Disturbing Issue

[connorlevismom]

So you just handed them a credit card ? Something isn't adding up here. Have you checked with you spouse, if applicable.

Yes, we gave her our credit card number. I am not saying we did not sign anything, we may have I don't remember. But we got nothing from them to reference.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Yes, we gave her our credit card number. I am not saying we did not sign anything, we may have I don't remember. But we got nothing from them to reference.

First, I don't think it's exactly the right procedure for them to have but others have posted that they learned about getting points they waitlisted for in a similar manner. But the above is the slightly confusing part because why would you give the card number to them? There's no way I would unless I was buying. If I gave a card number I'd just consider myself to have been a party in the whole mix up and cancel and go on.

Perhaps it's giving DVC a pass but I just wouldn't have given my CC number out to a timeshare sales person which is all that they are.

 

[JimMIA]

My bet is, somewhere in the paperwork you signed, you authorized them to put a charge on your card to hold a waitlist purchase. That $4,700 charge looks like 20%-25% of a 150 point contract at $130-$135 per point.

I'm not sure what good it does to speculate. None of us know what happened, and probably OP herself is not completely clear.

But trying to make what little we know into a "Disney can do no wrong" assumption is pretty shaky, IMHO. There is obviously something wrong here.

But if we are going to speculate, I have two theories. The first -- which I think is most likely -- is that it's a simple mistake. Some paperwork went through that shouldn't have, the credit card was charged, and points magically appeared in OP's account.

Theory #2 is that our girl Kristy was behind her sales quota and threw some paperwork into the mill, which created a mess but got Kristy paid. I'd like to think that wouldn't happen, because that would be fraud.

Unless they opened a mortgage in your name, I just don't think it's a big deal.

I'd love to hear the logic behind that statement.

It's okay to charge $4,700 -- and receive payment of $4,700 -- without authorization? But somehow, it's not really a problem unless you also create a fictitious mortgage for the other $15,000 you are assuming is involved? Is there some threshold of $20,000 or so before it's a problem to steal?

Of course, I'd check the Orange County deed records to see if they actually filed something for you. If that happened, then I'd agree that it's a bigger deal.

No offense, but legally, you have this exactly backwards.

The fact that DVC, in fact, deposited points into OP's account is prima facie evidence that they had no criminal intent to defraud OP. If they filed a deed, that would be further evidence that this is just a mistake.

OTOH -- if they charged the OP $4,700 without authorization, AND gave nothing in return -- no points, no deed, nothing -- that would be the start of proving criminal intent to defraud. They would be taking her money with no intention of providing anything in return.

That's obviously NOT what happened here.

 

[disneynutz]

Stuff happens, at Disney more than you will ever know about, nobody's perfect.

To the OP, make sure that you file the paperwork to rescind your non-existing contract and make sure that they credit your CC account in a timely fashion.

Bill

 

[LisaS]

I go online and under my vacation points there is a new 150 point contract that I never purchased! And of those 150 points, only 121 are available and the used amount says 29.

Did you get an answer to why your new 150 point contract that you didn't even know you had, had 29 points already used?

 

[supersnoop]

But trying to make what little we know into a "Disney can do no wrong" assumption is pretty shaky, IMHO. There is obviously something wrong here.

That's a interesting attempt to construct a false argument. Who said, or even implied that "Disney can do no wrong?" I listed at least two things that the did do wrong.

Theory #2 is that our girl Kristy was behind her sales quota and threw some paperwork into the mill, which created a mess but got Kristy paid. I'd like to think that wouldn't happen, because that would be fraud.I'd love to hear the logic behind that statement.

Sales reps don't get paid until it closes. Nothing closed here. It's pretty clear that it was some sort of deposit.

It's okay to charge $4,700 -- and receive payment of $4,700 -- without authorization? But somehow, it's not really a problem unless you also create a fictitious mortgage for the other $15,000 you are assuming is involved? Is there some threshold of $20,000 or so before it's a problem to steal?

Likely, they had authorization to collect a deposit prior to completing the sale. In that case, yes, they would have to commit fraud before this would be stealing.

No offense, but legally, you have this exactly backwards.

The fact that DVC, in fact, deposited points into OP's account is prima facie evidence that they had no criminal intent to defraud OP. If they filed a deed, that would be further evidence that this is just a mistake.

Based on your use of "prima facia," I'm going to assume I can ignore any legal reasoning on your part. If they filed a deed, which would require forging a signature, then it would demonstrate criminal intent. Without a deed, this falls into the mistake category, with "failure to follow-up" as the biggest error.

 

[J and R's mom]

Count me in the "find this disturbing" crowd.

I get that "miscommunications" and "mistakes" happen, but making a $4700 mistake/miscommunication on MY credit card without my explicit consent falls into my "disturbing" category.

To the OP, I'm glad to hear they are "fixing" this. And thank you for posting this. It's a great cautionary tale for the rest of us.

