Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal

[crazy4wdw]

From the Orlando Sentinel:

Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal
By Dan Tracy
Sentinel Staff Writer

October 2, 2009

Walt Disney World offers up to 50 acres for station, backs Orange convention-center stop

Florida has received a last-minute boost from Walt Disney World in its bid for $2.5 billion of federal money to build a high-speed train linking Orlando and Tampa.

Disney says it will support a stop at the Orange County Convention Center, as well as provide up to 50acres of free land for a station. For years, Disney wanted any train that might be built to take a straight shot from Orlando International Airport to its parks, with no other stations.

"While many details are still yet to be worked out, we think this project makes sense for our community," Walt Disney World President Meg Crofton wrote in a letter to the state earlier this week.

Disney's backing is important because it could provide millions of riders to the system, helping to underwrite operation costs for the entire 90-mile route.

There will be intense and widespread competition for the $8 billion set aside by the Obama administration and Congress for creating mass-transit systems featuring trains capable of going at least 110 mph. Today, Florida is electronically transmitting its final application to Washington. Nearly 280 pre-applications, from Los Angeles to Boston and many places in between, were submitted earlier this summer, for a total of $102billion in proposals.

No timetable has been set for announcing the winners, but it's clear that most of the requests will not be filled.


'Very good' odds
Florida proponents, however, are upbeat about the state's chances.

Ed Turanchik, a developer and former Hillsborough County commissioner, called Florida's odds "very good." He runs ConnectUs, a nonprofit formed three months ago with $50,000 donated by a variety of businesses and individuals to promote Florida's high-speed-rail bid.

He maintains the state's decades-long pursuit of a fast train should place Florida at or near the top of the list for those making the decisions at the federal Department of Transportation.

Thanks largely to the work of a defunct high-speed-rail authority, the state has chosen an alignment and completed an environmental-impact study that recently was updated. Florida could start construction within 14 months, with operations beginning late in 2014. Few, if any, of Florida's rivals can make that claim.

"I really think we have the best project in the country. We have all the ingredients," said Nazih Haddad, who oversees the state's proposal for the Florida Department of Transportation.

C.C. "Doc" Dockery, the retired Lakeland insurance magnate who has long worked to bring a fast train to Florida, said Disney's decision to get on board is "big. It really is."

Disney's marketing abilities, he said, "will showcase the first high-speed rail in the U.S. in a way it could never be anywhere else.... What a marvelous opportunity for the Obama administration."

Disney spokeswoman Zoraya Suarez said Disney backs the current plan because it could complement the planned SunRail commuter train that would run from DeLand to Poinciana.

"Our primary concern," Suarez said in an e mail to the Orlando Sentinel, "has always been ensuring that high-speed rail does not prevent our community from building an effective commuter rail system in the future. The proposed route for SunRail would not be impacted by the high-speed rail route that has been selected."

Suarez said Disney would continue offering its Magical Express bus service that takes visitors directly from the airport to hotels on its property. The train, she said, would provide another option.

Crofton's letter did not specify where the station would be located, only that it would be "at or near" the resort. Crofton valued the land at $25 million.

Haddad said the state already owns more than 90 percent of the land needed for the tracks. The property — a 44-foot-wide swath largely down the middle of Interstate 4 — is worth $1 billion, he said.

The terrain, Haddad points out, is flat, which lends itself to speed. And I-4 hosts hundreds of thousands of motorists who daily traipse among Orlando, Lakeland and Tampa — and many of those travelers could be potential passengers.

Stops are planned for Orlando International Airport, the Orange County Convention Center, Walt Disney World near Celebration, Lakeland and the old Morgan Street Jail in downtown Tampa.


Hour's ride each way
One-way fares could be $20, according to ConnectUs. Travel time, including stops, would be about an hour.

Ten corridors were approved in 1991 by the government as eligible for high-speed funding, though there was no money at the time. The Orlando-Tampa route is among that group. Other areas seeking money include Los Angeles to San Francisco, a Midwest hub with Chicago at the center and Washington to New York City.

U.S. DOT spokesman Rob Kulat said agency officials realize there is not enough money to go around, nor enough to fully fund any single venture. This is the beginning, he said, of what could be a 30-year undertaking to enhance rail transit throughout the country.

Florida also is awaiting word on applications it made in August for $270 million to buy the tracks for the planned SunRail commuter train and $30 million to study a high-speed route between Orlando and Miami.

"We're at the point," Kulat said, "of having to sort carefully and going through it."

 

[jlewisinsyr]

I don't see how there is much benefit outside of environmental reasons at least from a tourist perspective. An hour's ride is not that "fast" and there are too many stops in the amount of distance being covered for the train to really run at full speed (or a true fast/high speed rail).

Thumbs up for the environmental reasons, bigger thumbs down for the other reasons.

I'd rather see high speed rail in between NE cities where there are huge traffic issues and tons of flights that travel between them (ie. Boston, NYC, Upstate NY, Washington, etc). The Acella train in the NE corridor has definately helped, but if this line was furthe expanded up the coast or across some of the states (ie. NY) it would be a huge plus and would benefit the average person more then a limited high speed rail really dedicated to tourist consumers, gaining little in terms of shortening travel time.

