Detroit Bailout -- Do you support it?

[leahjade]

On the news today - all the Big 3 Auto executives took SEPARATE private jets to DC to beg for money from the taxpayers. This just needs to stop - a big NO from me.
Also, were the figures for average worker's pay including benefits - Big 3 is $79 per hour compared to Honda or Toyoto's made in US by US citizens is $49 - duh, could that have something to do with success?

 

[Colleen27]

Very simple one word answer: UNIONS

UAW And Why Honda And Toyota Workers Are Not Interested
Posted March 27 2007 12:54 PM by staff


To the Japanese automobile manufacturers, unions are the plague. And the United Auto Workers (UAW) admit to having a tough time getting new union members when they visit Japanese manufacturers' plants (called 'transplants') in the U.S. "People just aren’t interested," said one union organizer.


The Japanese auto makers in the U.S. seem to be winning their battle with the UAW because the people they employ seem convinced that the benefits are good and that the union couldn't do any better. Moreover, these auto makers tend to build plants in the U.S. in areas that have a low average wage for laborers.

Worse, conditions are better in transplants in some areas. An example of a happy plant of workers is in the Toyota plant in Georgetown, Kentucky. The workers are now being paid more and getting better bonuses than UAW workers average at domestic plants.

Yet the UAW continues to try. It attempted to organize the workers at the Subaru plant in Lafayette at least three times. The result? Nada, nothing. The plant will be producing Camrys (pictured) in a joint venture with Toyota in April.

Our take? The strength of the UAW has ebbed substantially. In 1979 the union had a membership of 1.5 million. By 2005 it had plunged to 600,000. Unless the transplants do something real stupid like slashing wages in half or eliminating medical benefits, we see union membership continue to dwindle.

That is one thing I give the Japanese companies credit for - they treat their employees well without having to be forces. Unfortunately, I don't have the same faith in American manufacturing. Even here in UAW-land, non-union manufacturing wages and benefits aren't much better than fast food or retail - $7-8/hr, expensive employee share of insurance costs, no sick days or paid vacation. That's why the union still enjoys pretty widespread support here, IMO; no one really wants to see the lineworker at GM scraping by on $15K/year while the CEO makes $15 million.

 

[Colleen27]

Sure plenty of companies provide heath care.
But you forgetting the American auto companies are paying health care and Toyota does not.

Therefore Toyota can price their cars far lower than the American auto companies can compete with.

JMHO

Toyota does provide health care for their American employees. In fact, their benefit package is very good. But only a small percentage of their workforce is located here. They employ about 30,000 people in the United States; the rest of their workforce is located in nations with nationalized health care. GM has 3 times that number of American employees to insure. Even if they offered identical plans, that's an extra 720 million dollars per year that GM is paying (based on an average plan cost of 12K; in reality that number is likely much higher because both Toyota and GM offer above-average insurance plans).

ETA: Of course, that is only a drop in the bucket of the differences in cost of labor. GM's biggest drag right now is legacy costs; pensions and health care benefits for retirees. Toyota doesn't have to worry about that at all, because most of their workforce will be covered by national health care in retirement. They don't offer retiree benefits to their American workforce. Medicare (the taxpayers) will pick up those costs. Japan also has a national retirement plan and while companies do provide some supplement to that, it is as a lump-sum rather than a fixed monthly payment, so pension costs are not as big an issue for the Japanese automakers as they are for the Big 3.

 

[leahjade]

Just read that the average worker at the US Honda plant makes $24 an hour -not bad for someone with just a high school diploma. So I say goodbye to the BIG 3 unions that destroyed the auto industry in this country. I'd much rather buy a Honda or Toyota anyway!