 

[Dean]

Yes, we gave her our credit card number. I am not saying we did not sign anything, we may have I don't remember. But we got nothing from them to reference.

There are lots of variables here and likely lots we don't know. Overall I'm going to take an in between approach. Basically that it's a big deal but not that big of a deal. I'm sure you know that giving the a CC without being clear on expectations was a large mistake. If this were MX you could own half the resort by now. However, by asking for points and giving them a CC, I can see this happening as a normal practice. To me the lack of communication is really the issue, not the deposit or potential purchase. Just call the sales office and talk to your guide then if needed, a supervisor. They should be able to make any changes and likely change your purchase if your set on your needs. Or tell you how to cancel if they can't do it directly at the time. It'll likely take a month or so to see the credit on your CC bill and you very well may have to pay that bill or incur interest charges as applicable. Let us know how things go.

 

[connorlevismom]

There are lots of variables here and likely lots we don't know. Overall I'm going to take an in between approach. Basically that it's a big deal but not that big of a deal. I'm sure you know that giving the a CC without being clear on expectations was a large mistake. If this were MX you could own half the resort by now. However, by asking for points and giving them a CC, I can see this happening as a normal practice. To me the lack of communication is really the issue, not the deposit or potential purchase. Just call the sales office and talk to your guide then if needed, a supervisor. They should be able to make any changes and likely change your purchase if your set on your needs. Or tell you how to cancel if they can't do it directly at the time. It'll likely take a month or so to see the credit on your CC bill and you very well may have to pay that bill or incur interest charges as applicable. Let us know how things go.

I actually somewhat agree with you. However my issues are the following:

1. We never told her exactly how many points we wanted, so how could she assume that we wanted 150 points?

2. If their policy was to purchase points if they become available, fine, then it would have been my mistake. However, she called me and told me that some points had opened up (not mentioning how many or UY of these points) and told me to call her back if I wanted to move forward. I never did, because I was not interested in moving forward.

So my issue is that even though I never called her back and told her to move forward, she did it anyway. So clearly their policy is not just to purchase points right when they come available because that is not what happened. She called me and asked me to call her back and let her know if I wanted them. When I did not call her back, she went ahead and purchased them for me anyway, without my consent. THAT is an issue.

I did get a call back from my guide who gave me the same kind of "not a big deal" talk. He could see in the notes that I had been in and talked to Kristy and when I pushed him to tell me how many points I was looking for during that visit, he had no answer and blew me off with the "it's not a big deal, we can just cancel it'.

 

[Nanajo1]

I don't know why they are called guides. They are salespeople. Some are very nice and develop a relationship but they are trying to sell you something. The cavalier attitude is outrageous. No big deal to them but you have to cover the charges until they are cleared.

 

[drusba]

Just now read this thread. OP, to assure you have a written record of what has occurred and that you have no sale, you should send a letter explaining in detail what has occurred and cancelling any sale that may have occurred. That letter should be sent to:

Disney Vacation Development, Inc.
200 Celebration Place
Celebration, Florida, 34747

Attn: Membership Administration

Rest assured, you do not yet have a contract for sale that cannot be cancelled. You have until 10 days after both of the following events occur to cancel any timeshare sale through DVD: (a) you actually receive and sign the purchase agreement for the sale; (b) you have received the official documents for the sale including the Declarations and multi-state documents (both very thick). Since you would undoubtedly remember those two events if they occurred, you have no issue as to whether there is an enforceable sale.

As to DVD's charging your credit card as if a sale occurred, there is one issue that makes the difference: Did you agree either orally or by signing some document to allow DVD Sales to charge your credit card if it found a sale that might be something you were looking for. You state you did give them your credit card number and might have signed something but did not get a copy, and thus I will leave open for now the actual answer to that question because this could be just an issue of the sales rep not explaining something enough, which should not occur and should be corrected, but not something criminal.

If you, in fact, did not authorize that credit card charge, then it is a serious matter. I see comments above taking different positons including the lack of "criminal" intent. The reality is that if someone makes an "unauthorized" charge to your credit card, it is either a misdemeanor or felony depending on amount (a felony for your $4700 charge). The only "criminal" intent needed is that the person who made the charge knew it was not authorized. The fact that you would get the money back upon cancellation of any sale may be a factor considered in determining what the punishment should be for the crime, but for whether the crime was committed, it is irrelevant. Also, if this a practice approved by upper DVD management and not just some creation of an idiot sales manager, then DVD itself could face charges and the possible loss of license to sell timeshares.

 

[Dean]

I actually somewhat agree with you. However my issues are the following:

1. We never told her exactly how many points we wanted, so how could she assume that we wanted 150 points?

2. If their policy was to purchase points if they become available, fine, then it would have been my mistake. However, she called me and told me that some points had opened up (not mentioning how many or UY of these points) and told me to call her back if I wanted to move forward. I never did, because I was not interested in moving forward.

