Disney non-Disneyland Parks:

[NiceBlue]

The first thing to do for Animal Kingdom is to get rid of the shabbiness and rundown look in the communities of Africa and Asia. Some might say, that is reality, but that is the problem. Disney is not about reality, it's about fantasy, it is fake. There is no shabbiness on Disneyland’s Main Street, the buildings are all done in an attractive style. Everything is up to date. Also in the World Showcase the pavilions show off the best of the countries they represent. So, while keeping them, improving the look of the Port of Harambe and the community of Anandapur is important. Then it is important to realize that just as Europe had kingdoms, Africa also had kingdoms before it was colonized. Attractions could showcase one or more of those kingdoms. Africa and Asia had and still have fairy tales and folktales. As Fantasyland in the Magic Kingdom is a European fantasyland, there could be African and Asian fantasylands in the Animal Kingdom.

A good attraction could start with a pre-colonial African family the parents of which would tell their children an African fairy tale with the attraction then showing the tale in the form of animatronics or animation. A similar thing could happen for Asia. In a video I saw a man playing a string musical instrument in the African land. Normally I think of African instruments as drums. An interesting attraction would be to have an orchestra playing all types of African instruments. All of those attractions could be used to fill in the space between the lands.

Then the tacky elements could be removed from Dinoland, all of them. The fantasy could be that visitors went back in time to ride a Dinosaur as in Fantasyland one could ride Dumbo. One possible new ride for Dinoland could be a prehistoric Jungle Cruise, where African Queen type boats would transport visitors along rivers with animatronic dinosaurs along the banks.

Originally Pandora would have been called Beastly Kingdom and would have showcased dragons and unicorns. Currently Pandora appears small and not directly connected to the nearby land Africa. Pandora’s name could be changed to Beastly Kingdom, the Pandoran creatures are imaginary and would be kept and a version of what would have been in Beastly Kingdom could be added. This would make the Pandora area more diverse and connect it to Africa, as well as add more rides.

Lastly, there could be boats used to transport visitors around Discovery River, making two stops, one at Africa and another at Asia. This could take the place of the Disneyland Railroad. Also, as it passes Dinoland (I would change that name) it could pass animatronic dinosaurs.

Tom,

 

[_19disnA]

Is this part of some college level class essay?

 

[BrianL]

The first thing to do for Animal Kingdom is to get rid of the shabbiness and rundown look in the communities of Africa and Asia. Some might say, that is reality, but that is the problem. Disney is not about reality, it's about fantasy, it is fake. There is no shabbiness on Disneyland’s Main Street, the buildings are all done in an attractive style. Everything is up to date. Also in the World Showcase the pavilions show off the best of the countries they represent. So, while keeping them, improving the look of the Port of Harambe and the community of Anandapur is important. Then it is important to realize that just as Europe had kingdoms, Africa also had kingdoms before it was colonized. Attractions could showcase one or more of those kingdoms. Africa and Asia had and still have fairy tales and folktales. As Fantasyland in the Magic Kingdom is a European fantasyland, there could be African and Asian fantasylands in the Animal Kingdom.

A good attraction could start with a pre-colonial African family the parents of which would tell their children an African fairy tale with the attraction then showing the tale in the form of animatronics or animation. A similar thing could happen for Asia. In a video I saw a man playing a string musical instrument in the African land. Normally I think of African instruments as drums. An interesting attraction would be to have an orchestra playing all types of African instruments. All of those attractions could be used to fill in the space between the lands.

Then the tacky elements could be removed from Dinoland, all of them. The fantasy could be that visitors went back in time to ride a Dinosaur as in Fantasyland one could ride Dumbo. One possible new ride for Dinoland could be a prehistoric Jungle Cruise, where African Queen type boats would transport visitors along rivers with animatronic dinosaurs along the banks.

Originally Pandora would have been called Beastly Kingdom and would have showcased dragons and unicorns. Currently Pandora appears small and not directly connected to the nearby land Africa. Pandora’s name could be changed to Beastly Kingdom, the Pandoran creatures are imaginary and would be kept and a version of what would have been in Beastly Kingdom could be added. This would make the Pandora area more diverse and connect it to Africa, as well as add more rides.

Lastly, there could be boats used to transport visitors around Discovery River, making two stops, one at Africa and another at Asia. This could take the place of the Disneyland Railroad. Also, as it passes Dinoland (I would change that name) it could pass animatronic dinosaurs.

Tom,

The "lived-in" vibe at Animal Kingdom is improtant to the sotry they are telling though. It's not the same story as the idyllic Main Street USA. Harambe and Anandapur are intended to look well-used. I don't think of it as "shabby" though - just more rustic.

I am also a staunch defender of the theme for Dinoland USA as I get what they were going for, however they need to add more to it, especially with Primeval Whirl gone. If they did redevelop it, I wouldn't be too sad really, but I dig the roadside attraction vibe.