 

[fkj2]

ETA: Of course, that is only a drop in the bucket of the differences in cost of labor. GM's biggest drag right now is legacy costs; pensions and health care benefits for retirees. Toyota doesn't have to worry about that at all, because most of their workforce will be covered by national health care in retirement. They don't offer retiree benefits to their American workforce. Medicare (the taxpayers) will pick up those costs. Japan also has a national retirement plan and while companies do provide some supplement to that, it is as a lump-sum rather than a fixed monthly payment, so pension costs are not as big an issue for the Japanese automakers as they are for the Big 3.

Surely you realize that US autoworkers are covered primarily by Medicare once they reach age 65. So the taxpayer STILL picks up those costs. Plus, many companies end supplemental medical coverage once their retirees reach Medicare eligibility age.

My understanding of GM's pension structure is that those who retire before the age when they can draw their Social Security benefits receive an offset from the company. Once they are eligible to draw SS, they lose the offset, but the end total of draw is the same.

 

[LuvOrlando]

No.

This isn't to say my sympathies are not with the families who will struggle with the fall out.

But, like I said before, its been 20 years since Roger & Me...people had 2 decades to change and they should have made changes.

 

[sunnyday123]

On the news today - all the Big 3 Auto executives took SEPARATE private jets to DC to beg for money from the taxpayers. This just needs to stop - a big NO from me.
Also, were the figures for average worker's pay including benefits - Big 3 is $79 per hour compared to Honda or Toyoto's made in US by US citizens is $49 - duh, could that have something to do with success?

Seriously what were they thinking??? They said it cost an average of $25,000 for each of them to fly in and out of DC. Idiots. And they still are taking the blame for running those companies into the ground with their shoddy products and lack of business management. Their talking about all the workers who will be out of jobs,laid off, as they get off their private jets and into their chaufferred cars. And then take their payout/payoff of millions while Joe worker is loosing his $50k salary.

 

[MeghansMommy]

Add me into the yes category. As someone in the Detroit area (with many of my uncles working for GM, and friends or family almost all tied to the industry) we need this bail out. BUT the union does need to open it's eyes (this said by someone who is a niece of a former UAW negotiator for GM).

At some point the UAW workers need to realize this is no longer the hayday and the days of $90K+ salaries, weeks and weeks of vacation time, and full benefits are over. It pains me to see my cousins who have ungrad and grad engineering degrees loose their jobs in this industry because the companies simply can not afford their payroll with the current UAW contract. I would think having a job at lower pay is better then losing your job and risking your retirement?

I should also say, I am a teacher (and yes, in the union, MEA). The failure of the Michigan economy directly effects me. Less jobs = less taxes and revenue for the state. Less revenue = less funding for schools. For the last few years we've seen little to no increase in school funding and even cuts! There was a story on the news today how a local district is now going to start charging teachers for their "personal" electricity use. Yes, those fridges or microwaves or coffee makers will now cost the teacher $$$ out of pocket. Many teachers already use personal funds to buy supplies for their classrooms. Also the cuts in spending for education lead to cuts in teacher pay as well as elimination of jobs. Elimination of jobs means more students in a classroom.

So think what you may about the big three, but this really does and will effect so many more people then the UAW or the Big 3 CEO's. I have to believe, if the statistics are correct, that Michigan isn't the only state who's educational funding will be impacted!

I'd rather see $25 billion go to the Big 3, then the $750 BILLION to the banks!

I am also in Michigan and everyone in my family is affected by this (I mentioned this in an earlier post). I have to ask - what school district do you teach in? I'm amazed that they are now charging teachers for electricity!

I understand that you may not want to post it publicly, so feel free to PM. I can't believe this is happening!

My sis is also a teacher downstate (north of Detroit) and she's very concerned about the trickle effect. She has seniority (about 60 below her), but she's worried about her pay/benefits being cut.

I have a family member who works for Beaumont. They have taken away two vacation days, but haven't cut wages for general employees. Upper management, however, is taking a pay cut. I'm very impressed by that. I don't know all of the details, but this family member was very thankful that her job wasn't eliminated and all that was taken away was two vacation days.