Do you think I am wrong?

[luvthemouse71]

These threads always devolve into everyone patting each other on the back for their good choices and responsibility, while tsking and headshaking at the presumed actions of those whose lives they know absolutely nothing about.

It all boils down to just one thing; there but for the grace of God go I.

 

[Halbleib1]

I don't have an answer for your bt I can understand the frustration. I was behind a young couple at the grocery store. They had a baby in their cart that was in an obviously and old car seat and they were paying for their groceries with the food stamp card. I never pay much attention to people ahead of me but the cashier asked if the card was visa or debit and she said it was EBT (is that the right word?). The young man was chatting on one of those blackberry whatever phones and then the girl's phone rang and she had one of those nice phones as well. I did upset me even though it wasn't any of my business. I mean sure those phones have some good deals but when you are buying your food with food stamps and your kid is in an ancient car seat a 9.95 tracphone with 30 emergency minutes is enough.

Believe it or not the state is actually providing that cell phone now in some cases.

 

[Halbleib1]

I understand how you feel but don't always make judgements based on appearances. Because of job loss and family illnesses we were on foodstamps for nearly a year. We became a one vehicle family, keeping only the old, paid-for junker, but still really needed a second vehicle. My parents kindly allowed us to use an extra vehicle they own. I'm sure anyone who watched me pay with foodstamps and then get into my parents very nice, new, expensive vehicle would have been angry. What you see is not always what is fact.

Your opinion may have been accurate but it might not have been. They may have owned these phones since before they had financial issues. The phones and service plans may be from a family member. You really cannot know unless you see their monthly income and expense sheets. Dh and I kept our cell phones because he had to have one for a job he had and I needed one for my job. We did both work but our income was just too low and yes, they were nice phones but they were purchased pre-financial disaster and it would have cost us money to purchase less nice phones.

Sorry for the unintentional rant but this is obviously a sore subject for me.

At the same time I understand the situation concerning the op. I now work in administration at a non-profit that works with homeless and those at risk of becoming homeless. My family struggles on a tight budget but then we have families come in with $200 cable bills. Our organization does require that these types of expenses be reduced or eliminated to participate in our program. Most of our funding is from grants and we cannot justify using those funds to help people who are not helping themselves.

So true. We have a cell phone only because we are on my in laws cell phone family plan which only costs 10.00 a month extra for our phone. In many cases as in ours the phone was free after rebates with a contract. You can even get blackberries for free. Heck even the Iphone is drastically cheaper this way. You do not know a persons situation just from observing.

 

[Halbleib1]

I worked in the customer service dept at our natural gas company and you would not believe what people spend money on before paying for their gas. I have had them tell me the cable bill was $100 and that is why I did not pay my gas bill. Another person who I informed that the collector was coming that day to shut off her gas said to me, "oh can he wait till I return the DVD player I bought?" This was years ago when DVD players first came out and cost a few hundred dollars.

What they also don't understand is that if you have kids if you have your utilities shut off, the utility company can call the children services agency. Not providing a necessity such as utilities for a child is neglect. Which will result in a home visit from a social worker.

Not much a social worker can do so long as the family is not abusing their children in any way and are feeding them and keeping them warm in some capacity. There were times when I was growing up that my family could not afford to keep the electric on or to buy oil for heating. We made do with candles and a woodstove. We heated water up on top of the woodstove for baths as well as cooked on it. Is this ideal NO but when you have no other choice you make do. Electricity is not mandatory. Believe it or not you can live without it. Matter of fact the Amish do it everyday.


Some people just don't have their priorities straight. I agree you need to have priorities but sometimes even with priorities you can not always prevent these things from happening. Sometimes it comes down to the mortgage and food or gas and electric which is not going to do you much good if you do not have a home to use it in.

PP I have to agree with you, people have become so a custom to being on welfare and using the system. They are leaches of our tax dollars. They sit at home wait for their so called paycheck as they call them and then buy ribs, steaks and other high dollar items. Then when they have no money to pay for bills they turn to crime. I say they should only be allowed on welfare for 2 years and that is it. We need to break this cycle.

It is easy for those of us not in need of these programs to judge. But when you need these programs you will be very grateful that they are there for you. In harsh economic times like now some people have been laid off for 2 years or more and have no choice but to utilize these programs because they just can not find a job to pay the bills no matter how hard they try. Many of the people that are now asking for help have never been nor thought that they would be in this situation and have waited as long as they could without asking for help. While some do take advantage of the system there are many more that have not.

