Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[bethy]

Because i'm somewhat on the fence with this issue I think i'll kind of play the "devil's advocate" here. I have to admit, though, that there is something that I keep seeing repeated over and over again that I can't quite get my mind around.
Could some of you folks please give your definition of "flexibility", with respect to your DVC ownership specifically? In other words, when you purchased, what exactly were you drawn to when you saw or heard about the flexibility of the system?

Not having to book a minimum of 7 days at the same place. for the same size villa for the exact same week every single year.

 

[Chuck S]

Because i'm somewhat on the fence with this issue I think i'll kind of play the "devil's advocate" here. I have to admit, though, that there is something that I keep seeing repeated over and over again that I can't quite get my mind around.
Could some of you folks please give your definition of "flexibility", with respect to your DVC ownership specifically? In other words, when you purchased, what exactly were you drawn to when you saw or heard about the flexibility of the system?

Well, since I purchased in 1992, there was only ONE DVC resort, so trading to other DVC locations wasn't part of my definition of "flexibility" at buy-in. To me, the biggest positive was not being locked into a specific time frame or room size at DVC (now known as OKW) every year, or the same length of stay every trip and the ability to bank/borrow if one year I needed more points, others years, less. Trading through RCI added a little to flexibility, although I've not traded out, even to another DVC resort, in all these years, but it is nice to know it is an option.

And really, nothing about those positives of the membership has changed.

 

[bababear_50]

Just cancelled my plans for an add-on...too many changes in such a short period of time with NO notice at all. Well guess I'll just look for another place to vacation in between my once a year Disney World trip.

 

[WDWFAM4]

I suggest sending you emails of disatifaction to:members@disneyvacationclub.com

 

[mnra]

Chuck S I agree with most of your points but early on had much more chance for last minute trip I don;t see that being able to be done all that much. Maybe I just need to plan way in advance but last minute trips are fun

 

[mnra]

wdwfam4

sorry about the rant and rave not sure they would care but had to get it out hope your weekend is good

 

[mickeymom629]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bevis
Because i'm somewhat on the fence with this issue I think i'll kind of play the "devil's advocate" here. I have to admit, though, that there is something that I keep seeing repeated over and over again that I can't quite get my mind around.
Could some of you folks please give your definition of "flexibility", with respect to your DVC ownership specifically? In other words, when you purchased, what exactly were you drawn to when you saw or heard about the flexibility of the system?


Not having to book a minimum of 7 days at the same place. for the same size villa for the exact same week every single year.
Today 04:39 PM

That's what we love,too! I only have 200 points, and I like to use them for at least a 5 night stay a year on average. (We have to get a 2 bedroom villa)At least I knew that we could go yearly Sun-Thurs. for 5 nights somewhere. I am hoping to book for next December for my last time with the "old" point system which will use up most of my points, with borrowing.

I am sad to say that if we need to bank and borrow for every other year vacations with the new point allocation or stay just 4 nights yearly, the dues I pay yearly will be a little more difficult to swallow. We could definitely use our money more wisely and probably visit more often, just maybe not stay on property.

I'm glad we bought DVC, and I have not regretted our years as members - definitely the opposite! I just hope I feel like keeping my membership can be justified.

And the fact that we are a family of 6, DVC made staying on property so "affordable" with great accomodations.

 

[WolfpackFan]

I hesitate to jump back into this fray, but I'm beginning to wonder if some folks aren't really overreacting to this change in a big way. At first, I was very bothered and made several posts expressing that dissatisfaction. But since then, I've changed my plans for this year and next year and the change really hasn't effected me as much as I thought. In fact, for my AKV trip it lowered my points somewhat since I did plan on staying on Friday and Saturday nights. What I've come to realize is we'll just have to change our trip plans. We may not go as often, but when we do go we'll just stay longer. That's not a bad thing seeing as we will save on transportation costs, food, etc. The change really only effected our HHI plans in a significant manner and that's because we only have an 80 pt. contract. What I'll end up doing is just using our HHI pts. for fewer nights and then augment them with our other points at 7 months. If I can't get a ressie, then we'll just stay as long as we can with the points we have. I see now that these changes were made for a good reason - to make the system more equitable for everyone and I really can't argue with that and who knows maybe it will make it easier to get reservations in general, because people might be taking fewer trips like we are.

 

[bwvBound]

Could some of you folks please give your definition of "flexibility", with respect to your DVC ownership specifically? In other words, when you purchased, what exactly were you drawn to when you saw or heard about the flexibility of the system?

