The only problem is that there aren't that many shelties to go around.

I've looked a little at Keeshond rescue groups but I haven't really found anything.

Look into a smooth collie. Collies make WONDERFUL family pets. they are not overly strong like the retievers and Shep. My 11 year can walk our collies yet her friend could never take her golden out for a walk by herself. PM me if youd like more info
Smooth collies are short hair collies

Actually, I did consider a smooth collie. If I remember correctly, the reason why I went w/ a Keeshond over a smooth collie was that smooth collies are harder to find.

Wendy, I don't know you and wouldn't hazard to guess that you would be a bad dog owner. I'm just going on what you've said about your past and what you want. The main thing to keep in mind is that no dog is perfect, they are all a lot of work and AKC, CKC, KFC, whatever the lineage is, there is no guarantee.

I understand wanting a dog NOW, you need to determine if now is what's best, or if waiting till the baby is out of diapers is best. Don't spread yourself too thin.

I wish you the best of luck both in choosing your pup and raising him/her.

Thank you!

Wendy, you've mentioned your cat several times and I know that it is a real concern for you that the dog and cat won't get along. Stop worrying...they will work it out!

I say this is a pet owner who currently has 2 dogs and 2 cats, and I have had two dogs and one cat previously..they didn't all come at once. There is an adjustment period with all of the pets every time a new pet comes into the home, but they will figure it out. I have brought a kitten into a home with an adult dog, puppies into a home with adult cats, and adult cats adopted from the shelter (twice) into a home with adult dogs. It will take time, the dog will chase the cat, the cat will scratch the dog...but they will figure it out.

Whether you ultimately choose to get a puppy (which I don't particularily recommend for you, BTW) or a younger dog from an animal shelter you have to keep your expectations LOW for the cat/dog interaction in the beginning. The puppy/cat relationship would actually be easier, but given your parents' history of getting rid of dogs for bogus reasons, I don't think that having a puppy and a toddler are a good mix for you.

I understand that you are NOT your mother, but puppies will nip and scratch ... it's what they do. The puppy will teethe and he will bite and chew things just like your toddler did when he was teething. Small children need more training with puppies than the puppies do...they need to be taught to respect the dog's personal space. More than once, our dogs (when they were puppies) nipped the kids and in every circumstance, it was their own darn fault! Dogs cannot speak, they cannot verbalize when they are tired or unhappy or not feeling well. The only way they can communicate or explore their world is with their mouths. Just be prepared, educate yourself, and don't overreact.

I love my dogs and my cats, they are all important members of the family. Good luck in your decision.

Thank you! Allie (our cat) tends to keep to herself. I really don't think it will be a problem... my main concern was finding a breed that wouldn't see Allie as prey or something to chase & attack. Two of the breeders w/ whom I've spoke raise their Keeshonden around cats.

I plan on purchasing the "Child Proofing your Dog" book. I will not leave the toddler alone with the puppy.

I'm fully prepared for the puppy to chew up everything in our house! One of the reasons we decided now would be a good time for a puppy because our house is pretty much child-proofed right now... and, from what I've read, puppy-proofing your house is alot like child-proofing your house.

There have been a lot of valid concerns in this thread, and you have addressed them OP. So if you really think you are ready for a Keeshond puppy, here are some things to look for in a breeder.

I am not a person that necessarily says that dogs must be shown in conformation (show ring) to a championship before breeding. But that's because my breed of choice is not an AKC breed, and I am more interested in the dog's working ability. So in my breed (Jack Russell Terriers) I am not looking for show titles, but working titles. For Keeshonden, though, conformation titles are your best bet.

The reason that many posters are saying the dogs should be shown, is because that is what conformation's original purpose is. To evaluate potential breeding stock. People that are breeding for show are constantly trying to improve their lines. And they don't breed any two champions together, willy-nilly. They have a dog they want to breed. They then try to find a dog that will complement the dog's natural strengths and with the aim to improve on the structural areas the dog is weakest.

What is also incredibly important, and this is what I would want to know about the breeder you are considering, is inheritable health risks. Each breed is prone to certain health conditions. If I were considering a Keeshond, I would want BOTH parents to have the following testing, or by descent been proven to be clear of the following issues:

Hips - the breeder should have both parents hips evaluated by either OFA or PennHIP. I personally would only get a pup from parents that are either Excellent or Good (OFA - most common). If PennHIP - the higher the percentile on the laxity evaluation the better.

Elbows - elbows on the parents should be x-rayed and evaluated as normal

Eyes - should be CERF tested and have come back normal

Patellas - evaluated on parents as normal

Thyroid - normal

PHPT - this is a genetic disease in Keeshonden. Parents should be tested to show they do not carry the gene for this disease.

