Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[Brian Noble]

721.11 Advertising materials; oral statements

Proving this will be tricky particularly because Florida is a "two-party consent" state for recording conversations---you'd need your Guide's permission to record the sales meeting.

 

[MiaSRN62]

But when having to choose between decisions that determine the overall health of the program vs. making people feel good, DVC must side with the former.

Never said I didn't agree with this Tim. It's a business move for them---but not every business move DVC has made has been the best one. I dont think the switch to RCI is for the improvement of DVC's reputation. I feel II had a much better reputation and lineup of higher quality resorts. And I'm sure DVC made this change for what they felt was overall health. They're not always right though.......no business is. That is why so many go belly-up or claim bankruptcy. Again, not saying this will happen to DVC. But just trying to prove a point, that higher-ups are only human. They can make wrong decisions.
But also, to mention, there could be some ramifications for DVC in terms of Member satisfaction, future sales....positive word-of-mouth. I know I purchased via word-of-mouth. There will be some impact I'm sure, but most likely not devastating to DVC. This is just hitting people at a time when things are already bad with recession and job losses already. Granted, I know DIS polls hold no real snapshot of the real world, but when you combine those not happy (staying less days, staying elswhere and "other"), there are quite alot of people affected adversely by this. Granted, again, I understand it's healthy for the program.

 

[drusba]

Thank you. That's the language I was thinking about. Disney could have easily added a reference a to a more detailed explanation in the POS. The language you've quoted above, standing alone without benefit of the more specific terms of the POS, doesn't sound particularly ambiguous to me. If no other definitions are provided, I would think a consumer could reasonably infer commonly understood definitions for "season" (Disney or calendar) and "particular vacation home". When you combine this language with the fact that many of the guides have (apparently) explained the possible changes in the same way, I think that makes it fairly misleading. Does the Product Understanding Acknowledgement require the purchaser to acknowledge that he has read and understands the POS?

None of the documents you sign state your acknowledgement that you have read and understood the POS; you do sign a document that acknowledges your receipt of the POS. One thing is that the POS is considered something that is supposed to be given to you before you sign anything to aid in a decision to buy. If the contract, and documents signed at the same time as the contract, actually say something different from the POS, the signed documents should control over the POS if the buyer so desires, because the signed documents represent the final terms that you actually agreed to.

 

[tjkraz]

But are you not assuming there has been a "change" in demand patterns? Disney has been saying off and on since it began DVC that demand for weekdays is significantly higher than weekends. It is the demand pattern that has always existed because weekends were always higher than weekdays and thus built into the system as originally conceived. Thus, it would appear they are trying to change the long-existing pattern rather than basing an adjustment upon changes in demand patterns that have actually occurred.

My response to that would be if there were errors in balancing the points, they would appear to lie more in what we have had for the last 15 years than with these changes.

Anecdotal evidence clearly suggests that weekends are under-utilized at the resorts. 25% discounts are easy to come by (only available when sub-100% occupancy projected)...high demand for Sun - Thurs stays reported in forums like this one...demand for point rentals exclusively for Sun - Thurs...short notice reservations much easier on weekends (I myself booked a BCV studio for a Saturday in December on 3 months' notice about 3 years ago, also booked BWV Standard View for Friday on a month's notice.)

Debating whether they are trying to change demand patterns vs. respond to changes seems like an argument over whether a glass is half full or half empty. Demand for weekends / weekdays is not in sync with the current distribution and is therefore being adjusted.

 

[kristenrice]

I watched the DVC promo video again because I wanted to see how they worded the section about point usage.

"Patrick", the "pointologist", said....

"Here's the cool part....drum roll please....

The total number of points on this chart can never change. There may be adjustments for seasons and dates, but the overall total will not change for the life of your contract."

I would find this misleading as I do not associate "weekdays" and "weekends" as "seasons" or "dates". There is also the mention of using fewer points for weeknights and slower times. There is no mention that the points would be adjusted among the days of the week...i.e. a weeknight is always a weeknight.