 

[Halbleib1]

If that were true then we would all be bankrupt

Food costs have dropped as much as healthcare have risen for example. The biggest problem I see is the 21st century lifestyle. It is still easy to live a 70's lifestyle:

One car
1,000 SF house
No Starbucks, Ipod, cable, cell phones, vido games, DVDs, digital cameras, large screen TVs, computers, "organic" food, vacation at the relatives, no eating out except for birthdays, etc. etc.

Single income, 70's lifestyle (actually probably saved up to 90's now ), and proud of it

You can live a frugal lifestyle and still have many of those things on your list. It is called saving up until you can afford them. Once you have the money saved you look and wait if need be for the best deal on that item.

 

[Halbleib1]

But that's why these people got into trouble to begin with. Usually financial problems don't happen overnight. When money starts getting tight, you need to give up luxuries (yes I do mean cellphones and cable!) to get back on track so you don't lose your house. Yes a few hundred dollars every month DOES make a difference. There is a big part of society who does not know how or is not willing to make any kind of sacrifice. And why should they? Government will bail them out over and over again, and middle class people like myself will continue to have my taxes rise to cover for irresponsible people.

Actually it was many middle class people like you and I that were bailed out of foreclosure on their homes. They were overextended middle class people. Meaning middle class people that bought too much home for what they could afford or made bad loan decisions either because they were mislead or because they did not read the paperwork. Yes we were told when we closed on our home and were actually reading the paperwork before signing that many people do not read the paperwork. They just sign without even knowing what they are signing they take the title company's word for it. We were actually the only people to read our homeowner association rules before signing a contract to buy a home in our development as well the realitor said. Which totally shows in what people try to do because they are not aware of the rules. Than they are shocked when they are told to change or remove something.

 

[kelly1218]

I agree somewhat. I think that for me a cel phone is very important. Weather can get horrible here and the roads can be very dangerous. Since I have to drive my kids 20 miles each way to school I think that this is a necessity. HOWEVER, all of the extras that I do enjoy with my phone are not necessities. If we were tossed into a situation where I had to cut corners the cel phone I have would be one of the first things to go.

My DD12 has a tracphone. She uses about 5 mintes a month. It is for emergencies (we had issues with safety and her dad but that's different) and for when practice ends early or late. I just feel better knowing she can call me without having to hunt down a phone. On the other hand you should see the girls in her class. I find it so upsetting I have to laugh. She is still in elementary school and all the girls have the phones with features I don't even know about. I hate to be so judgemental but...since we are talking about money...you can tell by the kid's cel phone (in my DD's class not overall) which parents are struggling with money and which ones aren't. Every kid in her class that is on the free or reduced lunch has a very expensive cel phone and has all the unlimited text and internet. The kids whose parents don't get any freebies have the tracphones or none at all.

I have to ask, do you know the financial situation of every kid in her class?

I know you said it's not overall, but that's still a pretty unfair generalization.

My kids each have an 'expensive' unlimited texting cell phone. They got the free phones, we have family unlimited texting, and we share a block of minutes.
With my work discount, I pay less than $9 a month for each of their phones.
and yet we don't get free assistance.
I would hate to think one of my kids parents would say this about us.


Of course you can flame DH and I, we do both have iPhones. But my mortgage is paid each month

 

[smidgy]

I have a cheap Pay as you go cell phone. that is all anyone "needs". (I finally broke down and got the cheap cell when I was job hunting) no children do not "need" a cell phone. not only are you not "doing wrong" you are helping these people. even if you get them a cheaper contract that would be better.

 

[Colleen27]

Actually it was many middle class people like you and I that were bailed out of foreclosure on their homes. They were overextended middle class people. Meaning middle class people that bought too much home for what they could afford or made bad loan decisions either because they were mislead or because they did not read the paperwork.

Yep. The whole homeowner bailout/govt supported loan restructuring was intended for people who irresponsibly got in too deep. It isn't helping working class families who saw their jobs go away because of the credit crunch; it is helping middle class homeowners who couldn't handle the rate reset or balloon payment on their unconventional home loan. But all the judgment and social scorn is for the working class family that needs assistance in a difficult time; no one scrutinizes the cars, cell phones, and clothing brands of the people getting govt-supported breaks on the mortgage on their McMansion.

