Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[Mick West]

As DVCers retire and children leave home, it is likely that even more of them will move to weekday stays. In that case weekday points will go up even more.

And working parents trying to squeeze in vacations on long weekends with their kids will benefit.

It's a long way between now and 2042. As society and the demographic of owners changes the point structure will change with it. That is DVCs obligation to members. Not just vocal members, but all members including what I am sure is a fairly silent majority.

I appreciate tjkraz looking at this from the perspective of the whole and not just "special interests."

I believe it is utilitarianism that states the highest good is what results in the greatest happiness for the greatest number.

Again, please enlighten me on who are "sponsors" - are they elected, paid by Disney, or just folks who sign up for this? I'm really just curious about this as I've never seen so many post's, all defending this points change strongly by the way, in any other threads I go to.

 

[Chuck S]

I am totally speaking from "Facts" - in 2010 the same trips that I'm taking in 2009 will cost me 40+ more points. That's not "emotions". In this thread I see lots of communications from "sponsors". Please enlighten me on who/what are sponsors and what is their role?

Sponsors on the DIS are simply like Sponsors on Public Broadcasting. They have donated some $ to help offset the cost of operating the site. They have no direct operational connection to the DIS site or to Disney/DVC.

There are also Forum sponsors, like the Timeshare Store that pay an advertising fee for forums that may relate to their type of business.

Moderators are volunteers that help to make the DIS a welcoming place for all. We basically steer people towards staying on topic, and make sure there is no foul language or personal attacks.

 

[Dean]

Here's the problem with that statement... that "majority" bought into DVC knowing the point structure for the weekends, and I say "majority" because do we have any actual numbers to verify it is a majority?

We all bought in knowing the point structure and many of us bought the number of points we needed to support our travel plans. This change completely throws that off. Disadvantaging the "minority" for the sake of the "majority"....

We all bought knowing (or should have known) that there had been a previous reallocation in 1996 and that it was a possibility to happen again. Timeshares change over time, often not for the better, another absolute that anyone buying a timeshare should have known up front. The truth is this is a minority of members but IF it were a majority doesn't make it any less appropriate. The truth is the larger the spread from weekend to weekdays, the more the need for the change. But it's more than simply absolute numbers, you've got to look at when the rooms are book, cash vs points and the LOS. LOL applies to costs for housekeeping.

I am totally speaking from "Facts" - in 2010 the same trips that I'm taking in 2009 will cost me 40+ more points. That's not "emotions". In this thread I see lots of communications from "sponsors". Please enlighten me on who/what are sponsors and what is their role?

Sponsors are simply members who gave money to keep DIS afloat and make sure it stayed around as a free site. It was essentially a voluntary payment. A flag was added to their online listing that identified what level they donated at (my paraphrase of what happened). While it may be fact that your situation is affected, it is emotion as to the reasonableness of the change.

 

[Dean]

Well Tim....lately, respectfully we tend to see things differently.

IF....even it was a consideration on disney's part and no more, just the fact that they "pondered" charging OKW non-extenders higher fees to help cover the extension was wrong imo. Sure this was "poor planning" as you put it. Poor planning that would have impacted non-extenders in a negative way. Why would I want to pay more in fees for a service I would not be reaping ?

So my opinions differ from yours, but don't think you can convince me otherwise. And I do find it underhanded, that they baited OKW members with this extension without devulging the upcoming reallocation of points. I'm just glad we didn't snap up the bait they were sending us. I got several mailings claiming what a great deal it was. Hmmmm.....perhaps they did this because they could already foresee OKW'ers like myself, not real thrilled with a 6 point PER NIGHT increase. Maybe they could foresee an influx of resales on the market due to this. I don't know.....but then why weren't they more upfront with letting Members know about the reallocation ? I can come to no other plausible explanation for it. I am quite certain DVD worked on that idea for quite some time.

I know you say you "highly doubt" there were any lawsuits or threats of any.....but again, none of us here really truly knows that. And from the way this whole announcement of the reallocation has gone (announced so soon after the add-on incentives for AKV and BLT ended).....well, I just hope to keep my wits about me a bit more where DVD is concerned. Now I see how they prefer to operate.
So I know you like to defend them frequently, but I'm not on that team right now Tim. Not now.