 

[Karin1984]

If you like (weird) deepdives into themeparks, look up Jenny Nicholson on youtube. She is great, still working on getting through her essay on Evermore, which is almost 4 hours long

 

[Douglas Dubh]

What these parks need is more rides. Especially family rides.

 

[NiceBlue]

19disnA, No, but thank you for thinking it is.

Brian, thank you for this comment and your prior comments. I have not been to Animal Kingdom, having only seen it on videos. If I had been there I may have thought differently, so I’m glad when people who have been to the parks comment. Your statement about the “lived in vibe” explains why they did it, but it is not Disneyland-like. My main point in this thread is to try to come up with reasons why some parks have significantly lower attendance than others, by looking to see how the parks with lower attendance differ in fundamental ways from the parks that do better. One of the fundamental factors is that Disneyland parks including the Magic Kingdom are Fake, Cute and Idealized. I do not see that in Harambe and Anandapur and Animal Kingdom does have significantly lower attendance than the Magic Kingdom. Therefore I expect that changing the aesthetics of those communities to be more like Main Street would increase attendance. So, my statement as to “The First thing to do” etc. is based on increasing attendance. Now, I certainly could be incorrect in my assumption as to what increases attendance, but I don’t see why that would be it and people may like different aesthetics. The same goes for Dinoland. Pandora is different, but is small. Another way to increase attendance could be to increase the number of rides. Thank you for giving me your viewpoint. I’m surprised that more have not done so. I expected to read more feedback regarding Star Wars Land and the lake in the World Showcase. For all let me know if you disagree with my statements.

Karin thank you for the links to the videos. I am looking forward to watching them.

Douglas I agree that what these parks need is more rides and more rides for kids.

Tom,

 

[mom2rtk]

Everyone loves a castle park. Including Disney, which means they give those parks more attention (attractions, shows, live entertainment), which results in more attendance.

 

[NiceBlue]

Momsrtk, thanks for the comment. What I’m trying to discover is why everyone loves a castle park.

Much of the following is from an article entitled “Walt Disney Studios Park Expansion at Disneyland Paris” (updated September 15, 2022). First is the statement “. . . it’s a near certainty that Star Wars: Galaxy’s Edge is no longer part of the expansion plans.” Then “Both Star Wars lands at Disneyland and Walt Disney World are believed to be disappointments . . .” As to the expansion the article mentions Avengers Campus which is already open, “. . . a stunning lake and a promenade of unique gardens, each designed around favorite Disney stories.” A Tangled ride is planned and a large restaurant, as well as an extension of Toy Story. At the far side of the lake will be “The Kingdom [Queendom] of Arendelle.”

While an expansion of this small is positive in regard to increasing attendance. Based on the idea outlined in the first post to this thread it is not a good idea to add a large lake. From appearances visitors will exit Studio 1 and see in the distance Arendelle. This sight will draw them up Hollywood Boulevard, but before they could reach their goal they will come smack in front of the lake and be diverted around the water. Large lakes are not needed in a Disney park, none of the Disneylands nor the Magic Kingdom have large lakes and they do better in terms of attendance than the non-Disneyland like parks. In addition these lakes, while they might look attractive on paper, are disruptive in reality, (World Showcase and the Seven Seas Lagoon for example). Even a small extension of Toy Story Land is just adding more to what already exists, leading to too much of the same thing. Sections for different stories is a good idea. What could be done is to forget about the lake and place Arendelle closer to the entrance of the park so it would be better seen when leaving Studio 1. Behind Arendelle could be sections illustrating stories, such as Tangled, however, it is important not to duplicate attractions that are already in Fantasyland. For example additional attractions and rides could be based on stories of Princesses not strongly represented in Fantasyland. These sub-areas could provide an opportunity to greatly increase the number of rides. Also important is to improve the facades of the structures that already exist. Ratatouille has good aesthetics. The problem there is that it would have been better to have built Ratatouille in California Adventure and build Hollywoodland in Disney Studios.
Tom,

 

[NiceBlue]

Karin, thank you again for Jenny Nicholson’s videos. I watched both and found them interesting and enjoyable. In one video I saw something that I like in Star Wars Land. I think it was the character Rey interacting with a child and they were playing a game, kinda running around and hiding. The child seems really into it. This I feel is much better than having the mean looking Darth Vader and the Stormtrooper walking around. Also Jenny gave some insight as to the building of Star Wars Land and Pandora and why Disney did not get Harry Potter.