 

[PrincessDadx2]

These threads always devolve into everyone patting each other on the back for their good choices and responsibility, while tsking and headshaking at the presumed actions of those whose lives they know absolutely nothing about.

It all boils down to just one thing; there but for the grace of God go I.

No, these threads are about expectations and entitlements.

I get that people struggle. I give over 10% of my income to charity, volunteer, and counsel many people. It does get a little frustrating when you deliver food to people who live in a nicer house and have 3 nicer cars than yours.

The question to me if that if you are on the dole should you be allowed to maintain a level of luxury that many working people can't afford. When you get past all the psychological crap and the teenage self esteem issues that is the point.

I was taught very clearly that "beggars can't be choosers" I have no shame in taking assistance, but would never expect to have other people support me without doing everything and giving up everything that was not an absolute necessity to human survival.

There is no magic government that pays these people. It comes out of the pocket of every working person and out of the debt that our children will inherit. Whether it goes to welfare queens, McMansion owners, defense contractors, or corporate bigshots it is all down the drain when there is no personal responsibility or accountability.

As Dave Ramsey has aptly said, there is an ancient word that can solve most of our problems. You rarely hear it, and it hurts, but you need to say it. That word is NO!!!

 

[OceanAnnie]

No, these threads are about expectations and entitlements.

I get that people struggle. I give over 10% of my income to charity, volunteer, and counsel many people. It does get a little frustrating when you deliver food to people who live in a nicer house and have 3 nicer cars than yours.

The question to me if that if you are on the dole should you be allowed to maintain a level of luxury that many working people can't afford. When you get past all the psychological crap and the teenage self esteem issues that is the point.

I was taught very clearly that "beggars can't be choosers" I have no shame in taking assistance, but would never expect to have other people support me without doing everything and giving up everything that was not an absolute necessity to human survival.

There is no magic government that pays these people. It comes out of the pocket of every working person and out of the debt that our children will inherit. Whether it goes to welfare queens, McMansion owners, defense contractors, or corporate bigshots it is all down the drain when there is no personal responsibility or accountability.

As Dave Ramsey has aptly said, there is an ancient word that can solve most of our problems. You rarely hear it, and it hurts, but you need to say it. That word is NO!!!

I think you hit the nail on the head.

This isn't the first time this country has been through economic hardships.

 

[jodifla]

No, these threads are about expectations and entitlements.

I get that people struggle. I give over 10% of my income to charity, volunteer, and counsel many people. It does get a little frustrating when you deliver food to people who live in a nicer house and have 3 nicer cars than yours.

The question to me if that if you are on the dole should you be allowed to maintain a level of luxury that many working people can't afford. When you get past all the psychological crap and the teenage self esteem issues that is the point.

I was taught very clearly that "beggars can't be choosers" I have no shame in taking assistance, but would never expect to have other people support me without doing everything and giving up everything that was not an absolute necessity to human survival.

There is no magic government that pays these people. It comes out of the pocket of every working person and out of the debt that our children will inherit. Whether it goes to welfare queens, McMansion owners, defense contractors, or corporate bigshots it is all down the drain when there is no personal responsibility or accountability.

As Dave Ramsey has aptly said, there is an ancient word that can solve most of our problems. You rarely hear it, and it hurts, but you need to say it. That word is NO!!!

But again, taking Michigan as an example, people who would normally sell their houses and downsize, getting out of higher payments, can't. They are trapped. The housing market is in a shambles here right now.

Again, the problem here is jobs, pure and simple. Everyone I know around here was doing fine and living within their means, but not having work for months and months will sink ANYBODY.

 

[luvsJack]

Everyone keeps saying that a cell phone is a luxury. And I do agree that, for the most part, teens having a phone can be a luxury and for some adults it is a luxury. But what some of you seem unable to see, is that its not a luxury for everyone.

At what point does something stop being a luxury? I mean, years ago just having indoor plumbing was a luxury; electricity was a luxury at one point; not too many year ago having a land line phone was a luxury and a home computer was only for the really "well to do". All of these things are now considered a need. (and yes, if you have a kid in school, are going to college yourself, or are looking for a job; a computer with the internet is a need)

We say "grandpa did without it". Yep, my mom lived without indoor plumbing, without electricity, no medical or dental care and a diet of only the cheapest food or what they could grow. Does that mean I want to live that way: no. Or does that even mean we would suggest that these people who are "almost homeless" should live that way? No. But mom survived and is a quite healthy 74 year old.