Maria

Maria, I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they had planned (or not) to charge those that didn't extend the same dues the last few years. I doubt they had formalized this issue given it's 3 decades away and it's possible they hadn't even addressed it until that point. The complaint simply forced them to address it and finalize the distinction, we'll see complaints in 28-30 years about the breakdown of the dues. If DVC no longer works for you certainly you should get out. OTOH, I see many people who seem to me as fair weather fans. They held DVC too high before and are being overly harsh now. DVC is a timeshare, always had been, it will change again in a few years, possibly sooner. It may be my view is jaded because I never saw them as the end all, though it is my first timeshare love. I've been chastised in the past for lumping DVC guides in the group of timeshare sales people and then comparing that group to used car sales people to give you an idea of my position, I'm guessing I won't get nearly as much criticism right now for using that analogy.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Dean : Maria, I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they had planned (or not) to charge those that didn't extend the same dues the last few years. I doubt they had formalized this issue given it's 3 decades away and it's possible they hadn't even addressed it until that point. The complaint simply forced them to address it and finalize the distinction, we'll see complaints in 28-30 years about the breakdown of the dues. If DVC no longer works for you certainly you should get out. OTOH, I see many people who seem to me as fair weather fans. They held DVC too high before and are being overly harsh now.

Dean...that's fine there is no evidense. It wasn't even my initial point. I wasn't even the OP of that statement ? I was simply acknowledging another poster's statement on the fact about the intentioned higher dues for OKW non-extenders. Before a few hours ago, I didn't even know a thing about it. I don't get why I am being called out like this.

And I am NOT a fair weather fan Dean. If you are insinuating that towards me---perhaps you are speaking generally. I'm going to hope you were referring to other DVC'ers here on the DIS. Because I clearly state in an above post that if I had had disclosure of the re-allocation in a timely manner, I would have felt more informed about how I wanted to handle my Membership. I would have been more informed about my add-on. I clearly state we most likely would have purchased at least double the amount of AKV points that we did and put OKW up for sale. Sorry if you or anyone misunderstood.

So if you consider me a "fair weather" fan....you are entitled to your opinion. I feel like I never should have come back to this thread....that's for sure. I simply came back to say we had thought about the reallocation in relation to OKW specifically and our membership specifically. I wasn't speaking for anyone else but myself in that regard. I feel OKW was hit hard in Magic season and we just don't feel she is worth the extra 6 points per night or the extra 30 points every year. I never said DVC wasn't for me

Does anyone "get" what I was trying to say here..........? Was I totally lacking in FACTS ?

Maria ---> feeling more and more like the misunderstood DIS'er

 

[Dean]

And I am NOT a fair weather fan Dean. If you are insinuating that towards me---perhaps you are speaking generally. I'm going to hope you were referring to other DVC'ers here on the DIS. Because I clearly state in an above post that if I had had disclosure of the re-allocation in a timely manner, I would have felt more informed about how I wanted to handle my Membership. I would have been more informed about my add-on. I clearly state we most likely would have purchased at least double the amount of AKV points that we did and put OKW up for sale. Sorry if you or anyone misunderstood.

So if you consider me a "fair weather" fan....you are entitled to your opinion. I feel like I never should have come back to this thread....that's for sure. I simply came back to say we had thought about the reallocation in relation to OKW specifically and our membership specifically. I wasn't speaking for anyone else but myself in that regard. I feel OKW was hit hard in Magic season and we just don't feel she is worth the extra 6 points per night or the extra 30 points every year. I never said DVC wasn't for me

Does anyone "get" what I was trying to say here..........? Was I totally lacking in FACTS ?

Maria ---> feeling more and more like the misunderstood DIS'er

I am speaking generally, my impression was you made a decision that DVC no longer worked for you and are going with it, that's what those should to that DVC no longer works for them. I will say that you had disclosure in that it was in the POS and you investigated DVC including on this site if I recall correctly. I suspect you also knew about the previous reallocation.