If you ensure that the parents are free of health issues, the more likely it is that you will end up with a healthy puppy. Nothing is more heartbreaking to me than seeing a family find out that their puppy is dysplastic, or has a genetic health issue that will cut short it's life or affect the quality of it's life.

I've done some further checking w/ the breeder. The mother is not registered & does not come from registered stock - however she is friends w/ the owner of the parents of the mother and there is no evidence of PHPT. The father is CKC registered. Her dogs have not been screened for the PHPT, but she & her vet feel sure her dogs will test negative. She & her vet are currently working to get her dogs tested. In the lines of the father, there is no PHPT. Her dogs will receive the CERF certification in September. She is very upfront w/ me in that she raises companion dogs and not show dogs. She also said she specifically tries to stay away from AKC dogs because of how they are line bred and she doesn't agree with that. Her puppies do get their shots & vet screenings.

These are all excellent health screenings to ask your breeder if they have done them. And just don't accept an answer - ask to see the official results. . If your breeder is not doing the expensive health screenings - run, don't walk. Only a reputable breeder will shell out the money for health screenings to make sure that they are not perpetuating genetic diseases.

The other thing you must ask is if your breeder does a puppy temperament test. The pups should be temperament tested and the breeder should help fit the best puppy for your lifestyle.

I have always found that a well-bred dog from a reputable breeder is ALWAYS less expensive than a back yard breeder, as the reputable breeder is not breeding for profit. They are usually breeding to get their next show dog and will usually have some pet quality pups in the litter. Our breeder always says that if you are making money on the litter, you are not doing things right (not enough prenatal care, not enough health screenings, puppies priced to high) A good breeder is more concerned about the home the puppy will go to rather than the money they are making off the puppy.

Have you contacted the Keeshond Club of America? They have a list of reputable breeders that you can contact. You should pick their brain and they should pick yours.

So...

If your breeder has not done extensive health screenings - run.

If your breeder cannot tell you if PHPT runs anywhere in any of the past lineage - REALLY run.

If your breeder does not require a spay/neuter contract - run.

If your breeder cannot tell you what temperament lines are running in their dogs - run. You admit you are a bit lazy. You do not want to end up with the alpha puppy in the litter.

If the breeder does not stipulate that they have 1st right of refusal if you need to return the dog - run. (All reputable breeders will remain responsible for the puppies they put on the ground for their lives. The breeder should insist that if you ever find yourself in a position to have to get rid of the dog, that you return it to them.)

The breeder should be breeding for the betterment of the breed. Ask your breeder how this particular pairing of dogs betters the breed.

If your breeder does not screen you, just accepts your check - run.


Hint: Our neighbor wanted a schnauzer. She paid a horrendous amount for a dog that was CKC registered. She was also under the impression that the more they paid the better the dog.

Dog is an obvious mutt and has health problems up the yazoo, including juvenile cataracts (something the parents should have been cerfed for) which costs them $$$$ for specialized canine opthomologists.

If they had just gone to a reputable breeder, they would have paid less for their puppy, and most likely had a much healthier pup.

Thank you for all the additional advice! I am now also in contact w/ an official AKC breeder who is a "breeder of merit".

I think there has been good advice in this thread. Dogs are a lot of work and puppies are double that. I have 5 dogs (ours), we run a small rescue, growing up we always have more than one dog and my brother breed german shepherd for police and such training. The best advice I can give you no well breed dog or good breeder is going to be a cheap dog, no good breeder is going to just hand you a puppy. Just because a dog is register doesn't mean it came from a good background our only register dog is a puppy mill dog. I contacted AKC and they did nothing to the breeder they didn't care at all, so please do not go by that when picking a dog. Based on everything you have posted a Collie will be a great fit except for their hair. As many have said before I would not recommend a puppy. I really think you should look into rescues where the dog is pass the puppy stage. You can find rescues of every breed if you do your research you will find which rescue might fit you better. There is a huge difference between a puppy and a dog that is a year or older in the behavior and the amount of time they take.

Thank you!

Truthfully, all "purebreds" are mutts. People decided they wanted a characteristic of one breed with one of another and mated them till they got the "look" they wanted, or purpose or what have you.

Most "healthy" dogs are going to be your overall mutt. There's usually some hereditary issues that come with a purebred. And even the right mutt can have the characteristics you're looking for.

I honestly had no idea what I was getting myself into when I got my first dog, Kiani. But I've always loved animals, and I would never give one up. Didn't even spend 2 minutes at the shelter before Kari said "that's the one". Signed the papers, handed over the cash, and took her home. I still remember that first day. I put that leash and collar on her, and she was like "ok, I'm yours now". She jumped in the backseat, sat there perfectly quite the whole ride, and turned out to be the greatest dog in the world.

