Direct Purchase benefits announced!

[maminnie]

I've just been lurking through what...all 16 pages of this thread. You very simply summed up my feelings exactly!

Deide71:

Thanks.

In the difficult economy that we are in and many people likely having to sell rather then wanting to sell, this annoucement really disturbs me. Taking away benefits because you don't buy direct will eventually catch up to those that do buy direct as well if they too have to unfortunately sell sometime in the future.

With only two months to react and many properties listed on resale, there really isn't even the option to make a good and educated decision as an owner. So in the end we as members just have to accept yet again another 'member enhancement' as DVC calls it. And if you read in previous posts about an article in the Orlando paper quoting a DVC employee, it indicates that direct owners even asked for this.....this is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard!

The whole thing is pretty sad.....and I agree with those that feel that membership as a whole both direct and resale has been devalued.

 

[Sammie]

if they grandfather purchases in before 3/20/11. is it still worth buy. My family enjoy staying at places like Grand Flordian. is it tough getting a reservation at those places?

If you enjoy the Grand Floridian, I would not recommend buying DVC. It is better to pay cash than use points.

 

[lonebadger]

If you enjoy the Grand Floridian, I would not recommend buying DVC. It is better to pay cash than use points.

why would that be? wouldn't you eventually pay for the DVC if you kept paying cash for grand floridian every years?

 

[DVC92]

All you can sell is what you own, a single timeshare contract. The perks, exchange options, etc are not and never were contractual and a retail purchaser acknowledged that in writing and a resale buyer technically and legally assumes those limitations as well. You did not contract for those other options, they were handed to you as value added options with the express understanding that they could change or be eliminated without notice. Any position to the contrary, including the position that all have to be treated equally, are simply not accurate.

Technically, I believe the contract incorporates the POS which references that perks may be established. Therefore, any existing perks are bestowed upon members only as a result of having an ownership interest stemming from the contract. Since any particular contract is inclusive of the perks that are presently available, and as you say, a resale buyer assumes the limitations of the contract they are purchasing, the established perks for that contract should legally pass to the buyer.

 

[Longhairbear]

..... Disney hasn't bought any property back except for Beach Club since February of 2010. ....

Jason

Do you have any opinion, or theories why Disney is only buying Beach Club?
Could Disney sell those points as new, or reconfigure them to a fixed week program?

 

[disneynutz]

Do you have any opinion, or theories why Disney is only buying Beach Club?
Could Disney sell those points as new, or reconfigure them to a fixed week program?

There is always a demand for BCV points so it's easy money for Disney. As far as the other resorts, they still have inventory at AKV, BLT, and Aulani, plus members gave their points back to DVD and the foreclosures increased. Disney decided to stop exercising ROFR, why buy when you can get the points for free?

Bill

 

[Lil' Grumpy]

are they moving the parks? a disney vacation club "interest" is all
about having lodging @ wdw. while we take alot dcl cruises ,we
didn't buy our points for that. i don't see a decline of people
going to wdw. if anything, wdw always seem busy anymore.

we are blt owners. we just stayed for our first visit over
christmas & new years. our first room was something special.
the second would have been except, the vandalism. i have
never seen such damage to a room before. for ex., the carpet
was ruint because someone pick up a scooter and laid
rubber across it. whoever causes such destruction do not
belong there or anywhere on disney property. [ & our dues better
not be paying for this] .

i went over twice to the office. iam getting fed up being lied
too. there's something wrong with that part of dvc. it will
not deter me from following up. no manager from the contemp. or
a dvc person came to see this room. tells me they already knew.

we saw alot people that do not belong @ blt. what kinds? those
stealing the shower heads & air mattresses. those destroying the
marble trim inside the south elevator. those covering the table
top with nail polish. people not staying there, but were running all
over the place. groups of young ladies not wearing proper
clothing ..i don't want them around my daughter to see. nor do i.

yes i think some changes are needed. however, i think every
dvc property has value. every place is on site @ wdw. that
demand alone is something precious. we built our fortunes
together, starting @ the begining. i can remember staying off site
and having envy for those staying on site. how lucky they are.
unless they move the resorts off site, then i don't see anything
being devalued. except for the destruction.

 

[Sandisw]

I agree that the perks were capable of being changed or eliminated. As I stated, I have no problem with that; however, your contract should convey whatever exists for you at the time of sale.