 

[MiaSRN62]

I had heard about the previous allocation Dean....
I'm sorry you misunderstood, in that you thought that DVC was no longer for me and it was probably best to get out. This is/was not my line of thinking nor what I stated in my post, but I know how things can get misconstrued on message boards. Especially threads that have gone on this long.

DVC is still for me......just in a different way........rather, it is OKW that is no longer for me. Because, to reiterate, I don't feel the same paying 6 points more per night there in Magic season. Some DVC'er had small changes to their vacation stays. Some gained a point or a few....some lost 1, 2, 5 points per trip. We're losing 30 points a trip at OKW. I view points and how I choose to use them based on what I feel the resort has to offer me. This was just too big a jump for us. And don't feel OKW is "worth" that big a jump. But as I said, would have much preferred to have known about the reallocation 90 days before we did our AKV add-on. Would have made the bulk of my points there instead especially with the incentive going on back then.
Maria

 

[Dean]

I had heard about the previous allocation Dean....
I'm sorry you misunderstood, in that you thought that DVC was no longer for me and it was probably best to get out. This is/was not my line of thinking nor what I stated in my post, but I know how things can get misconstrued on message boards. Especially threads that have gone on this long.

DVC is still for me......just in a different way........rather, it is OKW that is no longer for me. Because, to reiterate, I don't feel the same paying 6 points more per night there in Magic season. Some DVC'er had small changes to their vacation stays. Some gained a point or a few....some lost 1, 2, 5 points per trip. We're losing 30 points a trip at OKW. I view points and how I choose to use them based on what I feel the resort has to offer me. This was just too big a jump for us. And don't feel OKW is "worth" that big a jump. But as I said, would have much preferred to have known about the reallocation 90 days before we did our AKV add-on. Would have made the bulk of my points there instead especially with the incentive going on back then.
Maria

Great, glad you're not getting out altogether. I do wonder though if you'd be better off keeping the OKW points and using them elsewhere or at least waiting a couple of years hoping the economy turns around.

 

[MiaSRN62]

I do wonder though if you'd be better off keeping the OKW points and using them elsewhere or at least waiting a couple of years hoping the economy turns around.

We did mull this over for quite some time Dean.

But dh, at this point, is thinking sell OKW and use $ to put down on BLT or another contract on AKV. He's saying he'd rather have "home" advantage there. Before the point reallocation, we were thinking just hold on to OKW. But honestly, we don't feel we want to pay the 6 points extra per night there. But if OKW doesn't sell.....we will def use the points elsewhere.


Maria

 

[tjkraz]

Sorry Tim....but I find this very much self-righteous of you. I'm offended by your insinuation that my statements were not held in "fact".

Maria:

I don't think it was any harsher than your statement claiming that I "like to defend them frequently."

I agree that the timing of the reallocation announcement was suspect. They certainly could have given us more advance notice than 11 months + 7 days (or whatever it ended up being.)

But I have to disagree with your comments about any relationship to the OKW extension. The OKW extension became public knowledge in September 2007 and the reallocation wasn't until January 2009. That's nearly 18 months' separation between the two.

If the reallocation had been announced a couple of weeks after the deadline for extending, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. But 18 months' separation should be enough to suggest there was no relationship.

Whether the points were reallocated in 2009, 2010, 2011, etc., those extending should have done so with the knowledge that it would eventually happen.

If you really want to put the reallocation timing under a microscope, there would never have been a perfect time. If they had announced it 6 months earlier, you could make the same argument about it being unfair to people who had just added on / purchased before that announcement date.

It would have been more member-friendly to give us another month or two's notice. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a financial motivation for their delaying the announcement as long as possible. But I do think any relationship to other events like the RCI contract, OKW extension and even the changing BLT minimums is purely coincidental.

Tim

 

[MiaSRN62]

I don't think it was any harsher than your statement claiming that I "like to defend them frequently."