When dh and I first married we didn't have a land line phone for years. If we needed to make a call, we went to mom's and borrowed the phone and we gave their number and "please, leave a message" on job applications. Would that work now? Probably not.

When he got the job he has now and we knew he had to have a cell, we then compared having a land line to adding a cell for me. It was cheaper to add a cell to the plan than to pay for a land line. So that was the choice we made. DD now has a phone, free phone, unlimited text (and we get no free lunches) for $19.99 per month. My cell replaces a land line in the house. The only actual "luxury" phone we have is dd's.


Its as though our society is making a cell phone a necessity. Many coaches, organization leaders, teachers, etc. like to text their students needed information. Schools text emergency information to parents (like if the school is closing due to weather). Pay phones are not available so if a person's car breaks down or has a flat, what to do? (and where I live, walking to the nearest phone is not always an option). Many job places (like fast food, etc.) also like to text their employees their schedule for the week (which would go back to whether a teen with a job needs a phone)



Most budget issues that I have seen debated on this board usually come down to individual circumstances. Not every house being foreclosed on is because someone over extended themselves. Not everyone that is unable to pay their mortgage is just looking for a handout. Not everyone that spends $X on groceries is "wasting money" just because someone else in another corner of the country that can be home to fix all from scratch meals spends half that much. And not every cell is a total luxury.

 

[punkin]

Everyone keeps saying that a cell phone is a luxury. And I do agree that, for the most part, teens having a phone can be a luxury and for some adults it is a luxury. But what some of you seem unable to see, is that its not a luxury for everyone.

At what point does something stop being a luxury? I mean, years ago just having indoor plumbing was a luxury; electricity was a luxury at one point; not too many year ago having a land line phone was a luxury and a home computer was only for the really "well to do". All of these things are now considered a need. (and yes, if you have a kid in school, are going to college yourself, or are looking for a job; a computer with the internet is a need)

We say "grandpa did without it". Yep, my mom lived without indoor plumbing, without electricity, no medical or dental care and a diet of only the cheapest food or what they could grow. Does that mean I want to live that way: no. Or does that even mean we would suggest that these people who are "almost homeless" should live that way? No. But mom survived and is a quite healthy 74 year old.

When dh and I first married we didn't have a land line phone for years. If we needed to make a call, we went to mom's and borrowed the phone and we gave their number and "please, leave a message" on job applications. Would that work now? Probably not.

When he got the job he has now and we knew he had to have a cell, we then compared having a land line to adding a cell for me. It was cheaper to add a cell to the plan than to pay for a land line. So that was the choice we made. DD now has a phone, free phone, unlimited text (and we get no free lunches) for $19.99 per month. My cell replaces a land line in the house. The only actual "luxury" phone we have is dd's.


Its as though our society is making a cell phone a necessity. Many coaches, organization leaders, teachers, etc. like to text their students needed information. Schools text emergency information to parents (like if the school is closing due to weather). Pay phones are not available so if a person's car breaks down or has a flat, what to do? (and where I live, walking to the nearest phone is not always an option). Many job places (like fast food, etc.) also like to text their employees their schedule for the week (which would go back to whether a teen with a job needs a phone)



Most budget issues that I have seen debated on this board usually come down to individual circumstances. Not every house being foreclosed on is because someone over extended themselves. Not everyone that is unable to pay their mortgage is just looking for a handout. Not everyone that spends $X on groceries is "wasting money" just because someone else in another corner of the country that can be home to fix all from scratch meals spends half that much. And not every cell is a total luxury.

Actually I think that in the eyes of some people, if you are poor and ask for help, you should be living without anything other than basic shelter and cheap carb-heavy food. Now I don't necessarily agree with that. In fact, I lean a lot more toward your point of view, but I can certainly see the other side as well.

As for the OP, I think a blanket policy of "if you have a cell phone, we won't help you" is silly. Cases should be decided on an individual basis.

 

[OceanAnnie]

I don't know. I don't think the debate is whether a cell phone is a necessity or not. I think the debate is can a family make it on a lesser cell phone plan or a free one.

I think they can and I don't think it's a harsh POV.

 

[leahjade]

It is easy for those of us not in need of these programs to judge.