For example, SUNDAY, April 5, 2009 is premiere season and is 41 points for a 2BR standard at AKV. Now, MONDAY, April 5 (same DATE, same SEASON, both weeknights) 2010 is now 46 points. There was not an adjustment for season OR date since they both remained the same. This is what has be a little concerned. I guess they are getting super-technical in that April 5, 2009 is not the same as April 5, 2010 and therefore they've adjusted for the "dates".

I am not saying what they did was "wrong" or "illegal", I just think that their own promotional material is extremely misleading in light of what has happened.

 

[MiaSRN62]

An adjustment was the only way of fixing that imbalance.

Yes Tim...but their timing was not right at all.....and I think this is the crux of what has alot of us upset (myself included). Never said in any of my posts the imbalance shouldn't be adjusted over time. Once again, I'll repeat, I always admitted to knowing allocation was a possibility.

This was a BIG adjustment with very little or even no head's up for recent buyers and add-ons. This is what in specific, has many of us quite disillusioned & feeling justified in griping a bit.

 

[ReneeQ]

will this change the way you plan your vacation days? In other words, if you used to only stay Sun-Thurs because of the really high points, are you considering weekend stays now?

I can only see where this might affect those DVC'ers who only stay Sun-Thurs - the others already book the weekends, so I can't imagine how this affects those.

It won't change anything for us. DH and I have been at our jobs a long time, and both get tons of vacation, he gets 5 weeks, I get 7. We don't have any kids, though sometimes take the nephews, so don't usually have to deal with school schedules. We love to go Sun-Fri because we don't have to contend with weekend park crowds. We work Fri, have Sat to get ready, head to Disney on Sun, come home on Fri, have a weekend at home before going back to work. Have done that for years and love it.

We own at BWV and VWL. We often stay in a 1BR standard view at BWV in Jan, Sun-Fri, through 2009 that was 80 points. Starting in 2010 it will be 95 points. That's ALREADY 15 more points that I usually use. HOW does it benefit me to add a weekend night?? (Not yelling at you, MickeyMom, just venting).

This is the thing I am missing here. If we decide to go on Mon (instead of Sun) and stay our 5 nights, checking out on Sat instead of Fri, the trip jumps to 109 points, which is 29 more points than the 5 night trip cost me in 2009. If I do 3 week days and add the entire weekend, I'm up to 123 points, which is 43 more points than the 5 night trip cost me in 2009. I just don't see WHY I would want to add the weekends, it's still more points. So no, we won't be planning to add on weekends.

But YES, I guess this might change the way I plan my vacations. Because if I'm short on points, we will do 4 nights instead of 5, which at 19 points a night will be 76 points, just 4 less than my 5 night trip cost me in 2009. And no, I won't consider adding on points. I've spent enough already, and if Disney changes point charts every few years, there is no end in sight.

So, everyone says Disney doesn't care that I lessen my trip by one night and won't get my ticket and dining money that day, because someone else will fill my room that night. I don't get that either. The members that HAVE to travel on weekends, for 2009, using my same scenario - BWV, standard 1BR in January, for a Fri, Sat & Sun night stay would use 98 points.

Jump to 2010, that 3 night stay DOES drop to 85 points (from 98), but they would need to stay 4 nights to make up for the night I dropped, so their 4 night trip would be 104 points. Now, yes, they might be thrilled to stay 4 nights instead of their usual 3, for just an additional 6 points, but it's the same night of rooms for Disney.

In 2009 I stay 5 nights, and the weekend family stays 3, total is 8.
In 2010 I can only afford 4 nights, and the weekend family can stay 4, total is 8. DVC isn't filling any MORE rooms than before. What am I missing???

Am I happy about this change? No, not one bit. Will I adjust and get over it? Maybe. Will I add on more points? Not in a million years. For the first time in my life I said the words outloud to my DH, "It might be time to consider selling some of our contracts." Will I really do it? Who knows. But I have NEVER even felt like saying those words, and now I really do.

Like others have said, everyone besides DVC gets deals, buy 4 nights, get 3 free, free dining in Sept, etc. We get nothing. It has been asked before, but I haven't seen it answered - where do we send a complaint letter? Should it go to Jim Lewis, and does anyone have his direct address? Or should it just be sent to MS?

Thanks for letting me vent!!

 

[tjkraz]

Yes Tim...but their timing was not right at all.....