Well...sorry Tim...but I do feel your insinuation that my posts are not based in fact, much more of an insult. You do dispute almost everything negative I have as an opinion about this reallocation and the OKW extension. So I came to the conclusion that you side with the DVD way of thinking. It's not an insult or harsh in my eyes....it may very well be the way many here see things. I may be in the minority in my way of thinking. I've seen others voice the same comments in regards to your posts.

There's been more than a couple posts between you and I throughout this thread that are like this (so there's a tradition starting here).

So if you find me being "harsh" towards you by stating this, I must let you know that I feel as though I've become compelled to come to this conclusion from your responses towards me. I can't seem to speak my mind or voice my opinion without a retort from you in DVC's favor. You may not be intending this, but it is perceived by me as such. I just feel like I can't comment generally to this thread and to everyone without getting a retort from you. I get that you don't agree with me. Believe me. Many posts throughout this thread substantiate this.

But to accuse someone (me) of not speaking facts is a bit different in my book. Particularily my posts from today. They were based in fact.

So I promise not to comment on your posts anymore if you would kindly do the same with mine. There are more things I could comment on in your most recent post, but I'm dropping it between you and I. I just feel we'll go round and round. Let's just say we respectfully agree to disagree. I feel that's best for everyone. Hope you understand. Thanks Tim.


Maria

 

[tjkraz]

Well...sorry Tim...but I do feel your insinuation that my posts are not based in fact, much more of an insult.

If you will go back and re-read my comment, I never said that your posts were not based in fact. Certainly you have made many keen observations and that's one of the reasons I enjoy these exchanges with you.

What I said was that emotions can sometimes taint discussions such as this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when you state that you have experienced "a breaking down of faith in disney", I read that as meaning that you are predisposed to distrust their actions. You've talked about being hurt by the reallocation and not being able to trust "them."

It goes without saying there are a lot of strong emotions flavoring the discussion.

For my part, I am predisposed to neither trust nor distrust them. (At least, that's what I strive for!) If I seem to be defending DVC over this, I would propose it's only because I'm trying to be a voice of reason an a thread filled with strong negative emotions.

Does that mean I'm always right and you're always wrong? Of course not!

That said, I'm still disappointed that you view me as some sort of DVC apologist. I've been openly critical of their actions on many fronts. But in situations like this I will not simply grab my torch and pitchfork and join with the majority looking to roast them over a spit.

My nature is to evaluate data in as analytical a manner as possible. Admittedly that can be very difficult to do when few hard facts are available. But that shouldn't keep us from drawing logical conclusions. And my goal is to eliminate any emotional influences from my conclusions. It doesn't matter what I think of Jim Lewis, Jay Rasulo or Bob Iger (never met any of them) or how I am personally impacted by the change.

Does that mean I'm right all the time? No way! But if nothing else, hopefully some of my comments will give other readers new perspectives to ponder.

Be well.
Tim

 

[MiaSRN62]

tjkraz : Does that mean I'm right all the time? No way! But if nothing else, hopefully some of my comments will give other readers new perspectives to ponder.

I'm not necessarily saying you are a DVC "apologist" Tim. But your views/opinions seem more closely aligned with recent changes/policies etc and reflect as such in recent discussions here. It's not meant as a harsh or insultive comment. People will think and view things as disney does, or in a more business-like/clinical way. Nothing wrong with that. I just think this is fact. Some people are dead set against disney's way of thinking and carrying out their policies/administrative decisions. Some see what they do as perfectly normal and legit, while others see quite the opposite. And then there is the in-between crowd. I don't think there's anything that can be done to change this situation. People will be on one side or the other of a debate for the most part.


And I did go back re-read your post....before I posted last time. You state : "I'm trying to stick to facts" in a reply to my posts. That posts contains several quotes and they are all from me. So I stated you insinuated that my comments were more emotional and not fact-based like you. You insinuated that some peoples' judgement were clouded by emotion. And this statement was made by you in the post where you quote me throughout. So sorry.....this is how I took what you were saying. It was a back and forth discussion between you and I.

