Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[Dean]

I agree Dean. We could drop our price and sell alot more quickly. Our agent suggested if we did this we would get a quicker sale. But...as I mentioned, since we have no plans to use our OKW this year (have AKV and SSR developer points to use).....we can sit on it a little longer. It's not costing us anything....we're not losing anything at this point. I appreciate your input.

A valid approach but not the one of someone upset and looking to get out from under a given contract. Your initial post on this subject made me think you had decided to sell because you were upset at the change. Now I realize you're taking a different approach, that of divesting a given contract if you get enough for it, one I had taken with my BWV contract.

 

[DVCGeek]

As noted before, I do think BLT and other new member buyers have some reason to be upset if they fit into the window where the bought, couldn't get out and DVC changed the rules before they could even reserve.

I definitely feel bad for that group, but hopefully it is very small! When I joined DVC in Oct. 2008 w/ BLT as my home my guide made it VERY clear that although it had only happened once and wasn't very likely point charts COULD change and that it was possible for everything to go to "Dream Season" rates all year and/or for differences between weeknights and weekends to change or everything to theoretically eventually go to a single rate every day of the year.

So while I didn't expect the change, I felt I was warned it could happen and advised to make sure I had enough points "just in case", rather than count things out to a single point, ESPECIALLY if planning for regular banking / borrowing (I was contemplating starting w/ 100 points @ AKV and every so often trying to B/B to get a MK view studio @ BLT). My hope is that other guides, especially for recent purchases, were equally forthcoming.

 

[MiaSRN62]

A valid approach but not the one of someone upset and looking to get out from under a given contract.

If I didn't have AKV and my SSR developer points to fall back on this year, I would be more aggressive in selling. So you might not see my actions as those of someone who is as upset as you perceive, but.....had the reallocation not come along, I probably wouldn't even be talking about selling OKW. I don't know. It was tossed around between dh and I, but the reallocation just sank it in for us. Not selling this year is not holding us up any-----now if I'm unable to sell it by this time next year, I will get more aggressive.

We purchased OKW back in 2000, thinking 30 points per night for a 2 bedroom on a weeknight in Magic season was great. Now, we don't feel 36 points per night is as good a deal. IOW, the low points per night were a big selling feature with us. It's not coming out like that for us now at 30 points additional per year required for our stays. Thus the appeal of OKW has lessened for us. I can get a bright new shiny resort with longer years on the contract (AKV) for just about the same amount of points for their 2 bedroom in Magic Season.

We used to say about OKW : it's ok we don't have valet parking, rooms a littlle dated, no room service, no concierge, no indoor corridors, not more impressive themeing, less food options etc......because I'm getting a 2 bedroom villa for only 30 points/night. All these issues were more easily dismissed at 30 points a night. Now it's 36 points for that same 2 bedroom villa at OKW. Now I can get a 2 bedroom at AKV for the same season for actually less @ 35 points. Doesn't mean DVC isn't for me anymore.....just OKW isn't for us anymore.....

So when we look at the whole picture, while we still enjoy our stays at OKW, it just doesn't seem quite as worth it to me as it did a year ago. And this is why we would like to sell. As I stated before, had we known about the reallocation a mere 90 days before we purchased our AKV add-on, we would have purchased double the amount of points there we did. This is what irks me. Disney had to have known they were going to announce the reallocation of points and left people like us in the dark. AKV points can't even be used yet. So I felt we deserved to know earlier, same as BLT owners. Dh and I would have felt like disney was alot more timely and upfront with us if they had announced it earlier than they did. We would have planned a whole lot differently than we did. So just a little "grrr" on disney. And of course, as always, this is just my personal opinion and may not be shared by another DVC Member anywhere.....I get that I'm just a grain of sand in the DVC ocean.

Maria

 

[Dean]

I get that I'm just a grain of sand in the DVC ocean.

Maria

As are we all to a degree but it doesn't really have any bearing on this issue.

 

[Mick West]

It's cool, we're just batting it around and I suspect saying much the same things in a different way for most of this. However, I don't see how anyone can be upset with DVC on principle unless they feel it was wrong of them to make the change. They could certainly be upset at their bad luck, to me, that's different. As noted before, I do think BLT and other new member buyers have some reason to be upset if they fit into the window where the bought, couldn't get out and DVC changed the rules before they could even reserve.