But that is it, the perks are not part of our contract, so in essence, that piece has not changed.

 

[Sandisw]

if they grandfather purchases in before 3/20/11. is it still worth buy. My family enjoy staying at places like Grand Flordian. is it tough getting a reservation at those places?

If your goal is to buy DVC to stay at resorts other than DVC, then I think you need to do a bit more research to see how expensive that is in terms of points. For example, a room at the GF, in certain seasons, can be as much as a 2 bedroom DVC villa.

But, trading out to the WDW resorts is not part of anyone's contract and subject to change at the will of DVC. So, even if you buy now and are grandfathered in, at some point, they can take this away from everyone.

If that is the main reason you are buying, DVC is not going to be a good fit for you. If you are thinking that you want that option as long as it is available, then yes, you could buy now and close prior to the 3/20 deadline.

 

[psac]

As far as value, get it before you sell.

That's how I see this for my own finances. Granted, it would be nice to have a robust resale market, but I got in knowing my DVC resale purchase would pay for itself in 5 years or less. After that, anything else is gravy.

Obviously though, having SOME sort of resale market is still important for the impression of worth, so if I ever wanted to get out of the maintenance fees, it would be good to be able to do so, even if it's at a low $/pt.

Of course this is not the same for everyone. I'm lookin at this like a car purchase, not a real estate purchase. (Most real estate doesn't go away in 50 or however many years.)

 

[maminnie]

I sold my contract a couple of years ago and have been looking at buying back in, both direct and on resale.

People are saying this really doesn’t affect me and all of that, but some day it might. If I remember correctly the only thing really guaranteed is the right to use your points at your home resort. In other words being able to use your VWL points at BWV is a perk that can be taken away.

So although this change may not affect many, It would not affect me because I only stay at WDW, what’s to say this is not just the first step. If they ever start making deep cuts into the re-sale value, such as having to stay at your home resort it will significantly affect resale values, and affect anyone who has an unforeseen circumstance that forces them to look at selling, both in money recouped and speed of the sale.

When I bought I never intended to sell, but when I had to I was glad the value was still there. I hope this is not just the first step. I am seriously concerned about buying new or resale, because if they keep taking away from the value of re-sales a big part of what I liked about DVC is gone.

Found this post early on in this thread and feel this says so much.....yet again another change, member enhancement, etc. that may not effect a member today, but in the long run it may effect the member down the road. The more we lose as members whether a direct buyer or resale buyer, the worse it is for ALL MEMBERS. Remember MANY of the sellers in the resale market today were once DIRECT BUYERS.

I understand what the contract reads but part of the perceived benefit with DVC was the TOTAL package and what it offered in vacation opportunity and selection. I have used my points to cruise and for the Disney collection despite those that think it is an poor way to use points. I would not want to not have had this option.

Personally I was considering adding on at one of my exisiting resort ownerships and will NOT either direct or resale because of the negative changes (member enhancements according to DVC) that have occurrred to members over the last years. These changes may not have effected some members but they did effect me. This change is a big one and IMHO has devalued everyone's membership. In a blink of an eye, the direct buyer today could be the resale seller tomorrow....haven't so many unfortunately learned this in this very difficult economy.

So what is DVC's intention....I'm sure we can all figure that one out. Why do you think that Mouse is always smiling?????

 

[chalee94]

There is nothing driving prices up, only lower.

actually, jason mentioned that more people were aware of resales now. more demand actually would drive the price up. (and the contracts were only ever worth what someone was willing to pay.)

And the thing to remember here is Disney still controls the minimum resale price!

still not true. if dean is the only one interested in buying your contract for a lowball offer, then dean controls the minimum resale price.

So now I'm wondering if Disney will be going to the opposite extreme of ROFR and become completely hands off. Just let the resale market fall wherever it will.

jason just said that DVC hasn't ROFRed anything but BCV since feb 2010 (from TTS anyway). armageddon happened almost a whole year ago. didn't you notice?

 

[gigsmoke]

Disney is taking Money from each of us by significantly decreasing the value of an investment that you made. it may or may not make financial sence to use your points as some of the non-dvc resorts, but you had a choice. People are going to pay far less for an asset that gives them less choices. To me this is the equivalent of saying since you did not buy your home off the builder directly - you are not allowed to use the sidewalks in the neighborhood. that is going to hurt your ability to sell your home later. I think people should be flooding disney with complaints, otherwise you are saying it is OK fior disney to devalue your assets to attempt to increase theirs. I am not sure this is the place to start but I will be emailing my complaints to dvcmembersatisfactionteam@disneyvacationclub.com and doing so often.