You also really need to learn your breeds going to a shelter, they hardly ever get them right past a pit bull. Kiani was listed as an american eskimo, but didn't fit the temperament at all. After some research, she fit the Samoyed temperament to a T, but she wasn't quite a purebred.

One other reason you might want to look at a rescue group, most the time their dogs are fostered. The foster parents can give you a lot more information on the dog's temperament than the breeder can. And it seems like you have certain expectations of how you want your dog to be able to mold into your family and lifestyle. Just like your kids, none of them are mini yous, they all have their own personalities and quirks. Just like a pup would. Plus rescues look at placing the right dog with the right family, and will be more willing to help you get the right breed.
I didn't have expectations of Kiani or needed her to fit into any sort of lifestyle. We just kind of rolled with the punches and figured things out.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that mutts are healthier than purebred dogs. I know that one can get a great dog from shelter - one can also get a dog with either health or behavior issues from a shelter too.

Because we will be this dog's forever family, I want to be sure we are getting a healthy, wellbred puppy with a friendly, happy temperament.

This has been an interesting thread. I especially like the comments about questioning the breeder about the genetic issues and diseases tested for.

Although we got George through a German Shepherd rescue they were clear that he was a mixed breed. It took us a while to figure out what he was likely mixed with since most of his physical characteristics are GSD. We finally decided it was mostly likely Siberian husky.

I don't know many Keeshonden but they are very pretty dogs. If you are going to spend a serious amount on a dog...please please please make sure that at least some of that money is going toward the tests needed to ensure you are getting a healthy animal.

A friend recently bought a pug from a backyard breeder and has had alot of trouble with health problems that they never thought to ask about. The poor dog has been to the vet with all kinds of issues (including teeth problems).

You are doing well to research and check for the best options. Also, I've noticed that many of the GSD breeders here won't let a puppy go until it's 4 or 5 months old (not the 6 week old puppy you see in the papers so often).

This thread has made me think a lot too!

I have really just scanned the last few pages of posts. But I just wanted to say one last thing...
having a dog, in real life, is nothing like what you see in the movies. I have always had a dog...well, pretty much always. And believe me...the vast majority of kids 'get over' having a dog quickly. My dd, 17, loves our dog, she truly does. BUT....it is not the relationship like Timmy and Lassie had!!
Having a dog is a life changing event. THey are not disposable. I'm just not sure you fully realize what you are getting into. And I would truly hate for you to be in the position of having to tell your children that the dog has to be given away because things just didn't work out. They are a lot of work.
And believe me....an older cat is not automatically going to adjust to a new dog. That is probably the worst combination. Yes, my dog and cats get along famously. But, the older cat was young when the dog arrived....and the younger cat got here after the dog...so not many issues.

Please, give this a lot of thought. Adding a dog to the family is a huge deal. And there is no way to be sure that any dog is going to meet all your requirements. All puppies bite, snap, chew, poop inside, jump on people. It takes a lot of training to get a puppy to grow into the kind of dog you want to have around. And being a big old softie isn't going to work. What will you do when that puppy bites, and he/she will, your youngest?? My dd, then 6, had a complete ring of holes around the hem of her nightie. Why??? Our puppy loved to try to grab the bottom of the nightie to get her to stop and play with him. And yes, sometimes he connected with skin!! Puppy teeth are very sharp. You have to be ready to be there, 24/7, ready to jump in and discipline the pup. Notice I didn't say punish...I said discipline. There is a big difference. Unless you are ready to undertake all this, then you are probably more suited to cats. Sometimes I wish I had only cats!!!

I really, really, really do know that dogs are not disposable. I think that I've demonstrated that w/ my prior adult history w/ pets. I also realize that it will be a lot of work.

Dozens of generations and many thousands of puppies later, yes, you have a "new" breed - it's not a breed until it breeds true, until the puppies uniformly look and act like the breed description. A one time breeding of two dogs results in a mutt. Some very lovely animals, often, but they're not a new breed. Breed a lab to a poodle and you don't get a new breed called a labradoodle. You get a mixed breed dog with a fancy price tag that may look like a lab and act like a poodle, or look like a poodle and act like a lab, and have the genetic predisposition of diseases from each side of the family.



As goofy pointed out, if you breed a golden retriever with hip dysplasia to a poodle with epilepsy, you don't end up with healthier puppies than two golden retrievers screened extensively for golden retriever diseases or two poodles screened extensively for poodle diseases. You just have more of a grab bag of possible maladies... and some diseases will be shared by both breeds and you'll be doubling up on them in a way you wouldn't if you were conscientiously documenting the health of each parent dog back 5-6 generations.

It's not that you COULDN"T conceivably do it conscientiously if you happened to have an exceptionally well constructed, healthy and good tempered Golden retriever and an equally exceptionally well constructed, healthy and good tempered poodle. But the people doing the "designer" breedings are not working with prime material to begin with and I would question how much health information going how far back they have on the parents. "The vet says they're real healthy" is not what you want to hear. As others have said, you want paperwork.