 

[Cricket2]

All I see coming out of this is construction delays.

I'm assuming the 1 hour is from airport to.... the old jail in Tampa?

Wouldn't airport to airport make more sense?

 

[bookwormde]

Wow it the alignment is complete and environmental impact study is up to date with the “push” to find “ready to build” projects you would think this would be a “slam dunk”.

It is a shame there is not a stop at TPA airport that would be really nice to have a second convenient airport to check prices against.

bookwormde

 

[jar]

TPA would definitely be a better option.

1 hours is definitely Orlando to Tampa, not merely Disney. Disney would probably be 15-20 minutes.

 

[Condorman]

I think Florida/Orlando promised some future tax breaks for Disney. There's no other reason why they would support this. I don't see any advantage for Disney other than them selling or leasing the use of their land. The Disney spokesperson is even quoted as saying it will not replace the Disney Magical Express from the airport, but that it will just provide another option.

To what end?

It is likely there would be only one train stop in all of WDW, from which Disney would still have to build a hub of transportation for buses to further take people to their resorts. Would those buses be DME or regular transit buses? If the latter, could they load entire families with luggage onto them? They weren't built for that. And why would anyone take the train most of the way to their resort just to switch to a bus, when they could have taken the bus all the way to begin with?

I'm as fascinated by technology as the next guy, and there may be an upside for Disney, but there is no benefit for WDW guests from what I can tell.

 

[DC7800]

While I certainly welcome passenger rail development in Florida - badly needed for many years - ideally there wouldn't be so much needless reinvention of the wheel. There is already a perfectly good railroad from Orlando to Tampa, and it runs close enough to the airport that a branch line could be constructed at reasonable cost (indeed, the new line will have to cross the existing CSX tracks anyway). A portion of this track is slated for the Sunrail commuter rail project, giving you more 'bang for the buck' by upgrading a single, existing line than buuilding from scratch and then still spending even more money to upgrade the old line.

For perhaps 1/4 to 1/5 of the cost of this proposal, you could tie the current CSX line into the airport and upgrade tracks for at least a 80-90 minute running time to Tampa, if not faster (currently its about two hours from Orlando at Sligh Street station). Walt Disney World, the convention center, and other destinations could be tied in through a connecting light-rail system (which the region really still needs even if you built both Sunrail and the so-called "high-speed" proposal). Yes, the current proposal would be 20-30 minutes faster, but its like buying a Cadillac when a Chevrolet will get the job done. Again, you could do four or five incremental upgrade projects for the cost of just one "high-speed" construction, and the central Florida region is hardly the only place in the nation which needs (often badly) improved or new passenger rail service. The existing Boston-Washington Northeast Corridor, North Carolina/Virginia, and Midwest rail proposals (Midwest Regional Rail System) all follow this incrmental approach.

Finally, the term "high-speed rail" gets thrown around a lot, but it doesn't always mean what many people think it does. High-Speed rail projects generally involve trains traveling anywhere from 90 mph (versus 79 currently) on freight-shared right of way to 220 mph (or faster) electric trains something like the French TGV, which is what most people think of when they hear of high-speed rail. Ironically, in most cases, that's not what the nations needs most right now. Sure, it'd be really nice - just like having that Cadillac instead of the Chevrolet you actually own - but isn't what you would normally start with as a first-step.

 

[DC7800]

'd rather see high speed rail in between NE cities where there are huge traffic issues and tons of flights that travel between them (ie. Boston, NYC, Upstate NY, Washington, etc). The Acella train in the NE corridor has definately helped, but if this line was furthe expanded up the coast or across some of the states (ie. NY) it would be a huge plus and would benefit the average person more then a limited high speed rail really dedicated to tourist consumers, gaining little in terms of shortening travel time.

The Boston-Washington Northeast Corridor (branches to Albany, Harrisburg, Springfield, and minor extensions to Richmond and Portland. Maine) is an effective high-speed rial line, which has followed the incremental approach to development. There was never money available to do anything else regardless - which is exactly the problem. You have shiny new Acela trainsets (mechanically they're junk, but I digress...) running under 1930's catenary and through tunnels which were built right after the war - the Civil War. Here again, rather than building an all-new high-speed passenger railroad, it will be far more cost effective to incrementally upgrade and improve the existing tracks.

New York State paid for a stillborn project to rebuild Turboliner trainsets (they do look like sleek, high-speed trains) for the New York City to Albany Empire Corridor, and there were even proposals for a non-electric version of Acela which made it as far as construction of an experimental turbine-powered locomotive. Any funds for New York would likely go at least partially towards this 110 mph project, but with conventional equipment.

 

[doconeill]

Acela was a great idea partially implemented.

They set it up to use the existing Northeast Corridor, which has a number of sharp curves, etc. that do not allow for fast speeds. They didn't get rid of all the grade crossings, etc. which necessitate slower speeds. The top speed is 150MPH, but you do that twice for a couple of minutes between RI and CT.