Highlights for me: the ability to choose any arrival day of the week, any length of stay, any size unit, any season ... at any of the DVC resorts with the option to bank/borrow points across use years.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

Highlights for me: the ability to choose any arrival day of the week, any length of stay, any size unit, any season ... at any of the DVC resorts with the option to bank/borrow points across use years.

Haven't been following this thread for very many pages, but when I saw Hope posting I had to take a look.... Well said. I think probably length of stay is the greatest feature. Many timeshares work only in weeks.

 

[Capn Dave]

I agree that DVC should have been more forthcoming about the point changes. I have also read on this thread that a number of people are happy with the reallocation. Unfortunately it affected me negatively for the times of the year we like to vacation.
I would like to see DVC publish a breakdown by resort of which weeks went up and which went down. I then could determine easily if I could take advantage of the point decreases. I know I can look at the 2010 point chart and compare it to the 2009 but a simple spreadsheet highlighting the changes would make it easier to read.
I would also like to see the point allocation per resort to ascertain that the total point value did not change.

 

[jekjones1558]

I know I can look at the 2010 point chart and compare it to the 2009 but a simple spreadsheet highlighting the changes would make it easier to read.

Capn dave,
Have you seen this?:
http://gallery.me.com/drowells#100081
Not a spreadsheet but I like the sideXside.

 

[Dean]

First, I added all of the annual points for a year for studio, 1 BR, and 2 BR at BCV for 2009 and then for 2010. The difference is 3 more total points for 2010 as compared to 2009. Although this is only 3 points, it is more and not what Disney said.

Second, according to the Public Offering Statement for BCV, the maximum number of points for at least one use day for 2 BR is 46. In other words, Disney must allow for at least one day per year at no more than 46 points. It also goes on the say that at some point in the future, all seasons and days may have the same point requirement. If all days had the a point requirement of 46 for all seasons throughout the year, the total points would be slightly less than that for 2010 total. In other words, the worst case reallocation scenario that Disney could have in strategic plan is to balance out at around 46 points per night for all nights in a year.

First, you have to ignore lockoff smaller units. Then you have to figure out the points for each day for each unit type and for the number of units in that cat. for each day of the year. It will not be zero, nor will it be the same each year.

Can you imagine if you were one of the poor saps at HGVC that paid $12,000 to $15,000 for a week you could get for less than your maintenance fees? I stayed at the Sea World HGVC in a 1 Bdrm last year in March for a conference that was down the road and I paid less than $100/night.

Overall HGVC is a good system with as tight or tighter control over ROFR than DVC from what I've heard. Still, I stayed 7 nights at the I-Drive location for about $300 in a 2 BR.

Can DVC change so that a week's stay is mandatory? We did a HGVC presentation, and I know they mentioned "points" because there a Friday, Saturday and Sunday night cost more than the other nights. We bought DVC not because we wanted a timeshare but because we wanted to stay on site at WDW ( and VB too!) and DVC has enabled us to do that with so many of our DFamily/Friends for a very reasonable amount of money compared to what each vacation would cost us through CRO.

Bobbi

Likely not without a vote. But they could give priority to a full weeks stay and there are other ways they could encourage stays that are more favorable to a full week or at least the weekend.

 

[Dean]

Well, there are definitely differences in "historical demands" for different seasons, so I don't see why they couldn't have just adjusted the points for certain weeks and not others. That's why they have different points during different seasons to begin with.

They could have but it seems that with limited exceptions, they felt the weekend vs weekday issue was the big problem. I'm sure they were up against the 20% max change as well. Thus we may or may not see another change in 2-4 years.

SSR has dedicated 2bedrooms with 2 queens as well. That's why I calculated the dedicated 2bedrooms differently from lockoffs. But Dean insists they should be considered the same.

I'm reading my contracts too and it still doesn't add up. If you count all 2bedroom configurations the same then the total point count for the resort goes down significantly (by several thousand). If you count lockoffs and dedicateds separately then the total point count goes up significantly. The balance just isn't there which is why so many people are reporting a loss. You'd think if it was balanced then while you'd take a shorter trip one season (or go to a smaller unit), you could increase the length or unit size of a trip a different season. But that's just not happening.

I'd love to see the numbers DVC used for calculating total points in a resort and how those reallocated charts come to a 0 difference. Any increase, no matter how minimal, is a direct violation of the contract. Any decrease seems like it would be shortchanging the program at large.