One other caveat about puppies and small children -- I tell people getting puppies that the puppy WILL destroy something of great sentimental value to you. They almost always do -- rip/stain grandma's quilt, pull a pack of photographic negatives off the counter and chew them (okay, not so much any more, but that happened to me and they were the last photos I had of one of my dogs). But with kids in the house, they will chew Barbie dolls, action figures... you name it. And as much as you tell your kids that it's their fault for not putting toys away, a four year old who is freaking out because Fluffy ate the legs or head off their favorite toy is hard to console, and harder to convince not to blame the dog.

Of course a lot can be prevented with supervision, but children's toys can be quite small, and dogs can grab them from under the sofa and other places in a flash. I will say from extensive experience that crayons make for parti-colored dog poop.

And surgery to take a toy from a dog's stomach is not cheap, so that's another consideration.

Sort of like how my children can destroy things of great sentimental value?

Okay... I have an update, of sorts. And time for more opinions...

After thinking about health issues, I found another breeder. This particular breeder is an AKC breeder of merit. Her puppies have had all the health tests & are pedigree puppies w/ champion lines.

However, the puppies she has available are already 12 weeks old.

And the "hobby breeder" is just so nice - after talking w/ her so much, I hate to now tell her we've changed our mind. I don't want to upset her. Plus, her puppies just seem so social and well-loved.

The puppies are the exact same price. So, which puppy?

Oh, and I've been very upfront w/ both breeders as to our current household and our previous pet history.

 

[jrmasm]

However, the puppies she has available are already 12 weeks old.

Is that a negative in your mind?

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

You keep mentioning you don't want a certain breed due to "doggie odor". Can you please explain?

I have Rough Collies (long haired) that I used to show before I had children. One of the woman I showed with had Keeshonds . She showed them in confirmation as well as performance and worked a little with the local rescue club.

These dogs are not needing alot of outside exercise like a Lab or border collie would but they are high maintance dogs. Their coats require extensive care. I know you say that you know that, but People just don't realize the time and expense of it. My products I use for my collies just with them being house dogs costs hundreds of dollars, between brushes, combs, scissors, table, and bathing products. It goes on and on. The cost to groom one of them at our local groomer is about $80.00 a dog and that is if they go ever 6-8 weeks.

We received so many collies into rescue because the owners said they did know their coat required so much care or that they would shed so much. Keeshonds are the same, just throwing a few more things out there.

 

[goofy!]

I have always really liked German Shepherds! And your story of your dog sleeping in front of your children's bedrooms is precious! And often what I envision for our dog! But, yes, I do realize that having a dog is not a storybook romance every day. Really, honestly, I do. And, in our family too, pets are with us until death us do part.



Thank you. Now, that I've posted, I've started thinking a lot more about the particular breeder I've found. I really do think she is a hobby breeder, but there are some things that concern me. I've asked her questions regarding AKC vs CKC & also what kind of health tests her puppies have. Not all of her answers have been reassuring.

But I'm thinking that our toddler will be okay with a puppy.




Oh, I know no one is trying to make me feel bad. And I appreciate all the responses. Really!

Everyone's replies have made me do a lot of thinking & rethinking to make sure we are ready for a puppy.

And I have researched breeds - researching breeds was how I chose the Keeshonden. If I had not been researching, I would have chosen a lab or a golden retriever. Or would have one out and got the 1st shiba inu I saw (after the puppy cam)! But I've realized that those breeds aren't the best for our family. The Keeshonden have a really good family-oriented temperament, don't need a lot of outdoor-type exercise - although they're happy to be outside with us & go on walks. A Keeshond will play with my children, let my DD whisper secrets to him while brushing him, & then cuddle with me to watch TV on the couch.



I want a good dog too! And, yes, an older dog would probably be easier. But there's something about the puppy experience... I want that for our children. I want this puppy to grow here - with his forever family.



I adore beagles!! If it weren't for their doggy odor, we would have a beagle!



Thank you! I really, really, really do appreciate everyone's responses. I know that there alot of responsible dog expert DISsers, & that is why I came here. I don't think anyone has been mean at all. I'm reading everyone's replies & really thinking & considering.

(The only thing that is, perhaps, hurting my feelings a bit is the assumption that, because my parents got rid of our dogs growing up, that I will do the same thing.)

Honestly, if it were just me, I would be looking for a young adult dog, but I'm looking for a puppy for my children - which is, conversely, the reason why ya'll are telling me I need to find an older dog.



This is how I'm understanding hobby vs. backyard breeders as well. This particular breeder w/ whom I've been in contact really seems to know her dogs - her dogs are raised in her house and appear very loved & well-socialized.