I just feel when someone like myself voices a thought/view/opinion.....we don't necessarily want someone to combat our personal views each and every time. I realize you have valid things to say Tim, but though I may not be as analytical in my approach (that's not in my nature), I still have valid opinions that are factual as well. Nothing worse than being called out on a forum that you have frequented for years and having someone say your comments are muddled up in emotion and perhaps prudent judgment is muddled by such emotion. Makes one feel like they might as well just shut-up and keep their thoughts/opinions to themselves. No, admittedly, I don't know all the political/legality angles of the timeshare industry. That's fact. But does this mean I should not voice my thoughts/views/ideas etc ? I'm beginning to think that from the outcome of my recent posts.

And I feel the same as you do in the above quoted statement you make, as does pretty much everyone who posts their opinions/experiences/thoughts here. We all hope to give a new perspective or offer a different thought process. And we all deserve to do this without being called-out each and every time. We're all gonna agree or disagree from time to time.....I know for a fact that there are some people who are timid about posting on this thread for fear of being called-out or having their comments dissected. And it's not just this thread.....any thread that gets sort of heated or serious, some really do shy away from. Something I'm sort of wishing I had done. But too late now

You be well also Tim.............I'm off to the airport to catch a plane to Orlando now..........so I probably won't be on here for awhile.


Maria

 

[vascubaguy]

... Again poor planning ...

This is something I can agree with and seems to becoming a trend with DVC... which doesn't mesh well with some of us who do try and plan well (though I guess you could argue that if I was planning well I would have spent more money buying points I really didn't need in preparation for these type of changes)...

All I know now is that my vacation plans will have to change some and the "value" of my ownership has been reduced. For me, this has definitely been a cure for add-onitis.

 

[Princess Tink]

I must be in the minority here....I have peeked in every once in a while to see what everyone's thoughts are. An mostly, there have been a lot of negative reacton surrounding this 'change'. I have to admit, change is never easy. But, I do personally like this one. I remember way back when we made our first purchase, the rep making a 'big selling point' out of the weekday points being so much lower. Which I thought was really odd, for some reason. We initially bought in with intentions of staying at our home resort for 8 days in a studio, but then we made the mistake of staying in our first 1BR. We were hooked, and luckily because of the cheaper weekday points we have managed to stay in a 1BR here and there. But, I must admit it, it bothered me that I had to pay double points for weekends. Don't get me wrong, I knew about it....and we planned accodingly. But, it has always bothered me....partially because I remember staying in regular rooms at WDW, and the rooms were the same price 7 DAYS A WEEK. Again, I knew this going into it....and I love my DVC, but I've always had a litte mouse on my shoulder reminding me of it! FFW to last year, we more than doubled our points, so that we could stay in a 1BR for every trip. And I did this with intentions of using points for those HIGH PRICED weekends. Well, I have to say I am happy I made the ADD ON...as I feel with the recent news of the "balancing of points", that although my vacation seems to 'cost' the same amount, I no longer feel guilty for staying weekends now!

Micaela

 

[Chuck S]

A gentle reminder that argumentative/sarcastic posting and personal attacks are not allowed on the DIS.

It is fine to discuss the reallocation, and discuss the pros and cons of each others points. The reallocation will be good for some, and detrimental to others, but the realitity is...what's done is done. We will not change the reallocation simply by discussing it on the DIS. If you feel DVC is no longer a value for your vacation needs, then you really, unfortunately, only have limited options. You can go with the flow and continue using your membershaip as best you can, you can sell your contract (and for long-term OKW owners that is likely at a small profit), or you can rent/transfer your points.

Regardless, it is both a financial AND emotional issue, and any decision you reach will likely be based on both aspects. We don't know what the future may hold for reallocations, but surely most members should have known they were possible, and I thnk we should all expect more reallocations at some point in the future. I will agree that the announcement of it could have been handled better...but that is far from uncommon. Almost all changes within the DVC program have come with very short (if any) notification...like the removal of mugs from studios, the change from II to RCI, the changes in the Concierge collection resorts, etc. The ONLY thing we are truly guaranteed is the ability to reserve stays at our home resort, based upon availability. Everything else can, and likely will, change during the course our ownership.