Wow - Dean and I finally agree on something! I feel it is/was wrong for the change being made and upset at my bad luck. I fully realize this DVC ownership ain't like being in the Micky Mouse Club. "Owners" are just a number to Disney and I realize that. They have a captive customer base of 2 or 3 hundred thousand and what's the worst case a member can do? Sell? This does nothing to them as someone else just fills the void. Rent/Transfer - To them it's still just feet on the property, spending money. Not go. They would love this - then they can rent the units! And what I really don't get is how this change will have much of an effect. Week days are still much lower than weekends. I won't now include a weekend in my stay just because the weekend points lowered a bit. I will still go on Saturday, stay off site in a very nice and reasonably priced room and check in early Sunday morning and hit the parks. My guess is that the next change will come much sooner than we'd like. This change won't do much so they will have to get together and come up with another plan that is "best for all".

 

[dianeschlicht]

I agree Dean. We could drop our price and sell alot more quickly. Our agent suggested if we did this we would get a quicker sale. But...as I mentioned, since we have no plans to use our OKW this year (have AKV and SSR developer points to use).....we can sit on it a little longer. It's not costing us anything....we're not losing anything at this point. I appreciate your input.

Well, it IS costing you something....a year of maintenance fees for points you wont be using. The advantage to that is the fact that you will then have a "loaded contract" next year if you end up with it that long.

 

[DaveH]

I think one thing just about everyone agrees on DVC did a lousy job of communicating the change. It seems Disney in general and DVC for sure has had this kind of problem for years now. I doubt that enough of us will just go and used the villas and not go into the parks. A large % of us not spending money in the parks is what would get WDW Co's attention.

 

[dianeschlicht]

I think one thing just about everyone agrees on DVC did a lousy job of communicating the change. It seems Disney in general and DVC for sure has had this kind of problem for years now. I doubt that enough of us will just go and used the villas and not go into the parks. A large % of us not spending money in the parks is what would get WDW Co's attention.

That non-communication is nothing new for DVC. I've come to expect it. There is no way I would go to WDW and not go to the parks though. That's the whole reason I purchased DVC, and so I'll go with the flow.

 

[DaveH]

That non-communication is nothing new for DVC. I've come to expect it. There is no way I would go to WDW and not go to the parks though. That's the whole reason I purchased DVC, and so I'll go with the flow.

I agree, I was pointing out the way we could get Disney's attention. We joined in May 2001. I remember the parks being very empty in late Nov 2001, our first trip home. I honestly believe the answers they got from the surveys in 2002 and 2003 got the ticket discount to annual passes. Until I read this thread I did not realize that more folks did sun to Fri trips. I did see a difference in levels at resorts in the last couple of years. I guess I was slow noticing this and just enjoying our stays. We bought at 150 points. We have added on twice and I do not see no more add ons for us. We just decide when we will like to go each year and see what we can do with our points. We are empty nesters with no grand kids. At first I was trying to understand the high emotion here. I think I finally understand it now.

 

[Mick West]

I agree, I was pointing out the way we could get Disney's attention. We joined in May 2001. I remember the parks being very empty in late Nov 2001, our first trip home. I honestly believe the answers they got from the surveys in 2002 and 2003 got the ticket discount to annual passes. Until I read this thread I did not realize that more folks did sun to Fri trips. I did see a difference in levels at resorts in the last couple of years. I guess I was slow noticing this and just enjoying our stays. We bought at 150 points. We have added on twice and I do not see no more add ons for us. We just decide when we will like to go each year and see what we can do with our points. We are empty nesters with no grand kids. At first I was trying to understand the high emotion here. I think I finally understand it now.

We also became a member about 9 years ago and have seen a significant increase in the amount of traffic during the slower times, which I'm assuming is in large part due to the growth of DVC. So I fully expect that the next change will be another reallocation of points and a change to the "seasonal" point distribution. The low points times will shrink, decreasing further the overall worth of our points contracts. They've got us now and we are a built in cash cow.

 

[DVCGeek]

The low points times will shrink, decreasing further the overall worth of our points contracts. They've got us now and we are a built in cash cow.

How could they do that? The total number of points for a year is fixed, so to "shrink" one area they'd have to balance that with increasing another & vice-versa...

 

[DaveH]

Mick, remember the total number of points for each resort can not be increased overall without adding rooms. If they make a season longer that cost more the cheaper season or another season that is cheaper to increase. I understand many bought a certain number of points for a certain season for so many days. Many of those had the value decrease. Others who travel at a different time had their value increase. They can decrease the number of seasons, but the total number of points for that resort per year can not change. More points have been added to SSR due to the addition of the treehouse villas. More villas available. I know the majority of the folks posting on this thread have had their value decreased. Many who had their value increase have nothing to say. We break even for the most part. We do not have much of a set time or length of stays. I expect one of our favorite times to increase sometime in the future. I am talking the first 2 weeks of Dec. I am sorry but the blanket statement that everyone's value has decrease is not totally true. To most on this thread they have. You included in that. This change like many others over the years we both have seen, means we have to evaluate it and decide what is best for each of us to do.