Based on the possibility that the main issue in California Adventure is that it is a California themed park in California the first thing to do is remove most of the references to California. In fact maybe changing its name to just Adventure or Fantastic Adventure. Buena Vista Street is a good “Main Street” and the Red Cars have a good aesthetic so they could be kept. The Red Cars could be re-routed up the Performance Corridor to Pixar Pier instead of going to Hollywood Land. Thinking of something far removed from California, both in geography and theme, Hollywood Land could be rethemed as Paris during the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries and re-named “La Belle Epoque.” Next is Avengers Campus which is not about California and which has the potential for a number of stories. Cars Land is set in Arizona and not in California and has good aesthetics, but is not general enough. It seems to be about a town that was stuck in the 1950s when the interstate passed it by. There is not much in Pacific Wharf. Both areas could be combined into a 1950s land. Pixar Pier, it seems, does not add much attendance to the park as there are many parks around the US where one can find the same types of rides. But, it is not about California, it reminds me of Coney Island, the aesthetics are good, particularly the roller coaster and the other attractions are based on a number of different stories. The aesthetics of Paradise Gardens Park seem to be similar to Pixar Pier, except for the rides. And in videos some of the structures of Paradise Gardens make me think of the Middle East. Plus the word Paradise comes from Persan. This got me thinking that this area could be rethemed as Arabic and renamed Arabian Nights. Lastly is Grizzly Peak, which could be renamed and re-themed as Monster Land.

So, with these changes there would be six lands plus the “Main Street,” Buena Vista. New rides and attractions for four of these lands could be the following:

La Belle Epoque (Hollywoodland): Paris is known for many things and one is its sewers, in fact there is a sewer museum in the city. There could be a dark ride of a trip through a haunted sewer with visitors riding in boats. Another new attraction could be a magical art museum, perhaps the Louvre, where iconic works of art come to life similar to the Harry Potter stories. One could be walking along and the Mona Lisa starts talking. There could be a representation of the Moulin Rouge. If that is not possible, because of copyrights, then it could be the Moulin de la Galette, which was a working windmill surrounded by a cabaret. Look up “Bal au Moulin de la Galette” by Renoir to see what it looked like. Then of course there could be a Ratatouille ride.

1950s Land (combination of Cars Land and Pacific Wharf): As Cars Land has a sort of 1950s feel and has good aesthetics most of that would be kept. Rock ‘n’ Roll was big in the 1950s so one new attraction could be Alan Freed’s Moondog Coronation Ball (from 1952). This could be a stage show. Another big thing in the 50s were UFOs and there could be a flying saucer ride. Also, a B Horror movie attraction or ride, as well as a Hula Hoop ride. Barbie and Super Girl could be part of an attraction as they were introduced in the late fifties as were Jet airlines, so a markup of a retro propeller airliner might be interesting. Then of course Disneyland. I’m not sure how interesting this would be, but a showcase with a model of Disneyland when it first opened along with films of its early days would be possible.

Arabian Nights Land (Paradise Garden Park): Two possible rides for this area are Jasmine’s Flying Carpets and Sinbad’s Storybook Voyage similar to the one in Disneysea. In order to avoid just attraction or rides from the movie Aladin, other stories from the Arabian Nights could be considered. One is “The Ebony Horse.” This appears similar to Lotte Reininger’s 1926 animated (stop action) film “The Adventures of Prince Achmed.”

Monster Land (Grizzly Peak): Animatronic monsters could be placed along Grizzly River Run, but call it Monster River Run and elsewhere in the land.

Tom,

 

[NiceBlue]

Disneysea opened in 2001, in 2002 its attendance jumped from 4 million when the park was opened only part of a year to 12 million while Tokyo Disneyland’s attendance dropped from 17.7 million in 2001 to 13 million. Thus with the first full year of Disneysea operation total attendance for both parks grew from 21.7 million to 25 million and attendance at Disneyland dropped by 4.7 million. Between 1992 and 2001, when Disneysea opened, Tokyo Disneyland had the highest attendance of all Disneyland parks. Disneysea appears to have not only increased attendance overall, but also reduced crowding in the Disneyland Park. Further, between 2006 and 2019 Disneysea was in the fourth or fifth spot in regard to attendance of all amusement/theme parks in the world.

The park has seven seas/lands - Mediterranean Harbor, American Waterfront, Port Discovery, Lost River Delta, Arabian Coast, Mermaid Lagoon and Mysterious Island. The American Waterfront has two distinct parts, The Big City (NYC?) and New England. There is also Fortress Explorations, which officially is part of Mediterranean Harbor, but is actually attached to Mysterious Island. Disneysea does not have a Main Street. One enters the park into Mediterranean Harbor with large buildings in an Italian style slanting away on either side and a large body of water in front. Across the water can be seen Mount Prometheus, a volcano with occasional fire erupting from its top. This takes the place of the Princess Castle, however one can not go straight to this mountain, but must detour to the left or right. Going to the right one can move in a sort of spiral following the waters of the park. From what I can see in videos one of the most intriguing seas is the Big City part of the American Waterfront, which contains the Tower of Terror. This structure looks amazing particularly when compared to towers in other non-Disneyland type parks. Other particularly intriguing seas are Mermaid Lagoon, designed primarily for children and Mysterious Island. Mermaid Lagoon is a bright colorful sea with a large inside area. Mysterious Island has a 20,000 league under the sea look. From here one can continue to Fortress Explorations and then back to Mediterranean Harbor.