There are a few health-test related things that are concerning me though. Additionally, her price is about the same as an AKC puppy.



I've looked a little at Keeshond rescue groups but I haven't really found anything.



Actually, I did consider a smooth collie. If I remember correctly, the reason why I went w/ a Keeshond over a smooth collie was that smooth collies are harder to find.



Thank you!



Thank you! Allie (our cat) tends to keep to herself. I really don't think it will be a problem... my main concern was finding a breed that wouldn't see Allie as prey or something to chase & attack. Two of the breeders w/ whom I've spoke raise their Keeshonden around cats.

I plan on purchasing the "Child Proofing your Dog" book. I will not leave the toddler alone with the puppy.

I'm fully prepared for the puppy to chew up everything in our house! One of the reasons we decided now would be a good time for a puppy because our house is pretty much child-proofed right now... and, from what I've read, puppy-proofing your house is alot like child-proofing your house.



I've done some further checking w/ the breeder. The mother is not registered & does not come from registered stock - however she is friends w/ the owner of the parents of the mother and there is no evidence of PHPT. The father is CKC registered. Her dogs have not been screened for the PHPT, but she & her vet feel sure her dogs will test negative. She & her vet are currently working to get her dogs tested. In the lines of the father, there is no PHPT. Her dogs will receive the CERF certification in September. She is very upfront w/ me in that she raises companion dogs and not show dogs. She also said she specifically tries to stay away from AKC dogs because of how they are line bred and she doesn't agree with that. Her puppies do get their shots & vet screenings.



Thank you for all the additional advice! I am now also in contact w/ an official AKC breeder who is a "breeder of merit".



Thank you!



I wouldn't necessarily agree that mutts are healthier than purebred dogs. I know that one can get a great dog from shelter - one can also get a dog with either health or behavior issues from a shelter too.

Because we will be this dog's forever family, I want to be sure we are getting a healthy, wellbred puppy with a friendly, happy temperament.



This thread has made me think a lot too!



I really, really, really do know that dogs are not disposable. I think that I've demonstrated that w/ my prior adult history w/ pets. I also realize that it will be a lot of work.



Sort of like how my children can destroy things of great sentimental value?

Okay... I have an update, of sorts. And time for more opinions...

After thinking about health issues, I found another breeder. This particular breeder is an AKC breeder of merit. Her puppies have had all the health tests & are pedigree puppies w/ champion lines.

However, the puppies she has available are already 12 weeks old.

And the "hobby breeder" is just so nice - after talking w/ her so much, I hate to now tell her we've changed our mind. I don't want to upset her. Plus, her puppies just seem so social and well-loved.

The puppies are the exact same price. So, which puppy?

Oh, and I've been very upfront w/ both breeders as to our current household and our previous pet history.

I would go with the 12 week old puppy. Our breeder doesn't like to place puppies before 12 weeks as there is so much puppy learning they do during this time. A puppy that has had lessons on how to be a dog from his mother and littermates is a much, much more well-adjusted dog.

The fact that your first breeder says "I think they would be healthy if tested" should tell you to RUN like the wind. Sure she can say they are going to be cerfed in the future - but that doesn't help you in determining the healthh of the puppies, now does it? And my guess is the dogs will never be cerfed and that is just a line being fed to you.

A responsible breeder would have done the cerf and all the health tests long before they had even one litter on the ground, let alone 3 a year.

The fact that she is breeding without the health screenings screams backyard, for profit breeder that has learned how to say the right things so that first time buyers, who are a bit naive (and not in a negative way) fall for her used-car sales pitch.

Just because the dogs are in the house, does not make her a good breeder. If you really want to test her, have her pull out the pedigree on the CKC male (since she said she knows all about his history) and ask her the health screening results of the great, great grandparents. If she is a responsible breeder, she should be able to tell you the history of each and every dog in the pedigree.

 

[goofy4tink]

Okay....you do seem to be on the right road here. You seem to be giving some thought and are looking at the right things. 12 weeks old really isn't all 'that' old for a puppy. Really, truly...many people get pups before they are really ready to leave their mom and litter-mates. So, don't let that stop you.

My other concern is the one about the 'doggie smell'. Very few 'breeds' have no doggie smell. My golden has no doggie smell. But, he is groomed every 6 weeks..more often in the warmer months. It's not the coat that is smelly, it's the skin. I have a friend who has a goldadoodle....part golden, part poodle. He is supposed to be hypoallergenic. Maybe so...but he tends to get really stinky. Probably not groomed often enough.
Smelliness can be dealth with by bathing. You don't bath a dog every week (unless he's being shown) but they do need bathing every month or so when it's warm...and less frequently in the cooler weather.
I have friends with dogs that are so bad, I have to wash my hands after touching them. They just aren't groomed enough.