You're not getting any arguments about that from me. I've said a number of times that I agree this was poorly-implemented.

But I think there are a lot of people here still questioning the appropriateness and motivation behind the reallocation. Some are claiming that they feel deceived and that DVC's sole motivation is to sell more points. I see it as something DVC was forced (obligated) to do and even they may be dreading the outcome.

Why did they wait so long to announce it? I have absolutely no idea.

 

[Val]

I am sure that Disney, with its massive legal department, is well within legal activities with this rearrangment of points. However, this decision in light of many other recent and quite unpopular decisions may come back to bite them. DVC has initiated a number of large building projects, and are banking on the increasing sales of DVC. The impact of the down economy is unknown, but the rate of sales is likely to decline- many in the luxury industry are seeing significant downturns, and DVC will similarly be impacted. One of the first rules of good business (oft forgetten in today's business world) is to NOT bite the hand that feeds you. Look at the major corporations that have gone under recently- many due to too fast expansion, declines in customer service, and a significant recession. I only hope that the department of future forecasting and sorcery is as good as their legal department.....I really believe that these recent business decisions are NOT a good idea for the company given the current economic climate. Unfortunately, pixie dust and thinking magical thoughts will not help sales- but bad PR and poor word of mouth from current customers, along with surge of resales (which take away from NEW sales for DVC) will hurt.

Look at the list of failed companies....many are huge surprises. I truly hope that Disney is looking at the huge, long term picture........two years ago Disney was trading around 34, today it is around 20; now around 2002-2003 it hit its low, around 15, and it came back. But, heading into a recession on the decline isn't the direction I would want disney to be going. Glad I only own DVC and not their stock!

We shall see.....we have owned for 11 years. We have seen changes, most negative, but this change in light of the several other changes (wait list, paper plates) seem to be making the proverbial camel showing some sagging. Wonder what will be the next change (internal or external to DVC) that breaks that camel's back!

 

[CheapMom]

will this change the way you plan your vacation days? In other words, if you used to only stay Sun-Thurs because of the really high points, are you considering weekend stays now?

Yes- I will be including more weekends into my trips. Even though I will be spending more points on some trips, I am happy for the new options of less costly weekend trips and Grand Villa stays.

 

[DisFlan]

will this change the way you plan your vacation days? In other words, if you used to only stay Sun-Thurs because of the really high points, are you considering weekend stays now?

I can only see where this might affect those DVC'ers who only stay Sun-Thurs - the others already book the weekends, so I can't imagine how this affects those.

This is what I wondered about a few post back. Until weekends and weeknights are closer to the same number of points, usage patterns aren't going to change much - other than a number of Sun-Thurs folks will possibly shorten a stay or skip a year. Weekends are still high. I can't see where this change is going to twist anyone's arm (or all that many arms) into staying a Friday or Saturday if they didn't already normally do so.

As mentioned previously, it's going to take a number of reassessments to make weekend nights more palatable to most of the folks who don't currently book them. (Maybe a "Five Year Plan"?) But this possibility is another kettle of fish - one that they probably won't warn us about, either.


DisFlan

 

[jekjones1558]

In 2009 I stay 5 nights, and the weekend family stays 3, total is 8.
In 2010 I can only afford 4 nights, and the weekend family can stay 4, total is 8. DVC isn't filling any MORE rooms than before. What am I missing???

If some folks who used to go for 5 weekdays now only go for 4 weekdays then there should be more weekdays available to combine with weekend stays. So families who would not book DVC in 2009 if only 2 expensive weekend days were available might book in 2010 if those 2 weekend days are now cheaper AND there is a day or 2 of weekdays available to add to their stay.
Somehow I think that weekdays will still be pretty much booked. It will be interesting to see whether the new weekend rates have changed enough to fill rooms on weekends. If not then I would expect another change in points charts down the road (hopefully with more notice to members!)

 

[Disneyjamie]

Oh....how I have often wished my job and hours would have allowed this over the years.....