 

[webcs]

I have been told that rofr has to have your submission by their deadline.

So they can't just delay you in rofr
If they have it they will honor it if it passes.
That is what I am told.

 

[tjkraz]

jason just said that DVC hasn't ROFRed anything but BCV since feb 2010 (from TTS anyway). armageddon happened almost a whole year ago. didn't you notice?

I do believe Jason's comments were limited to contracts submitted by TTS. If you seek out the ROFR thread here there are indications of contracts being picked up at other resorts. However they are few and far between.

DVC apparently does still have some price at which they will not allow contracts to change hands, but what that number may be is anyone's guess.

Disney is taking Money from each of us by significantly decreasing the value of an investment that you made. it may or may not make financial sence to use your points as some of the non-dvc resorts, but you had a choice. People are going to pay far less for an asset that gives them less choices. To me this is the equivalent of saying since you did not buy your home off the builder directly - you are not allowed to use the sidewalks in the neighborhood. that is going to hurt your ability to sell your home later. I think people should be flooding disney with complaints, otherwise you are saying it is OK fior disney to devalue your assets to attempt to increase theirs. I am not sure this is the place to start but I will be emailing my complaints to dvcmembersatisfactionteam@disneyvacationclub.com and doing so often.

My comments aren't likely to change your mind but it does sound like you went into this with unrealistic expectations. DVC is not an "investment" in any way, shape or form. It's an expense. A purchase. You pay money--you get points. And nothing has changed regarding when/where/how you can use those points.

A better analogy might be purchasing an iPod or an iPad with the expectation that you can sell it on eBay or Craig's List next year to buy the newer model. Yes the asset does have some value but any perception of what that value might be a year or two down the road is just guesswork. Could Apple do something which dramatically reduces the resale value of that iPod/iPad? Absolutely!

As another poster said, any "losses" that we have experienced are simply paper losses. Whether you've been a member for 19 years or 19 days, benefits will not be changing.

I'm not going to pretend that I'm completely comfortable with this decision but this policy change doesn't alter the product that I bought. DVC still gives me exactly what I signed up for 8 years ago.

The DVC market is very different than it was 2-3 years ago. When Disney spends $120 million on land in Hawaii or commits a plot of land on the Magic Kingdom's doorstep for the next 50 years, they have to maximize those investments. Shareholders demand that Disney do so. (Don't scoff--Disney wasn't in very good shape a few years back when Wall Street turned on Eisner.)

Before buying into DVC I made my own mental list of things that would concern me down the road. On that list were things like stopping active point sales, farming out Member Services to another Timeshare manager, selling the resorts, selling the theme parks (a lot can happen in 50 years!) and changing the booking windows.

This decision does give me reason to start looking over my shoulder, but overall it's a pretty minor blip on the radar. I think the doom and gloom predictions are premature.

 

[chalee94]

I do believe Jason's comments were limited to contracts submitted by TTS. If you seek out the ROFR thread here there are indications of contracts being picked up at other resorts. However they are few and far between.

DVC apparently does still have some price at which they will not allow contracts to change hands, but what that number may be is anyone's guess.

yep but if the prices they are selling at over at TTS are successful with no regard for ROFR, then that suggests they are priced at a reasonable market price - where supply and demand intersect - and are not being "propped up" artificially by ROFR.

i'm not saying there's not a small window of ROFR-effect. if dean is willing to offer $50 per pt and he knows that DVC might ROFR it at less than $52 per pt, he might go up to $52 per pt. (he might not if he's not in a hurry - he might just keep offering $50 until it goes through.) but if DVC is ROFRing anything under $55 or $60, dean is more likely to drop out of the market and use the cash elsewhere.

ROFR just means that if a desperate seller is willing to settle for dean's lowball, that DVC gets to decide whether dean can take advantage of the seller...or whether they do. the seller still gets taken either way. the notion that the seller is "protected" in some form by ROFR is a fantasy.

 

[jarestel]

Disney is taking Money from each of us by significantly decreasing the value of an investment that you made.