It's all about the care that is taken. Have you looked into the Norwich Terriers, or the Australian Terriers??? Nice little dogs, don't shed, good with kids (at least the ones I've been around were). Just a thought.

My golden was also bred in a household family atmosphere. Inside the house with all his litter-mates. But they also had a beautiful kennel run outside. BUT...I can also go to my dog's notebook and get the health records for both his parents. I can also see who his grandparents were on both sides. I can see the physical records from when he was examined as a young puppy. It's all there in black and white. There is no way I would have paid the amount I paid without those records. Sure, I could have simply returned the puppy if he had been sick, but that would have been very hard to do..have you ever seen a golden retriever puppy??? Dear lord....they are the cutest things on the planet. Really hard to give back.
Long story short? Be absolutely sure about who you are buying from. Get those health records, and keep them.

 

[Scurvy]

I want a good dog too! And, yes, an older dog would probably be easier. But there's something about the puppy experience... I want that for our children. I want this puppy to grow here - with his forever family.




Honestly, if it were just me, I would be looking for a young adult dog, but I'm looking for a puppy for my children - which is, conversely, the reason why ya'll are telling me I need to find an older dog.

There are a few health-test related things that are concerning me though. Additionally, her price is about the same as an AKC puppy.
----
I plan on purchasing the "Child Proofing your Dog" book. I will not leave the toddler alone with the puppy.

I'm fully prepared for the puppy to chew up everything in our house! One of the reasons we decided now would be a good time for a puppy because our house is pretty much child-proofed right now... and, from what I've read, puppy-proofing your house is alot like child-proofing your house.



I've done some further checking w/ the breeder. The mother is not registered & does not come from registered stock - however she is friends w/ the owner of the parents of the mother and there is no evidence of PHPT. The father is CKC registered. Her dogs have not been screened for the PHPT, but she & her vet feel sure her dogs will test negative. She & her vet are currently working to get her dogs tested. In the lines of the father, there is no PHPT. Her dogs will receive the CERF certification in September. She is very upfront w/ me in that she raises companion dogs and not show dogs. She also said she specifically tries to stay away from AKC dogs because of how they are line bred and she doesn't agree with that. Her puppies do get their shots & vet screenings.




Sort of like how my children can destroy things of great sentimental value?

Okay... I have an update, of sorts. And time for more opinions...

After thinking about health issues, I found another breeder. This particular breeder is an AKC breeder of merit. Her puppies have had all the health tests & are pedigree puppies w/ champion lines.

However, the puppies she has available are already 12 weeks old.

And the "hobby breeder" is just so nice - after talking w/ her so much, I hate to now tell her we've changed our mind. I don't want to upset her. Plus, her puppies just seem so social and well-loved.

The puppies are the exact same price. So, which puppy?

Oh, and I've been very upfront w/ both breeders as to our current household and our previous pet history.

What it is about the "puppy experience" that you are wanting for your children? I ask because, in my opinion, when you have children there are many more negatives than positives to the puppy experience and I'm curious as to what you think are the positives. As I see it, the positives are that puppies are cuter than older dogs and you get to mold the puppy from early on. But in your case, I'm not sure #2 is really a plus since you aren't yet really well versed in training dogs. You might be molding the dog to be perfect from an early age but you might also be doing more harm than good.

The negatives of getting a puppy when you have kids: They are a lot more work than an older dog. They can't be trusted - you can't take your eyes off them for a minute or they will have accidents in the house and destroy things. They will bite and nip and chew, on your things and on your children. They are fragile, so kids can't hug them and play with them the way they are likely to want to. They aren't terribly interactive (unless they want to be, and they won't all the time), and won't play fetch or learn tricks at first. They are hyper and wild - even if they are a breed that is calm as adults - and then they fall sound asleep when you want to play with them. Their personalities aren't as obvious as they will be when they are older, so it's harder to be sure you're choosing the perfect dog for your family. (That last one is less important when you have a breeder who chooses the puppy for you, but more important if you're the one picking it out.)

Regarding the two parts in red: It doesn't matter if they feel the test would be negative. Of course they say feel that way, and they may actually feel that way. But ignore it. Until and unless there's an actual test that is negative, it doesn't matter what they feel. Honestly the fact that she said that would worry me - it seems like a tactic a used car salesman would use.

Also ignore that she's nice. Lots of people are nice but you can't feel obligated to do business with every nice salesperson who helps you when you're shopping for something, and despite the fact that this is a living thing you are shopping for you are still shopping and the breeder is still a salesperson. I'm sure she is nice and I also hate telling people no about things like this. But if she's a decent breeder she will completely understand, and if she doesn't understand then she's not the kind of person you would want to do business with anyway. This isn't personal. You aren't choosing her, you're choosing the dog that is the best fit for your family. A good breeder will understand and encourage that sort of thinking.