So my issue is that even though I never called her back and told her to move forward, she did it anyway. So clearly their policy is not just to purchase points right when they come available because that is not what happened. She called me and asked me to call her back and let her know if I wanted them. When I did not call her back, she went ahead and purchased them for me anyway, without my consent. THAT is an issue.

I did get a call back from my guide who gave me the same kind of "not a big deal" talk. He could see in the notes that I had been in and talked to Kristy and when I pushed him to tell me how many points I was looking for during that visit, he had no answer and blew me off with the "it's not a big deal, we can just cancel it'.

The problem is that you stated you wanted points and you gave them a CC, a certain amount of intent can be implied. I must assume that there was some up front discussion about the range of points you were looking for even if not a strict agreement on the number. I look at it a little like walking on a car lot looking at new cars and they pull your credit report which they can do. From the guide's side she might have been in the dilemma of losing your points if she hadn't done this, knowing it could be changed or canceled later if you didn't want it. I still think it's a medium deal (at most), not a big one or small one. And it's a fixable one, certainly not worth getting worked up over.

 

[JimMIA]

If you, in fact, did not authorize that credit card charge, then it is a serious matter. I see comments above taking different positons including the lack of "criminal" intent. The reality is that if someone makes an "unauthorized" charge to your credit card, it is either a misdemeanor or felony depending on amount (a felony for your $4700 charge). The only "criminal" intent needed is that the person who made the charge knew it was not authorized.

In Florida, theft is a specific intent crime and the State would have to prove that the guide knowingly intended to deprive OP of $4,700. Whether they were deprived permanently or temporarily is irrelevant -- if you steal a car for a joyride, you still stole the car. If you give the money back when you get caught, you still stole the money.

But the known facts here argue against any such intent. Yes, $4,700 was charged to her credit card, but at the same time Disney deposited 150 points -- worth FAR more than $4,700 -- into her account. Obviously, there is no intent to deprive her of anything; in fact, she received far more value than the charge.

I still think DVD did the wrong thing here, and I think it's kind of a big deal. But I guarantee you any Assistant State Attorney in Florida would laugh you out of their office if you brought them a case seeking prosecution with these facts.

Also, if this a practice approved by upper DVD management and not just some creation of an idiot sales manager, then DVD itself could face charges and the possible loss of license to sell timeshares.

DVD is not going to be charged with anything with this fact set.

However, if this is an approved practice of DVD, OP should report them to the Timeshare Division of the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation. That is the licensing and regulatory agency for the timeshare industry in the State of Florida, and the appropriate agency for complaints regarding unscrupulous business practices.

 

[Sur]

But I guarantee you any Assistant State Attorney in Florida would laugh you out of their office if you brought them a case seeking prosecution with these facts.

Not much laughing in that office.

 

[connorlevismom]

I never said I wanted to press charges. What I do think is that it was wrong to charge something to my credit card. If you call and ask me for permission and I don't give it to you, you should not do it anyway. That is just how I feel. Clearly some agree and others don't think it is an issue.

 

[Disneyhappy]

I never said I wanted to press charges. What I do think is that it was wrong to charge something to my credit card. If you call and ask me for permission and I don't give it to you, you should not do it anyway. That is just how I feel. Clearly some agree and others don't think it is an issue.

I absolutely agree with you. I find it disturbing. Why bother calling to see if you were still interested if they didn't need your permission? I would understand the intent argument if they had not called to ask if you were still interested. A $4700 charge is a big deal, especially depending on what other charges you may be planning to make. Based on timing, college tuition comes to mind.

That said, I think it was a mistake and easily rectified. Accountability by Disney would be nice in the form of a simple apology instead the them blowing it off as if it is a non event. It was not a non event for you and has probably breached a level of trust you had with DVD.

 

[conandrob240]

This seems much more like a simple misunderstanding than fraud. And they will immediately credit your cc back so it really truly is no big deal.

On another note, "Kristy" is working in a professional capacity for DVC so I highly doubt she is a "girl".

 

[tjkraz]

I find it disturbing. Why bother calling to see if you were still interested if they didn't need your permission?

At the same time, why provide credit card information if follow-up communication was still necessary to confirm the deal?

Legalities aside, this sounds like a misunderstanding to me. Perhaps there was malicious intent on "Kristie's" behalf--thinking she would be closer to making a sale by just processing the payment. Or it could be an honest mistake where she confused specifics with another client. Or she may have thought she was acting in OP's best interest by locking-in the points when they came available rather than risk having them sold to another buyer.

As long as the cancellation and refund were processed in a timely manner, I don't think I would be too troubled. (Personally I would have been VERY reluctant to provide my CC in the first place, and would only have done so if we had a specific understanding regarding when/where/why/how it would be charged.)

 

[apple9117]

I'd be furious if I got charged something on my credit card without my approval. I agree though that it seems like a misunderstanding. I'm sure Disney can fix this quickly.

 

[beer dave]

I think that if you call a big fuss, maybe they will let you keep the 150 points for a one time use..... that would probably ease your disappointment.