At the risk of exposing mental shortcomings, I must say that:
a) I purchased a timeshare interest, not an investment property, and
b) I signed a document stating I was purchasing a timeshare interest and not making an investment

So the investment angle is really a moot point, since it's NOT an investment. If I had to sell my interest, my position is, and has always been, to just be thankful I could get anything back, since timeshares are not especially known as quality vehicles for ROI.

I neither like or dislike this latest change. (I'm hoping this statement of neutrality will save me from confinement in more peaceful and serene settings) It is simply another change and the one thing we can all count on is that it won't be the last.

 

[psac]

We just bought resale, and the ROFR concern did come into our thoughts in terms of not trying an offer that was "below market". So I think you're right in that the supply/demand creates the market, but the ROFR helps prevent too much of huge variance on the low side off that market. But if this change moves the market, ROFR is not going to have any effect on that!

 

[csharpwv]

If this change does indeed dramatically drop the bottom out of the resale market - and point values are cut in 1/2 - that just means that Disney will be able to buy more contract back to resell at retail.

If OKW is on the resale market for $80.00 right now - and after the change takes effect that value drops to $40.00 - that means Disney can buy twice as many points as they could before the change took effect.

So this is a market manipulation that will impact owners more than DVC.
For owners that aren't sure they get their value out of DVC currently - they had best exit the market now by selling off, because face it - IF resale price drop, that means that for anyone who would need to sell, their value is following suit.

If you own - and intend to own until your contract expires, your value is and always will be there - because DVC like any other timeshare IS NOT an investment.

Investments do not COST the investor every year, they make money for the investor.

While yes, you do SAVE money through timeshare/vacation club ownership over time - it will never put cash in your pocket on a yearly basis like an actual investment would.

DVC isn't in this to make money for other people.

They are in the vacation ownership business - they will rarely if ever make decisions that are to the sole benefit of owners. At best, decisions will be mutually beneficial. At worst - DVC will make out like a bandit.

We are homeowners - we own it's problems - we own it's imperfections, we own its creaks, it's cracks, and we even own the yard. We carry the keys in our pocket.

We are DVC owners - we own the right to vacation at our home resort how ever often our points allow us to vacation there. That's all we own. I don't cut the grass, I don't paint the walls, I don't replace the appliances, I don't replace the light bulbs, I don't fix the A/C when it breaks, and I don't feed the animals (at AKV). DVC does that - I pay them to do that so the resort looks and feels like it should when I visit. That's what the contract we signed equates to.

Ownership gives owners the right to use the property they own - and nothing else. While I do think that it stinks that the value of what I own could be diminished greatly by DVC's decision - I agreed to the terms and conditions when I bought - and signed on the line.

We can't envision selling our ownership at any point in time - but I can envision all the memories that we will have, all the stress reduction that will happen, all the smiles, all the laughs, and even all the tears I shed during Illuminations, Wishes, and even Festival of the Lion King - and Finding Nemo: The Musical.

There is no great injustice being done to people who wish to sell their ownership. If hindsight were 20/20 we all would have bought thousands of shares of Apple stock at pennies a share and sold them - or held on to them when things started riding high!

I know this might sound a little harsh - but that's what a contract is for. It tells you exactly what you agree to - and exactly what you are being offered. If you agree to the contract you sign it - if you do not agree, you walk away. The contract clearly states that some things may change - and some things may stay the same - and those things are clearly defined in the contract.

If owners feel that what they agreed to by signing the contract is not being upheld to the letter of the legal instrument - then the owner should seek legal advice to pursue compensation for devaluation of their ownership interest.

It would take a class action suit to produce the monetary resources necessary to take on DVC/DVD.

 

[JWG]

I blame Dave over at DVC Rentals. Clearly this was a ploy to reduce resales and drive up the renting of points instead.

Totally kidding!

I can't say enough that to consider DVC a financial investment is a bad idea. It's a leasehold, so it will have a small window of upside. New properties being sold by Disney obviously have a "cap" on value because you can still buy direct. So, you won't make your money back in the very short-term. Older properties nearing expiration dates will have some formula of decreased value as that date continues to approach. So, your window of opportunity to turn a profit on DVC is relatively small all things considered. Especially with dues.

So, unless you buy with the sole intent of renting points every year to cover dues costs and then are able to sell in that small window of opportunity where resales are high due to demand an low availability, you won't make money.