I am very impressed by Disneysea. While it is certainly not a copy of Disneyland, it contains the six fundamental elements that make Disneyland what it is. It has a good number of rides and attractions, 29 to Tokyo Disneyland’s 39. While at least one of its rides can be considered more thrilling than any Disneyland ride - Raging Sprites has a 360 degrees loop - all of its rides, including that one, are highly imaginary, so it generally has Imagination over Thrills. The structures are idealized, although some in Mediterranean Harbor are big. They appear to be hotels on the edge of the park. The seas/lands are consolidated and are themed in interesting and different ways and the seas are different than any in Disneyland. Finally the seas and attractions are interwoven so they enhance each other.

Minor issues: from the videos Mediterranean Harbor appears big, more so than areas in a Disneyland park. I saw one video where a group of women were sitting on a curb and in the distance was Mediterranean Harbor. The impression I had was that these women were just so tired from walking over a relatively long distance for a theme park. Also, because of the water that goes around the park and the bridges crossing this water, the seas are not as close as they could otherwise be. But these are minor and the whole impression is that the park is very well done and that a good amount of money was spent on it.

Now the surprise. Neither Disneysea or Tokyo Disneyland are owned by Disney. They are totally owned by The Oriental Land Company. Disney does receive licensing fees.

So, here we have it. The most successful non-Disneyland, Disney park is one that is not owned by Disney.

Tom,

 

[NiceBlue]

The design for the original Disneyland is great and the five Disneylands which followed are also great because they are basically copies of the original. The problems with Disney parks started with the opening of the Magic Kingdom in 1971. Not that there was a problem with the Magic Kingdom itself, I think it is great, but the problem is the lake in front of the park and the decision to require virtually all visitors to ride a monorail or a ferry to get to the park. I’m sure the lake and the monorail looked great on paper and that it wasn’t too bad when the park opened with fewer visitors. But now it is a bottleneck both in the morning and the evening. Then Epcot was designed as a World Fair. World Fairs are great, but they are temporary. In addition a Tomorrowland, which already exists a short distance away, made up half the park and a lake was put in the middle of the second half. Amusement parks and theme parks in particular are made for easy walking and having attractions close together so the excitement and the imagination could build off of each one. If I wanted to see a lake there are many that I could go to for free. Then they tried to get by, by combining a working studio and a small theme park in Hollywood Studios. That did not work out too well. Disneyland is fake, it is imagination, but with Animal Kingdom they decided to use real animals surrounded by lots of trees and plants. I read somewhere that Disney was obligated by a contract to build a second park in Paris and they did the bare minimum to fulfill that obligation by building Disney Studios and it shows. Then they gave California Adventure, a park in the middle of California a California Theme and gave Pixar Pier rides that one did not have to go to a Disney Park to experience. The three non-Disneyland parks in WDW - epcot, Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom, seem to suffer from not following the fundamental concepts that made the original Disneyland so successful. Star Wars land seems to be following in that same direction. It is as large as a “land” in the original park - 14 acres - but is limited to one idea. Adventureland, Frontierland, Fantasyland and Tomorrowland are not like that. They have their own themes, but the themes are general. Star Wars land is like a Fantasyland where everything is based on Cinderella. It only has two rides and what is inside the land is purposely designed to look shabby. I’m sure there are some who really like Star Wars, but not everyone feels that strongly about it. So, what Disney did is put all of its eggs in one basket. Further, many of the characters, Darth Vader and the Stormtroopers are not friendly. They act like nazis. That may be good for a film, but not for a theme park. The only character who I’ve seen who is friendly and child appropriate is Rey. And then Disney seems to be putting a large lake in the middle of the Disney Studios expansion. Lakes have caused bottlenecks and extra walking since the opening of the Magic Kingdom and Epcot.

A success came in 2001 with the opening of Disneysea. But this park is not owned by Disney, it is owned 100% by the Oriental Land Company. Its success comes from utilizing the fundamental concepts that worked for Disneyland, but yet if is different from Disneyland. I expect attendance at the Magic Kingdom to increase in the future, thus increasing crowding. To alleviate this a new park could be added to WDW. If that is the case the best idea would be to add a Disneysea. The one thing I would change is to put the waterways completely around the edge of a WDW Disneysea so visitors would not have to cross over the water thus making the park more compact. Also, put the large expanse of water, where the shows are held, to the side so that people would not have to cross it or go around it, but could access it easily for a show. There could be seats there.

Tom,