I believe the catenary was at least improved to support it, except perhaps for some sections from CT inward to NYC/Penn Station. As I understand it (and it may not have been true), CT DOT refused to be part of a number of improvements that would have increased speeds somewhat.

Everyone thinks of high speed rails as being like the shinkansens in Japan - but those were built on entirely new right-of-ways designed to allow much higher speeds without the "funky" tech that Acela used and not do share lines with freight and other trains. Hopefully this new rail link will be more like that. But it is not like we have FRA-compatible high speed equipment widely available, which will make it expensive.

 

[manning]

While I certainly welcome passenger rail development in Florida - badly needed for many years - ideally there wouldn't be so much needless reinvention of the wheel. There is already a perfectly good railroad from Orlando to Tampa, and it runs close enough to the airport that a branch line could be constructed at reasonable cost (indeed, the new line will have to cross the existing CSX tracks anyway). A portion of this track is slated for the Sunrail commuter rail project, giving you more 'bang for the buck' by upgrading a single, existing line than buuilding from scratch and then still spending even more money to upgrade the old line.

For perhaps 1/4 to 1/5 of the cost of this proposal, you could tie the current CSX line into the airport and upgrade tracks for at least a 80-90 minute running time to Tampa, if not faster (currently its about two hours from Orlando at Sligh Street station). Walt Disney World, the convention center, and other destinations could be tied in through a connecting light-rail system (which the region really still needs even if you built both Sunrail and the so-called "high-speed" proposal). Yes, the current proposal would be 20-30 minutes faster, but its like buying a Cadillac when a Chevrolet will get the job done. Again, you could do four or five incremental upgrade projects for the cost of just one "high-speed" construction, and the central Florida region is hardly the only place in the nation which needs (often badly) improved or new passenger rail service. The existing Boston-Washington Northeast Corridor, North Carolina/Virginia, and Midwest rail proposals (Midwest Regional Rail System) all follow this incrmental approach.

Finally, the term "high-speed rail" gets thrown around a lot, but it doesn't always mean what many people think it does. High-Speed rail projects generally involve trains traveling anywhere from 90 mph (versus 79 currently) on freight-shared right of way to 220 mph (or faster) electric trains something like the French TGV, which is what most people think of when they hear of high-speed rail. Ironically, in most cases, that's not what the nations needs most right now. Sure, it'd be really nice - just like having that Cadillac instead of the Chevrolet you actually own - but isn't what you would normally start with as a first-step.

There is a reason it is being done the way it is and it is called.....GOVERNMENT !!!

 

[gkrykewy]

There is a reason it is being done the way it is and it is called.....GOVERNMENT !!!

No transportation project, be it road or transit, breaks even. Ergo, government.

 

[BamaEd1]

This is a completely bad idea for one reason; the government is trillions of dollars in debt. Taxpayers in places other than Florida shouldn't be forced to pay for a Florida transportation project. I don't want my grandkids paying for this (and a lot of the other crap the government is spending money on).

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

Good point. If this project can't pay back the money it takes to build it it shouldn't be done.

If it can get enough of the money back then go ahead. To do that the project needs to be focused on transporting workers as well as tourists with a big effort to link in the Tampa and Saint Pete airports easily...by bus if need be. Additionally the beaches should be linked in by express bus. That would give the tourists an opportunity to make almost any kind of vacation plan rather than being held hostage to one theme or another.

Of course I'd settle for a decent bus line from Atlanta to Orlando.

 

[eeyorepixie]

honestly, every time Disney sells or gives away land it bums me out because that is more property that will NOT be Disney. I am fine with the ME!

 

[A Mickeyfan]

I think Florida/Orlando promised some future tax breaks for Disney. There's no other reason why they would support this. I don't see any advantage for Disney other than them selling or leasing the use of their land. The Disney spokesperson is even quoted as saying it will not replace the Disney Magical Express from the airport, but that it will just provide another option.

To what end?

It is likely there would be only one train stop in all of WDW, from which Disney would still have to build a hub of transportation for buses to further take people to their resorts. Would those buses be DME or regular transit buses? If the latter, could they load entire families with luggage onto them? They weren't built for that. And why would anyone take the train most of the way to their resort just to switch to a bus, when they could have taken the bus all the way to begin with?

I'm as fascinated by technology as the next guy, and there may be an upside for Disney, but there is no benefit for WDW guests from what I can tell.

actually, it will get more people to and from their resort without having to be around outside influences and a chance to spend your money elsewhere! Disney wasn't offered a tax break but they have their own motive for wanting this.

 

[A Mickeyfan]

I think this entire project is a joke! Instead of building a high speed rail system where there is already an Amtrak System (somewhat close to where this will be built), they need to build any type of rail system extending from Tampa down to SW Fl. We down here have no rail system what so ever here. To get to Amtrak, we must be bussed up to Tampa or east over to Miami. At least on the East Coast there is a rail system in place.. forget the high speed and build any speed on along the Gulf of Mexico... but oh, I forgot, that doesn't benefit Disney so it will not happen.

 

[seashoreCM]

How many guests use this "high speed train" will depend on what kind of transportation is available from the train station to points inside WDW and how permissible it is to bring all one's baggage aboard both the train and the final leg transportation.