Personally, if I were buying a puppy and had a choice between getting one from a reputable breeder who does all the health testing and someone else who doesn't, there would be no question - especially if they were the same price. I'd go with the reputable breeder every time. Though you seem to think 12 weeks is not a good age, it's really better for the puppies to stay with the mother that long if possible so that's actually a plus.

 

[goofy!]

This is directly from the Keeshond Club of America - the National Breed Club of the Keeshond.

As you can see, a quality breeder does not say "I am pretty sure they will test positive." A quality breeder will show you the paperwork where the dogs were tested. You should be able to look up every one of the breeder's dog's results online on the Offa website.

With your additional information, breeder #1 is definitely NOT a hobby breeder.

HOW TO IDENTIFY A QUALITY BREEDER
A quality breeder will
•
Not deal with you through a middleman, broker or a pet store
•
Sells directly to you and will not allow for resale through a third party
•
Is happy to show you mother of the litter. Occasionally, however, a breeder may have a puppy from a ***** that he or she has bred and sold or one from a stud dog he/she owns, in which case the mother may not be present.
•
Breeds only the best dogs. This is why most dogs in his/her breeding program are champions and/or puppies are champion sired. A champion is a dog that has proven itself to be an outstanding specimen of the breed in both temperament and structure, thereby worthy of being bred.
•
Has their dog that used for breeding certified clear of hip dysplasia by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or Penn/Hip. The breeder will provide copies of their dog’s hip evaluation. The sire and dam are also listed on the OFA website under Keeshond, their registered name.
•
Can provide with certification that dam and sire have been check for patellar luxation, (slipping knee caps).
•
Can provide you with information that sire and dam have been tested for PHPT or are clear by descent.
•
Only sells puppies under contract.
•
Requires as a condition of sale that all animals not part of a responsible breeding program are spayed or neutered once they are mature.
•
Asks many questions about you and your lifestyle to determine if a Keeshond is a suitable pet for you.
•
Will provide written material to guide you in caring for your puppy.
•
Is always available to help with questions and problems that may arise.
•
Are concerned about the future of the puppies they breed, and acknowledge responsibility for and stand behind every puppy they produce.
•
Is concerned about the future of the breed and is a member of the Keeshond Club of America and/or a local Keeshond club. KCA is dedicated to the protection and well being of the breed and all members have agreed to abide by its Code of Ethics.
•
Is a hobby breeder who may have only one or two litters a year so you may have to wait for your puppy.

 

[goofy!]

This is also from the Keeshond Club of America.

It explains how to recognize a quality hobby breeder.

3. Hobby Breeder - The best choice.

The serious and dedicated hobby breeder regards his or her dogs as just that - a hobby. She/He does not expect a profit. When someone breeds dogs for the enjoyment, pleasure and "thrill" of producing the very finest possible specimens of the breed, rather than for profit, the result is superior quality. These breeders acknowledge responsibility for each and every puppy produced and stand behind every dog they breed.

Unequivocally, your choice should be from the ranks of the hobby breeder. It is an interesting fact that poor quality pups from pet shops and backyard breeders are usually sold for the same price, and sometimes even more, than quality pups purchased from serious hobby breeders. All three types of breeders sell puppies that are AKC registerable, but registration is neither an assurance of quality nor an indication of dedication to the breed. The question is, how does one recognize the serious, dedicated hobby breeder? While the list below identifies many of the attributes and characteristics of the serious hobby breeder, almost no breeder will have all of these. Do not be afraid to ask questions or to confront a prospective source with these requirements. It is your right and you can rest assured that a dedicated and reputable breeder will respond positively and with pride. If your breeder meets all of these qualifications, you're in good hands.

Finally, don't be impulsive. Keep in mind that you will pay for quality no matter where your puppy comes from. Whether or not you get it is up to you.

1. Your breeder should belong to the Keeshond Club of America, a local Keeshond Club, or a local all-breed club. Ideally, he or she belongs to all three, and possibly other organizations as well, although, some-times not all the options will be available to them. Usually, participation in dog clubs indicates depth of involvement. The breeder is exposed to other points of view, learns more about their breed, general dog care, modern breeding practices, and is kept up to date. Frequently, they will be breeding in accordance with a club's "code of ethics."

2. Your breeder should be involved in some form of sanctioned competition with his/her dog(s). This means your breeder is not breeding in a vacuum. The breeder who does not show may have no idea how good his/her dogs really are and is deprived of the opportunity to share information and ideas with others. Showing provides competition that encourages breeders to produce better dogs. Breeders who show are not relying solely on a pedigree to indicate quality. The show ring is the forum that indicates the degree to which a dog conforms to the standard for its breed. Even though you may not want a show dog, you deserve a pet that was the end result of a carefully planned litter - a pup that received the same care as a potential champion. The breeder who shows is known by others and has a reputation to uphold, and will be as careful and honest in selling you a pet as he or she is in selling show stock.