Montgomery County here ! So we're practically neighbors. But I've seen drastic differences from one school district to the next. My kids used to be in Catholic school and they seemed more understanding about absences. And no apologies needed.....there are just so many variables besides just missing school, that I don't want to clog up this thread with. But let it suffice that aside from the fact, vacationing in slow season is not only not a choice, it's not even a remote option for us. I have one in college and for every 3 classes they miss, they drop 1 letter grade as per almost every professor. When you're on a partial scholarship, this is not an option. I just couldn't get into all the details when I first posted.......but trust me on this......and no hard feelings dd08.....

I read your posts as negative due to your bolding of the text. Just a friendly suggestion you may want to not bold your text (same as ALL CAPS is taken as yelling).

 

[ReneeQ]

As mentioned previously, it's going to take a number of reassessments to make weekend nights more palatable to the folks who don't currently book them. (Maybe a "Five Year Plan"?) But this possibility is another kettle of fish - one that they probably won't warn us about, either.
DisFlan

But wasn't that the PROBLEM back in the beginning? Weekends and weekdays were close to the same number of points, so locals were able to book up all the weekends, shutting out the possibility of booking an entire week to those that had to travel from far away? Won't it be right back where it all started if they do that?

 

[ashbradnmom]

You're not getting any arguments about that from me. I've said a number of times that I agree this was poorly-implemented.

But I think there are a lot of people here still questioning the appropriateness and motivation behind the reallocation. Some are claiming that they feel deceived and that DVC's sole motivation is to sell more points. I see it as something DVC was forced (obligated) to do and even they may be dreading the outcome.

Why did they wait so long to announce it? I have absolutely no idea.

I know you are saying the same thing i am. If a resort is sold out there is now way there only purpose is to sell points, the points are not available.
If they wanted to do that then why not ROFR every resale on the market and then they have points available but still not enough for everyone.

Val I am just down 74 from you a little south of Champaign. You are the closest from where live that i have seen on here.

 

[Sammie]

will this change the way you plan your vacation days? In other words, if you used to only stay Sun-Thurs because of the really high points, are you considering weekend stays now?

I can only see where this might affect those DVC'ers who only stay Sun-Thurs - the others already book the weekends, so I can't imagine how this affects those.

See this is the real question to ponder. Supposedly the change was made due to complaints about availablity especially after the 6 month booking window. That only weekends were available.

So they adjusted. But, if this adjustment truly does not move some of the Sunday-Thursday crowd into the weekends they have accommplished nothing except to make the weekend crowd happy and anger the Sun-Thurs crowd.

They have not changed the booking trend and personally I don't think it will change that much. I think the members that booked Sunday-Thursday will continue to do so.

And according to the MS agent I talked to today, the phones are ringing off the wall and people are very upset.

 

[ReneeQ]

If some folks who used to go for 5 weekdays now only go for 4 weekdays then there should be more weekdays available to combine with weekend stays. So families who would not book DVC in 2009 if only 2 expensive weekend days were available might book in 2010 if those 2 weekend days are now cheaper AND there is a day or 2 of weekdays available to add to their stay.

Okay, I hadn't thought about people not booking a weekend stay AT ALL, if a few weekdays weren't available to book with them, that does make sense. BUT at some point that member HAD to use their points, even if all they could get was the weekends, or, of course, lose their points.

Maybe I've been lucky, and I admit we rarely go at peak times, but by calling at exactly 11 months, I have NEVER not been able to book what I wanted. We have been members 10 years. I just wonder when all these people that can't book what they want are calling MS. We have stayed in studios, BWV standard view studios, 1BR and 2BRs, at all times of the year, and many times for full weeks and long weekends, in addition to our Sun-Fri stays.

 

[Chuck S]

I have a theory. Years ago, the DVC bean counters may have figured they could sell more points annually by dropping the minimum buy-in to 150 points, selling a greater volume of new contracts than with a 210+ point minimum, as they likely saw a slight increase with the previous drops (230 to 210 to 170).

They also probably figured a fairly high percentage of new owners would "get their feet wet" with a 150 point contract, but then do add-on contracts to increase their ownership.

But the add-ons didn't materialize, and a substantial number of 150 point owners, rather than do add-ons went to a Sun to Thur only travel window, throwing resort usage out of balance, and increasing demand for Sun to Thur visits.