The points for an entire year for every unit for a base year of 1992 (likely the one used for OKW and all else) is 14074776 points, with the change, the points would be 14075811 for that same year. True it's not zero but I don't think it has to be to meet the intent of this requirement. As for the lockoff issue, go to the demand balancing portion of the POS for SSR and see it doesn't list only 2 & 3 BR units plus the THV possibly if you have a new one. From a practical approach they couldn't do it all as lockoffs separately as they would have oversold those resorts. The only other ways to do so would be all not locked off or a fixed percentage and there's no indication in the legalities of that approach but there is for none locked off in the rebalancing referenced above.

Here's the FL statutes pertaining to this subject.

Prior to offering the multisite timeshare plan, the developer shall create the reservation system and shall establish rules and regulations for its operation. In establishing these rules and regulations, the developer shall take into account the location and anticipated relative use demand of each component site that he or she intends to offer as a part of the plan and shall use his or her best efforts, in good faith and based upon all reasonably available evidence under the circumstances, to further the best interests of the purchasers of the plan as a whole with respect to their opportunity to use and enjoy the accommodations and facilities of the plan. The rules and regulations shall also provide for periodic adjustment or amendment of the reservation system by the managing entity from time to time in order to respond to actual purchaser use patterns and changes in purchaser use demand for the accommodations and facilities existing at that time within the plan. The person authorized to make additions and substitutions during the term of the multisite timeshare plan shall also comply with the requirements of this subsection in ascertaining the desirability of the proposed addition, substitution, adjustment, or amendment and the impact of same upon the demand for and availability of existing plan accommodations and facilities.

 

[Dean]

I keep seeing folks mention DVC's legal responsibility is to balance demand.
But, then there are folks who have said it has been unbalanced for years and DVC didn't want "to take the heat". BCV came on line in 2002, SSR in 2004, AKV in 2008 and BLT in 2009.... All sold with points seemingly "out of balance". And, what about AKV and BLT-points changing before occupancy has been established?

I do not believe the points have been out of balance all this time and DVC has been shirking their legal responsibility. (BTW, for whatever reason, nearly everytime I try to make a reservation for the weekend at less than 7 months, I end up on the W-L). I do not believe these recent point adjustments are for "seasonal" demand based on occupancy, either, as called out in the contract. (Or, they wouldn't be adjusting AKV and BLT)

What I've said is it was a problem and was slowly getting worse. The fact they delayed doesn't change the appropriateness of the change regardless, only the judgement of the people making the decisions.

See TJ, this truly is my greatest complaint about the current management at DVC. I can appreciate that change has to happen and I can accept that not all changes will appeal to me, I am fine with that.

What I and many others have a very hard time accepting is that with the current management, when they make a change it is blamed on "member feedback".

I think that is alot of PR, BS and I ain't buying into it. I think they do what they feel is best for them, and blame it on us wanting it. And maybe sometimes, they do make a decision based on what is best for DVC in general.

I just want them to state the truth, I can handle that. I always feel when they change something and use the canned response (member feedback) when questioned why, they feel we are not capable of understanding the real reason for change.

It's not like they have to justify this change other than to say it's related to member demand. My guess is they didn't press in that area simply because they're not willing to share the numbers. However, Member Feedback is a very broad term. Usage patterns are a lot more accurate member feedback than are compiled complaints or surveys and the term is very accurate used in that context IMO.

I hesitate to jump back into this fray, but I'm beginning to wonder if some folks aren't really overreacting to this change in a big way.

You think? IMO the personal affect should have no impact on one's thoughts as to the reasonableness of the change. That's different than being disappointed if the reasonable change costs one more points, which I totally understand as it will also cost me more.

Everyone will have a different definition of flexible, you could end up with a 50 count list easily.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

Haven't been following this thread for very many pages, but when I saw Hope posting I had to take a look.... Well said. I think probably length of stay is the greatest feature. Many timeshares work only in weeks.

Hi Rob!

 

[gracelrm]

Well, I read 72 pages and decided I could never make it to the end. Good thing I've been off work the past 4 days due to ice & snow or I'd never gotten that much read! I'm glad there are so many people on these boards to explain the things that will likely never be explained by DVC. Sunday when I first got wind of all of this, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why dvc would do this - but so many of you have made me understand why it's happening. I don't necessarily like it, but it makes sense. We usually stay at wdw for an entire week during the summer, so the changes for us are minimal. However, most years during our fall break we go to HH, VB or sometimes to WDW. We can't really stay an entire week during fall break because of ballgames/marching band/etc so our points needed will increase. Fortunately, we didn't purchase points based upon going the same time each year - we bought a round number that we could afford. I think that's what makes the changes a little easier for us to take - we weren't set on a certain week. Several times throughout the 8 years we've owned, I've wished for a few more points than what we currently have. DH has always just said, we'd just always borrow and then in 2042 - we wouldn't have any points and that would be okay cause I'd be 79 and he'd be 81. I guess that's how we'll survive this increase in points.