3. Your breeder should give you a reasonable period of time to have your pup checked by a veterinarian to determine its state of health. If a problem should arise, it can be quickly resolved.

4. Breeders should give you written instructions on feeding, training, care and grooming. The breeder should also supply you with basic information about the breed, either as a gift or give you the opportunity to purchase it at a nominal cost. You should also receive the pup's health and vaccination records.

5. Breeders should be able to supply proof that their dogs have been examined by a veterinarian and that their stock has been x-rayed clear of hip dysplasia and evaluated for normal patellae. Both evaluations should preferably be confirmed with an OFA certification number.

6. Make it clear that you expect the breeder's responsibility to continue after you have taken the puppy home. Many dedicated breeders will ask that the pup be returned to them or placed with new owners that meet their approval if, for some reason, you are not able to continue ownership.

7. Be prepared to answer a few questions yourself. Reputable breeders are genuinely interested in finding quality homes for their puppies. Don't be offended if the breeder asks whether you have a fenced yard or what kind of dogs you have had in the past and what happened to them. A serious breeder will want to know what kinds of situations their puppies will be subjected to and what kind of care they will receive. Some breeders may seem a bit hesitant to sell you a pup until they know more about you and your family.

8. Breeders should be willing to have you visit their premises and should be able to show you a clean environment, well-socialized pups, and a dam with a good temperament. Puppies should seem happy and self-assured.

9. Breeders should be willing to give you as references the names of people who have purchased puppies from them in the past, or other Keeshond owners, or their veterinarian.

10. Breeders should provide a contract or some written, signed conditions of sale. You should also get a copy of your puppy's pedigree and you should be able to see a copy of the AKC Registration Application Form.

11. Breeders will often require that your pet be spayed or neutered when it reaches the appropriate age and may withhold registration paper work until proof is provided. The most important reason for this is to ensure a healthier animal. Spayed or neutered dogs are far less prone to many serious maladies. In addition, serious breeders spend a lot of time and effort planning breeding programs designed to improve the breed. They selectively carry out their programs with only the best quality available. Pets should be loved and enjoyed as pets. Reputable breeders don't want their dogs used just to make puppies, or worse yet, end up in a "puppy mill" where they will be used to mass produce Keeshonden.

 

[SandrA9810]

Dozens of generations and many thousands of puppies later, yes, you have a "new" breed - it's not a breed until it breeds true, until the puppies uniformly look and act like the breed description. A one time breeding of two dogs results in a mutt. Some very lovely animals, often, but they're not a new breed. Breed a lab to a poodle and you don't get a new breed called a labradoodle. You get a mixed breed dog with a fancy price tag that may look like a lab and act like a poodle, or look like a poodle and act like a lab, and have the genetic predisposition of diseases from each side of the family.

As goofy pointed out, if you breed a golden retriever with hip dysplasia to a poodle with epilepsy, you don't end up with healthier puppies than two golden retrievers screened extensively for golden retriever diseases or two poodles screened extensively for poodle diseases. You just have more of a grab bag of possible maladies... and some diseases will be shared by both breeds and you'll be doubling up on them in a way you wouldn't if you were conscientiously documenting the health of each parent dog back 5-6 generations.

It's not that you COULDN"T conceivably do it conscientiously if you happened to have an exceptionally well constructed, healthy and good tempered Golden retriever and an equally exceptionally well constructed, healthy and good tempered poodle. But the people doing the "designer" breedings are not working with prime material to begin with and I would question how much health information going how far back they have on the parents. "The vet says they're real healthy" is not what you want to hear. As others have said, you want paperwork.

I hate designer "breeds"... that's a whole other story. But I'm just saying, that it's possible to find a keeshound mutt at the pound. Where's it's not a true 100% keeshound, but carries the characteristics of that dog.

Kiani was about 3 when I got her (or so they thought). I have no idea what other breeds she had in her. I know she had spots on her tongue and mouth, but it happens in several of the spitz line. She didn't have a full coat like most sammies, her body was mostly a longer thin coat. Around her face/chest and hind end, she had a thick double coat. She was a lot smaller than most, averaged about 30-35lbs (which was perfect for apartments). But I'd take a sammy mutt any day again. Even if my clothes turn into a second fur coat, but that happens with most dogs.

 

[kacaju]

a 12 week old puppy is very much a puppy...don't sell yourself on getting *newborn* so to speak. A 12 week old puppy will still give you every experience owning a puppy except that it may actually sleep through the night because he/she is a little older. The only thing you will miss it is going from 5 lbs to 20 lbs in 2 months...very under rated LOL!!