Dilemma: There is no Pro-Life candidate

[IMGONNABE40!]

Sure, it is easy to pass up Kerry if you are pro-life. But what about Bush and his delight in...errr stand on capital punishment? And how about this questionable war in Iraq? To say between capital punishment and the war, we have not lost as many lives in a year as we lose each week (maybe even each day?!) to abortion seems a bit simplistic since it is not the numbers but the principle.

So, I am at a dilemma and leaning towards leaving my chad hanging come election day. Anyone else struggling with this?

 

[wvrevy]

Yes, Kerry is pro-choice....But that is a civil liberties decision on his part, not necessarily a morality one. I think he believes, as I do, that abortion is the wrong choice for a woman to make. However, he also believes, as I do, that it is not the government's responsibility to tell women what medical decisions to make about their own bodies.

What Kerry would NEVER do is gloat about how many people his state has executed, and he would NEVER do so about a particular execution, as Bush did when he was the governor of Texas. Kerry DOES care about life other than his own....George Bush has never shown any interest in anyone's life other than his own and his rich cronies.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I will offer my opinion on this subject. I believe that the whole issue of abortion should be dealt with seperately. In other words I do not include that as part of my decision. My interest for our country is other things.

If you are pro-life don't get an abortion. It is that simple for me. To place that on a political party is strange to me.

As far as capital punishment I haven't really come to gripes with the right answer for that. I do not like the way it is handled, that is for sure.

 

[IMGONNABE40!]

It is not that simple for me. To me, that is like saying--"so you think murder is wrong? Then don't murder anyone, but let others make that choice for themselves." I support laws which provide penalties for murder, manslaughter, etc. and I think that the unborn should be included in the proscription. For someone who is pro-life, standing idly by while our country permits a whole class of people to be unjustly slaughtered is very difficult, perhaps even sinful. For us, it is as bad as saying we should repeal the laws against murder, rape, child molestation...all of the most heinous crimes.

I understand that many do not feel as I do. In fact, I used to feel exactly the way you both do, wrevy and Mystery Machine. But the more I thought about it, the less sense it made to me. I believe that the root of many of our societal ills is that we have for so long beleived that politics/government should be separated from morality issues because we interpret morality to be religion and we have a firm belief in separation of church and state.

 

[wvrevy]

I don't want to come off as being argumentative here ( ) but it IS that simple. Morality simply should NEVER be legislated, in my opinion. Does that mean that murder and theft should be legalized ? Absolutely not, because they disturb the ORDER of society, which is what government is supposed to be in charge of preserving.

As for the death penalty issue.....I'm uncomfortable with the idea of the state taking away the life of one of it's citizens, regardless of the reasoning behind it. At the same time, I recognize that some crimes are simply unforgivable (though I'd place child molestation at the top of that list rather than murder), and deserve nothing less....What I would LIKE to see is a national study as to how it is USED.

 

[caitycaity]

I don't want to come off as being argumentative here ( ) but it IS that simple. Morality simply should NEVER be legislated, in my opinion. Does that mean that murder and theft should be legalized ? Absolutely not, because they disturb the ORDER of society, which is what government is supposed to be in charge of preserving.

 

[Microcell]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I don't want to come off as being argumentative here ( ) but it IS that simple. Morality simply should NEVER be legislated, in my opinion. Does that mean that murder and theft should be legalized ? Absolutely not, because they disturb the ORDER of society, which is what government is supposed to be in charge of preserving.

One could argue that abortion disturbs the order of society.

 

[teachingmyown]

The atrocity that we like to euphimistically call "pro-choice" in this country is very different from capital punishment or the war in Iraq.

The 4200 babies murdered each day have never had the choice to either commit a capital crime or defy international sanctions.

If every other campaign issue were to swing in Kerry's favor, I would still not vote for him as long as his position is to simply look the other way. The idea that he thinks it is a personal wrong but a national right is repulsive. It is reminiscent of the Nazis.

 

[caitycaity]

Originally posted by Microcell
One could argue that abortion disturbs the order of society.

how exactly?

one could also make the argument that abortion is actually helpful to our society. it cuts down on overpopulation.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Microcell
One could argue that abortion disturbs the order of society.

Not that I've ever seen. The anti-abortion argument, for the most part, is one of pure emotion. They argue that "babies" are being killed, despite the fact that in 99% of abortions the amount of tissue removed is less than you'd lose if you had a mole removed. The anti-abortionist argument is flawed, simply because they consider this extremely small mass a "baby" rather than what it is: an embryo. It's like going out into your back yard, picking up an acorn and tossing it into a trash can...then saying that you just cut down a tree. It's just not an accurate comment.