Now, it may not have been a big problem for a few years. DVC could have used the weekends for CRO reservations to offset the non-DVC trade costs. But, as the economy worsened over the last couple years, weekend cash demand may have fallen, cutting the ability of DVC to recoup those trade costs. At the same time, DVC owners that rented points were often seeing savvy renters who only wanted weekdays on points, substantially undercutting CRO cash reservations, and at the same time people with higher point counts than 150 who were renting points were causing increasing weekday DVC demand, throwing the system further out of balance.

Surely there was a combination of factors that would lead to a re-allocation.

 

[bookwormde]

Well here is my email to member satisfaction

Member Satisfaction Team

I would like to address a few issues involving the new point allocations.

First is the timing and method of the announcement. Waiting until 2 days before members have to start there vacation reservations impacted by this change was at best inconsiderate. Many members plan their points will ahead and borrow, bank, rent and transfer to be prepared for their plans.

The nature of the announcements of many changes in the last years, have been at best “half truths” and while at first beginning a source of some amusement, as they have involved more series issues have devolved into statements which are disingenuous at best and are perceived by some members as flat out lies.

There also is a significant perception that the changes are not base on the best interests of the majority of members as required by Florida statute, but instead come from the financial interest of DVC particularly as they relate to the sales of DVC. It is my perception that this evolves from DVC’s unwillingness to be open, honest and provide measurable information as to the challenges that DVC faces which brought about these changes and the process and information about how the decision was made and what other alternatives which turned out to be less desirable.

In this area, and with the breakdown of trust towards DVC making decisions in the best interests of the member I believe it is important to provide the calendar basis that was used for the original count of points at the time of declaration of the resorts and a demonstration that the new allocation have precisely the same number of points (both member owned and DVC retained. In so much as a member I am making a formal request for this information.

There are also serious indications that in a significant number of cases Guides were indicating at the time of “advertisement” that the point charts would not change, while the oral presentation waiver in the contracts deals with this from a contractual viewpoint, from a regulatory situation under FL 721.11 this an issue, and just further erodes confidence in the management of DVC.

Additionally since it is clear that this have been “in the work” for some time, is material change in the timeshare offering which was being seriously considered, not disclosing it to individuals who have purchased during this time is likely a violation of the requirement to disclose any current or anticipated future event which may have a material impact (similar to the situations which have happened with non disclosure of special dues in other timeshare companies) during real estate transactions. Again these oversights diminish DVC and confidence in the management in the eyes of both the members impacted by them and the members who are aware of the situation.

DVC is quickly diminishing the good will which generates DVC’s “free” sales force of current members who have been actively promoting DVC to friends, associates and acquaintances and in some cases are turning them into a individuals who have a negative impact on anyone who queries them about DVC.

Also there is no indication that DVC management considered any methodologies to lessen the impact of this change, whether from allowing micro add ons where members current point amount were based on specific portions of the charts, or DVC starting to sell points (just for the current year) to make up shortfall created by this change, or allowing additional small transfers between members for the same purpose.

This just adds to the “one sided” perception that is growing

These and other recent issues and uncertainty continues to have the potential to significantly damage the DVC “brand” which creates a significant portion of the value of a timeshare.

As an aside, I had called about a transfer and none of the MS front line people or supervisor could find a written policy as to when points became available to be transferred or as to the policy that they cannot be borrowed. They were very helpful in referring me to what I believe was “contract administration” who again could not find the written policy. They were supposed to send me a current POS and home resort regulation documents and send them to me and have the next level up research the policy and once found forward it to me. It has been close to 2 months with no response.

Thank you for your consideration,

I have attached my spreadsheet, which I used to try to verify that the total points had not changed for OKW, but as I said I could not verify this. There are also other members, which are attempting this, unsuccessfully.
As I have with past issues, I am attaching one of the discussion threads on disBoards since it is a good way to measure members concerns. There are also some polls available as to member’s reactions and future plans based on this change, which might be enlightening.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2066946


bookwormde
xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.com
xxx-xxx-xxxx
Member #xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Val]

and on another note....ashbradnmom....how could is it and how much more snow did YOU get last night. It is 8 above here and we got 4".....I am dreaming of a preferred view BWV!