 

[DVCGeek]

They can decrease the number of seasons, but the total number of points for that resort per year can not change. More points have been added to SSR due to the addition of the treehouse villas. More villas available.

Isn't it that the total number for a given type of room per year can't change? That was how my guide explained it- I believe she said 'total points in a [vertical] column are fixed for the year'. Similar in concept to owning 1 week for a certain type of room in a traditional timeshare, a week is always a week, or 1/52nd of that unit. Similarly, x points is 1/y per year for that unit, and the amount each point is per year is what I thought couldn't change. The number of days that number of points get you at a particular time certainly can (and in this case did) change, BUT the fraction of a year averaged out can not.

When you add on more rooms, they might have to be a separate class, thus part of the reason Treehouse Villas have a separate column on the point charts? Either that, or each room might have to be identical in points per year for the existing rooms of that class (For a studio of 8,700 points / year means that adding 10 new studios requires adding another 87,000 salable points (perhaps minus 2%?) to the resort overall...)

 

[MiaSRN62]

I know the majority of the folks posting on this thread have had their value decreased. Many who had their value increase have nothing to say. We break even for the most part.

It is the people, like me, who will be coming up 30 points short every year that feel a decrease in value. But when I've said this over the past weeks....or is it months now we've been talking about this, I am totally referring to that decrease in value as a personal one to us. I don't feel DVC's value has gone down overall. Rather, just how it is for our personal usage with specifically OKW. My points were affected at AKV too, but not nearly to as large a degree.

I feel new people buying in (those just discovering DVC), won't even know the difference. They may not have never known that 2 bedroom villas at OKW in the summer used to go for 30 points a night for Sun-Thurs. They are coming in and seeing the 36 points a night now and able to make an informed decision whether they think OKW is worth that per night. I'm looking at it from a totally different perspective. Having paid 30 points per night for our 2 bedroom at OKW for years, and now seeing I will be paying 36/night, makes an impact in my thoughts about this situation.

I look at my AKV ownership and see I can actually pay 1 point less per night there for a 2 bedroom Sun-Thurs in the summer. I just wonder if more will see this and think why not pay a little less for a 2 bedroom in a brand new resort ? OKW already had some more difficulty keeping herself booked (along with SSR). These were always the two resorts that were more likely to have vacancies.

Now I wonder if the new point reallocation will make it even harder for OKW ? I know I plan to use my points to stay at AKV over OKW since it's one point less per weeknight and 6 points LESS per weekend. I'm getting a more modern and lushly decorated room with more amenities the resort has to offer. I'm getting 3 bathrooms (at Kidani) vs 2 at OKW. I'm getting the ability to sleep an additional guest in the sleeper chair.

So I just feel the incentive (or personal value for me) is now taken away as far as using my points at OKW and thus why I wish to sell. Time will tell, if this point reallocation jump at OKW will help or hurt it in way of keeping it booked in Magic season. I just feel AKV has more to offer guests and they will see this. I could be wrong. So I hope some can see a little bit more why I'm a bit disappointed with such a large point jump at OKW starting 2010. If you can't....that's perfectly ok. I totally get DVD had to and had the right to do this.



Maria

 

[Mick West]

Mick, remember the total number of points for each resort can not be increased overall without adding rooms. If they make a season longer that cost more the cheaper season or another season that is cheaper to increase. I understand many bought a certain number of points for a certain season for so many days. Many of those had the value decrease. Others who travel at a different time had their value increase. They can decrease the number of seasons, but the total number of points for that resort per year can not change. More points have been added to SSR due to the addition of the treehouse villas. More villas available. I know the majority of the folks posting on this thread have had their value decreased. Many who had their value increase have nothing to say. We break even for the most part. We do not have much of a set time or length of stays. I expect one of our favorite times to increase sometime in the future. I am talking the first 2 weeks of Dec. I am sorry but the blanket statement that everyone's value has decrease is not totally true. To most on this thread they have. You included in that. This change like many others over the years we both have seen, means we have to evaluate it and decide what is best for each of us to do.

Could they not eliminate the low point season (Adventure I think it's called) and redistribute those points into the four remaining seasons, thus increasing the points needed during each of those seasons? If that could happen wouldn't everyone's "value" decrease?

 

[doconeill]

Could they not eliminate the low point season (Adventure I think it's called) and redistribute those points into the four remaining seasons, thus increasing the points needed during each of those seasons? If that could happen wouldn't everyone's "value" decrease?