And it would be totally none of our business except for the fact that we (the fewer and fewer of us) who pay taxes are funding the top of the line cellphone and cable tv plans, game systems, nice cars etc. Meanwhile we are each working two jobs (and our children as well!) just to be able to afford our frugal way of life and ever increasing tax burden.
You are welcome to buy someone an expensive cell phone and designer clothes with YOUR money, but I resent spending my tax dollars on things for others that my family refuses to go into debt to have.

 

[saveaquarter]

No, these threads are about expectations and entitlements.

I get that people struggle. I give over 10% of my income to charity, volunteer, and counsel many people. It does get a little frustrating when you deliver food to people who live in a nicer house and have 3 nicer cars than yours.

The question to me if that if you are on the dole should you be allowed to maintain a level of luxury that many working people can't afford. When you get past all the psychological crap and the teenage self esteem issues that is the point.

I was taught very clearly that "beggars can't be choosers" I have no shame in taking assistance, but would never expect to have other people support me without doing everything and giving up everything that was not an absolute necessity to human survival.

There is no magic government that pays these people. It comes out of the pocket of every working person and out of the debt that our children will inherit. Whether it goes to welfare queens, McMansion owners, defense contractors, or corporate bigshots it is all down the drain when there is no personal responsibility or accountability.

As Dave Ramsey has aptly said, there is an ancient word that can solve most of our problems. You rarely hear it, and it hurts, but you need to say it. That word is NO!!!

I think you're missing what that phrase means.

 

[crisi]

Everyone keeps saying that a cell phone is a luxury. And I do agree that, for the most part, teens having a phone can be a luxury and for some adults it is a luxury. But what some of you seem unable to see, is that its not a luxury for everyone.

I don't think its a luxury. However, I think anything more than a pay as you go plan that you don't use except for necessities is a luxury.

But I'm a little aghast at the thought that teachers would text their students to give them information. Receiving texts costs money, and teachers should be aware that not all students have cells, can afford cells, or can afford to get texts on the cells they have.

 

[eliza61]

Most budget issues that I have seen debated on this board usually come down to individual circumstances. Not every house being foreclosed on is because someone over extended themselves. Not everyone that is unable to pay their mortgage is just looking for a handout. Not everyone that spends $X on groceries is "wasting money" just because someone else in another corner of the country that can be home to fix all from scratch meals spends half that much. And not every cell is a total luxury.

Actually I think that in the eyes of some people, if you are poor and ask for help, you should be living without anything other than basic shelter and cheap carb-heavy food. Now I don't necessarily agree with that. In fact, I lean a lot more toward your point of view, but I can certainly see the other side as well.

.

Very, very much true. I am always amazed at how many people hear always know some one on welfare who is buying designer clothes, living in mansions and taking fabulous vacations.
The first thing I learned when I started volunteering was, there are a myrid of reasons why people find themselves in trouble. As another poster said, Every person on welfare is not a lazy welfare queen waiting to take all our money and some people honestly due lose their homes even after doing every thing right and did not buy 4000 square foot mansions.

That's the one thing I quickly learned from volunteering. All those sterotypes and tv stories that make us feel so judgemental and superior don't even begin to tell the real story.

But I'm a little aghast at the thought that teachers would text their students to give them information. Receiving texts costs money, and teachers should be aware that not all students have cells, can afford cells, or can afford to get texts on the cells they have.

Most colleges are now using cell phones as primary communications. when the both blizzards hit the East coast both of my children (1 college and 1 h.s.) were told of school closings via texts. My sons football coach communicates almost 100% of the time via text.

 

[punkin]

That's the one thing I quickly learned from volunteering. All those sterotypes and tv stories that make us feel so judgemental and superior don't even begin to tell the real story.

Most colleges are now using cell phones as primary communications. when the both blizzards hit the East coast both of my children (1 college and 1 h.s.) were told of school closings via texts. My sons football coach communicates almost 100% of the time via text.

¥ou know, my family was on welfare for a short time when I was a child, and believe me we did not have designer clothes or steaks for dinner. Everyone on this board seems to know someone who is cheating the system in some way, but when I was IN the system, we barely had enough to survive.

The cell phone thing is, in part, a product of the Virginia Tech shootings. Texting is bar none the fastest and easiest way to get out a quick alert on a spread out college campus. If they had the texting system set up at VT at the time of the shootings, a lot of people would have been saved. In that case, a cell phone with texting is a matter of life and death.