But if you have an argument that abortion "disturbs the order of society" that I haven't considered, I'm certainly willing to listen.

 

[caitycaity]

The idea that he thinks it is a personal wrong but a national right is repulsive. It is reminiscent of the Nazis.

come again???

 

[IMGONNABE40!]

We have legislated morality since the beginning. Just ask a rapist or a pedophile.

But really, whether or not you and I believe that morality should be legislated aside, I do not think we are so far apart. We just differ on who is protected by our laws. If the unborn are not to be protected, then abortion makes sense. (Though I am not sure why or how someone like Scott Peterson can be charged in the death of his child then if the unborn are an unprotected class... ) If you believe that the unborn should be part the class of citizens protected by our laws, then abortion is murder--one of those crimes that "disturb the order of society".

 

[KarenC]

I am pro-choice but I respect your consistency in your values for life on both extremes of the human condition (innocent fetus vs. hardened criminal). I would suggest you look at the candidates and determine which provides the most respect for life and base your decision on that.

I question how legitimate the pro-life position of the Republican party really is. It's a wonderful wedge issue for them because people feel very strongly about and will vote pro-life. Since a number of their other policies aren't necessarily in the best interest of these pro-life voters. If they lose the wedge issue, they lose these voters too.

I think you need to look at other issues important to you and decide who best represents all the other issues that are important to you. We are all multi-dimensional people and none of us should confine ourselves to a single issue when we go to the polls.

Good luck as you make your decision.

 

[caitycaity]

I think you need to look at other issues important to you and decide who best represents all the other issues that are important to you. We are all multi-dimensional people and none of us should confine ourselves to a single issue when we go to the polls.

my dh is pro-choice and anti-death penalty but as far as i know, he is planning on voting republican on election day.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by IMGONNABE40!
We have legislated morality since the beginning. Just ask a rapist or a pedophile.

But really, whether or not you and I believe that morality should be legislated aside, I do not think we are so far apart. We just differ on who is protected by our laws. If the unborn are not to be protected, then abortion makes sense. (Though I am not sure why or how someone like Scott Peterson can be charged in the death of his child then if the unborn are an unprotected class... ) If you believe that the unborn should be part the class of citizens protected by our laws, then abortion is murder--one of those crimes that "disturb the order of society".

And, again, you are not understanding....Rape and molestation are violent crimes against SOCIETY as much as against a single victim. They disturb the public ORDER, and therefore SHOULD be legislated against.

Scott Peterson's baby would have been viable had it been born at the time it was murdered...THAT is the difference....(In case you can't tell, I'm against late term abortions).

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by teachingmyown
It is reminiscent of the Nazis.

Wow -- usually it takes three or four pages of an abortion thread for the comparison to Nazi's to occur.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by wvrevy

Scott Peterson's baby would have been viable had it been born at the time it was murdered...THAT is the difference....(In case you can't tell, I'm against late term abortions).

I was about to post the same thing, so I'll save the keystrokes and just add a

 

[beattyfamily]

Kerry voted NO on banning partial birth abortions and that is one of the main reasons I'm voting for Bush.

 

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by caitycaity
how exactly?

one could also make the argument that abortion is actually helpful to our society. it cuts down on overpopulation.

if that argument were made then the argument could also be made that homicide cuts down on overpopulation....

 

[IMGONNABE40!]

Thank you KarenC. I do think it would be agregious for me not to cast a vote for president while I am in the booth, so I will keep your suggestions in mind.

Thank you too, wrevy for the clarification. One argument I would put forth for abortion disturbing the order of our society is that it lessens the respect for life overall. The thing that brought me to this conclusion was the rash of news reports of young girls giving birth in restrooms, or elsewhere and simply leaving the baby to die. The most notable was the NJ prom girl I guess. The other way I believe that abortion disturbs the order of society is the profound impact having an abortion has had on many women who have had abortions. For many, it is something that stays with them for life. Much more of a traumatic impact than, say, having a mole removed, to use a prior analogy. We as a society lull women into believing that abortion is okay because it is legal and many of these poor women suffer long term emotional effects. Not to mention the loss of potential to society from those unborn children. It is also quite possible, that God, as you understand him or her, is really peeved that we allow this to go on in our country and is less inclined to keep the blessings flowing. We are still richly blessed as a nation, but still, some things are happening that make me wonder whether or not there is a Sodom and Gomorrah effect going on.