You can't eliminate the dates in Adventure season...those would have to go somewhere else.

To eliminate Adventure season, those dates would have to be absorbed by other seasons. Then you'd take all the points that were tied up in Adventure season dates and whatever season it merged with, and have to reallocated them. In principle, they would average out with the new season lowering in points.

If you "eliminated" Premiere season, the opposite would happen. On average the merged season would be higher.

In theory, they could eliminate all seasons and have one point level. It would never happen because the seasons are based on demand - but demand DOES shift...

 

[tjkraz]

Wow - Dean and I finally agree on something! I feel it is/was wrong for the change being made and upset at my bad luck. I fully realize this DVC ownership ain't like being in the Micky Mouse Club. "Owners" are just a number to Disney and I realize that. They have a captive customer base of 2 or 3 hundred thousand and what's the worst case a member can do? Sell? This does nothing to them as someone else just fills the void.

True but DVC wants to continue selling points for decades to come. I don't think we will see them running roughshod over members just because they can. At least not if they intend to continue selling points.

Rent/Transfer - To them it's still just feet on the property, spending money.

Overall Disney's isn't enamored with rentals because it hurts their own business. It's a little harder to demand $400 per night for a room when guests can "rent" the same room from a DVC member for $150 per night.

Not go. They would love this - then they can rent the units!

Disney doesn't benefit from this. They can only rent rooms for profit equivalent to the number of points they hold at a resort.

If rooms are going unbooked because members aren't using their points, the revenues will go as a credit to member dues. It appears under the heading of "breakage."

And what I really don't get is how this change will have much of an effect. Week days are still much lower than weekends. I won't now include a weekend in my stay just because the weekend points lowered a bit. I will still go on Saturday, stay off site in a very nice and reasonably priced room and check in early Sunday morning and hit the parks.

Even if you still follow the same pattern (Sunday - Thursday stays), you are using more points for each stay. In and of itself, that creates more weekday capacity at the resorts.

And to be blunt...you are only one person. Others WILL change their patterns as a result of the reallocation.

My guess is that the next change will come much sooner than we'd like. This change won't do much so they will have to get together and come up with another plan that is "best for all".

Well, I do think it will have an impact. If your points previously would buy you 15 weekdays per year and now you can only get 13 per year, then added capacity has been created. Some other member can step in and take those other nights.

And when you spread those effects over hundreds-of-thousands of members and millions of points, things will certainly change.

That said, a change to the seasons wouldn't surprise me one bit. early-December has been under-priced for just as long as the weekends have been over-priced. We'll just have to wait and see if DVC makes more changes for 2011 or waits longer than that.

 

[Mick West]

You can't eliminate the dates in Adventure season...those would have to go somewhere else.

To eliminate Adventure season, those dates would have to be absorbed by other seasons. Then you'd take all the points that were tied up in Adventure season dates and whatever season it merged with, and have to reallocated them. In principle, they would average out with the new season lowering in points.



If you "eliminated" Premiere season, the opposite would happen. On average the merged season would be higher.

In theory, they could eliminate all seasons and have one point level. It would never happen because the seasons are based on demand - but demand DOES shift...

I must be missing something. The current season weekly points at BCV for a 1br (Low to High) is 200/214/252/270/350. If the eliminated this season, moving the dates to a newly created 4 seasons that would be the current point totals for those four PLUS the 1286 point from the eliminated season, thus increasing the point allocation, not lowering it. I think if you eliminated any season and moved those dates to a newly structured 4 season calendar the points would increase.

I agree with the fact that the first two weeks of Dec will change. I'm really surprised it hasn't since that's my favorite time to go!

 

[doconeill]

I must be missing something. The current season weekly points at BCV for a 1br (Low to High) is 200/214/252/270/350. If the eliminated this season, moving the dates to a newly created 4 seasons that would be the current point totals for those four PLUS the 1286 point from the eliminated season, thus increasing the point allocation, not lowering it. I think if you eliminated any season and moved those dates to a newly structured 4 season calendar the points would increase.

I agree with the fact that the first two weeks of Dec will change. I'm really surprised it hasn't since that's my favorite time to go!

You are missing the fact that yes, the total number of points in the season went up, but so did the number of dates you need to spread those points across...

 

[The Prophet]

DVC fails to take into account that some members such as myself will change their vacation plans to continue to maximize their point value.

This year a 2 bedroom at Saratoga Springs was 175 points during President's week.
Next year, the same accommodations increase to 192 points.

Since we don't do much on Sunday (aside from swimming and shopping) we will probably stay off-site and check in around 7:00 AM Monday morning.

This way a 17 point deficit becomes a 19 point surplus


The Prophet