I do hate that so many people have had their plans messed up. Maybe enough emails and letters will make DVC keep this in mind in the future and make any changes known with at least an 18 month or more notice.

 

[mickeymom629]

I'm all set now, as long as I reserve every room for the entire year, everything will be exactly the same. Anyone want to transfer me some points, I'm a little short.

Thanks for the first good chuckle I've had since this thread began!

 

[codina818]

I have been looking at the new points charts and it seems that there are no cheap 5 day stays anymore...

What happened is that the 8 point studios have disappeared... it used to be 5 nights X 8 = 40 points.... no longer.

now the cheapest (excluding AKV value) is 45 points.

Same with most other 5 night studio stays... they go up at least 5 points for Sun-Fri. 5 night stay.

Looks to me like DVC has raised the minimum number of points for any stay..

in fact, 4 night X 12 points stays were less than 50 points.... poof.. gone now for most resorts, now it is 4 x 13 = 52... so those 50 point contracts are not good for a yearly stay... and a 25 point contract won't give you a 4 night stay every two years.

Looks like a price hike to me.

 

[disneykidatheart]

If I have learned anything from reading this thread, it is that emotions are running very high on the recent unveiling of the 2010 points charts. The timing can certainly be seen as suspect and we will likely never know if it was by accident or design. I absolutely empathize with those of you that made recent purchases and find yourselves short of points and hopefully DVC will offer an olive branch with a workable solution for you.

I think it would be difficult to state emphatically what was said or not said at the DVC tour. And that would be especially true after time has passed. Our heads were spinning with details after my husband and I took our tour. Yes, we carried home our packet of papers for perusal fully convinced we would be signing on the Palm tree lines. We read through the entire packet. As soon as we arrived home there came an impending threat of retirement for my husband, who at 53 was not yet ready to be put out to pasture. We decided we would not sign the papers and wait until we were ready to make a commitment that may be based on retirement.

I soon found the DIS boards and learned tons and tons and tons of information. I could not say for sure now what I learned at the tour and what I learned on the boards. I always knew that points could be reallocated but always thought it would only pertain to seasonal changes. I only heard much later that OKW had a reallocation in the 90's.

Although the threat of retirement passed, our fervor for DVC did not subside and I found the resale market. I haunted it for a few months until I found a 76 point contract that would allow us to get our feet wet. Since 76 points is not a lot we found the beauty of being able to use the S-TH booking. We supplemented our stay with weekend trips to Naples to visit relatives and were extremely happy with our onsite Disney stays. It was only a short matter of time before that was not enough for us. My husband soon tired of moving around and supported another purchase after the visit in which we moved four times. We continued to buy more small contracts through resale until we now have an amount that allows a couple trips per year. (By the way, even though we paid closing costs for four of those five contracts, we still came out ahead of buying through Disney. Time was never a factor for us and the purchases always worked out well, even though one was with a seller from the UK--but that is another thread). Our trips gradually added a weekend night and once, a full week stay. I am pretty well sold now on staying put for as long as possible. We don't travel at peak times. I don't call at the eleven month mark, and not even usually at the 7 month mark. I have never had a problem getting the dates I needed.

So, our situation changed in a few short years. While my husband still worked, the S-TH system worked. We were able to get a vacation in and he could do it with minimal time off from work. My husband retired in October and now we are able to travel without the pressure of being home on a timetable. Now the weekly stays will work out more to our advantage.

I have been a bit wistful when I hear that in the past there were other perks such as park passes. Now I guess I am happy that I don't really know what I missed. The Disney DVC I know is the Disney DVC it was when I purchased nearly five years ago. I can't worry about what came before. I still love coming and staying onsite. The magic is still here for me. I still feel very fortunate I can travel at all. There will always be changes. I may not agree with them nor like them. But I have to believe that in the end the changes are made for the betterment of DVC as a whole. When the magic is gone I will consider selling my contracts and moving on.

I would love to have the points charts stay the same as before but, being a pragmatic person, I can understand the need for a realignment of points. I have to think--What is better-being hit with a plank between the eyes once or having toothpicks shot into my eyes every couple of years? I vote for the plank. I will get over it and move on. Having said that, I hope the charts won't continue to be changed.

Think of it this way. DVC published the 2010 charts as a rollout for their new theme for 2009 which will be known as "The year of a million screams".