Again, it is fine to respond to each others points, but please don't make your responses personal.

 

[jodifla]

Due to the point restructuring, we have placed our OKW contract up for sale.

We thought long and hard about it. But the reallocation is causing us to come up 30 points short every year (as I've mentioned before....just restating for some who may not have read this entire thread).

For us, 30 points is a bit much to swallow or cause us to "readjust" or "rethink" our vacation plans. It's too big a departure of why we purchased OKW in the first place back in 2000. Just wish we could have foreseen a jump this large for our situation. But alas, while we have loved our stays at OKW, we just don't feel "she" is worth the extra 6 points PER NIGHT or 30 points for our traditional stay.

My dh and I spoke. We would have been really MUCH more upset than we are had we gone ahead and extended our OKW contract.....I just can't help but to think, disney was really deceptive with us all about this.
I wonder how many who did the OKW extension are disappointed now or would have made another choice had they known about this prior to signing the extension deed ? There were opportunities for disney to have let Members know awhile back. Because I know for one thing, had we had knowlege of this reallocation 90 days before we purchased AKV, we would have added on alot more points.


I find myself a bit distrustful of disney now....

I am more upset about the poor timing and slightly deceptive way disney announced this....so OKW is officially on the resale market for us.


Maria

We extended our OKW purchase. We are still very happy with it and have no plans to sell, but we felt our OKW purchase would maintain its value better with the extension.

We vacation different amounts of times in different units at different times of year, so I'm not upset about the point changes.

In fact, I'm HAPPY that weekends aren't as expensive now. I bought fully knowing that the point allocations could change.

 

[Mick West]

We all bought knowing (or should have known) that there had been a previous reallocation in 1996 and that it was a possibility to happen again. Timeshares change over time, often not for the better, another absolute that anyone buying a timeshare should have known up front. The truth is this is a minority of members but IF it were a majority doesn't make it any less appropriate. The truth is the larger the spread from weekend to weekdays, the more the need for the change. But it's more than simply absolute numbers, you've got to look at when the rooms are book, cash vs points and the LOS. LOL applies to costs for housekeeping.

Sponsors are simply members who gave money to keep DIS afloat and make sure it stayed around as a free site. It was essentially a voluntary payment. A flag was added to their online listing that identified what level they donated at (my paraphrase of what happened). While it may be fact that your situation is affected, it is emotion as to the reasonableness of the change.

Thanks for filling me in on sponsors - and thanks for helping to support the site! We may "agree to disagree" on this reallocation, but on many occassions my wife and I "agree to disagree" - and we've been married 32 years!!

 

[TECHJPM]

When we all bought in we all saw how the points were structured. Now that they are changing that structuring, I think they should really be willing to put it to a vote of owners. I think it is a little shrewd of them to do something like this, as a lot of us bought enough points to do a certain amount of things, and now a lot of us are finding that it will be hard...

On the flip of that... I have been planning at all times for the last year of my ownership. I am under the understanding that our points are only good for a certain amount of months in the last year, so I always calculate in borrowing, as the last year will get the least amount of use.

 

[Chuck S]

When we all bought in we all saw how the points were structured. Now that they are changing that structuring, I think they should really be willing to put it to a vote of owners. I think it is a little shrewd of them to do something like this, as a lot of us bought enough points to do a certain amount of things, and now a lot of us are finding that it will be hard...

On the flip of that... I have been planning at all times for the last year of my ownership. I am under the understanding that our points are only good for a certain amount of months in the last year, so I always calculate in borrowing, as the last year will get the least amount of use.

What would voting accomplish? Assuming that the reallocatioin is for the legitimate reason of equalizing demand, and that perhaps weekends were being underutilized leading to an imbalance of occupancy, if a reallocation was voted down, you would still be left with a problem.

The right solution isn't always the popular solution. And how would you divide the votes? One vote per membership or one vote per point owned? The two types of voting could have very different outcomes.

Who pays to conduct the poll, since a legally binding vote would require a written ballot, with 100,000+ members, you are looking at about $50,000 in mailing and paper costs, plus the fee for an accounting firm to tally the votes.