Debate: Where's the Outcry for HIS Free Speech ?

[septbride2002]

Awww...the joy of high school censorship - which yes is in fact legal. There was a case (and I can't think of it right now and it is driving me crazy) where it was decided by a supreme court that when it comes to the written word the princpal of a school has a right to censor it. Now this case dealt directly with high school newspapers but it also covers yearbooks, and other types of school sponsored events. Therefore the princpal being able to censor the girls poetry is completely within the law.

However - firing the teacher over it and holding his credentials is not. And demanding the girl destroy her poetry, holding the Mom resonsible, and suspending the girl are also not.

The principal sounds like a wacko if you ask me.

The Bill of Rights on the written word stops in the school parking lot.

~Amanda

 

[Doug123]

Is there a source on this story other than an editorial? I'd be interested to see how it's being played from a more objective format than an editorial.

 

[Sirius]

Originally posted by septbride2002
Awww...the joy of high school censorship - which yes is in fact legal. There was a case (and I can't think of it right now and it is driving me crazy) where it was decided by a supreme court that when it comes to the written word the princpal of a school has a right to censor it. Now this case dealt directly with high school newspapers but it also covers yearbooks, and other types of school sponsored events. Therefore the princpal being able to censor the girls poetry is completely within the law.

The case you are referring to is Hazelwood vs. Kuhlmeier. The case involved a school newspaper but can be applied to all school media. The court decided that the school can censor the newspaper if it is "reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns." In other words, the school must be able to prove that it has a reasonable educational justification for its censorship. Because this was an extra-curricular activity, Hazelwood would not apply and therefore the Prinicipals censorship violates the 1st amendment. Hazelwood did not grant limitless power to administrators. If there is no valid educational purpose to the censorship then it is still prohibited.

BTW...I think the prinicipal's a wacko too.

 

[JimB.]

Ok, I know this is drifting OT, but since you asked...........................................
www.quebecoislibre.org/020119-5.htm
www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v5n2/homepage.html
www.mndaily.com/daily/1999/02/ 02/editorial_opinions/oo0202/
www.etherzone.com/2002/kali101702.shtml
www.pngusa.net/~mjwrose/rightminded/ political_correctness.htm
www.fff.org/freedom/0692b.asp - 23k - Jun 3, 2004
www.forerunner.com/ forerunner/X0369_P.C.__the_Coming_Cul.html
www.sillysports.com/2000freespeech.htm
home.uchicago.edu/~sadavis1/freespeech.html
www.telusplanet.net/public/fellis/SACPA.html
www.themarksman.com/pc.html
www.townhall.com/columnists/johnleo/jl20040412.shtml
www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ _ftcom-political_correctness.htm - 19k
dailybeacon.utk.edu/issues/v84/n4/op-carson.4v.html
www.sptimes.com/2004/02/08/Columns/ On_campus__free_speec.shtml
wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/97/63/03_3.html
www.citybeat.com/1999-07-22/statehouse.shtml

and there are 27,900 entries on Google for "political correctness" +"free speech".

No doubt at least 1 or 2 duplications in there however...........

 

[meandtheguys]

be careful what you ask for...

 

[septbride2002]

The case you are referring to is Hazelwood vs. Kuhlmeier. The case involved a school newspaper but can be applied to all school media. The court decided that the school can censor the newspaper if it is "reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns." In other words, the school must be able to prove that it has a reasonable educational justification for its censorship. Because this was an extra-curricular activity, Hazelwood would not apply and therefore the Prinicipals censorship violates the 1st amendment. Hazelwood did not grant limitless power to administrators. If there is no valid educational purpose to the censorship then it is still prohibited.

Since the group was using the school's closed-circuit television I think Hazelwood would apply here.

"reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns" is to open. Trust me. I was the editor of our high school newspaper and we wanted to run stories about the school board elections - our principal pulled it because it was to political - um hello! The school board elections are about the school - how can we not write about it? His answer was to focus on the choir activities. Basically he was afraid we would offend a soon to be elected school board member and therefore put his job at risk. There was nothing we could do.

~Amanda

 

[ripleysmom]

One would hope that the parents of the children affected by (what I consider to be) the unreasonable actions of the Principal intend to attend to the next Board of Ed meeting and make their unhappiness with his actions known.

 

[septbride2002]

The Court's opinion mentions three different criteria that it might look to for determining if a publication is school-sponsored and thus covered by the Hazelwood decision: 1) Is it supervised by a faculty member? 2) Was the publication designed to impart particular knowledge or skills to student participants or audiences? and 3) Does the publication use the school's name or resources?10 The first two criteria seem to be the most important. Under the second criteria, a publication that is an extracurricular activity rather than part of a class sounds as if it could still be covered by Hazelwood. But in two federal court cases, judges have said that extracurricular publications may be beyond Hazelwood 's reach.

I think that part 1 and 2 apply for this.

The Court gave several examples in its decision of what might be censorable: material that is "ungrammatical, poorly written, inadequately researched, biased or prejudiced, vulgar or profane, or unsuitable for immature audiences." Potentially sensitive topics, such as "the existence of Santa Claus in an elementary school setting," "the particulars of teenage sexual activity in a high school setting," "speech that might reasonably be perceived to advocate drug or alcohol use, irresponsible sex, or conduct otherwise inconsistent with the 'shared values of a civilized social order'" may also be censored. In addition, the Court said school officials can censor material that would "associate the school with anything other than neutrality on matters of political controversy."18

Again I think the principal may get away with the actions since the poem assocate the school with anything other than neutrality on matters of political controversy.

found at http://www.splc.org/legalresearch.asp?id=4

 

[dmadman43]

So, lemme see if I understand. A random principle at a random high school loses his mind and implements his verison of censorship and we are then to conclude this is where the country is going and Bush is behind this because he doesn't come out against it? You do realize how many government and private high schools there are in this countyr, right?

 

[Sirius]

Originally posted by septbride2002
Since the group was using the school's closed-circuit television I think Hazelwood would apply here.

"reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns" is to open. Trust me. I was the editor of our high school newspaper and we wanted to run stories about the school board elections - our principal pulled it because it was to political - um hello! The school board elections are about the school - how can we not write about it? His answer was to focus on the choir activities. Basically he was afraid we would offend a soon to be elected school board member and therefore put his job at risk. There was nothing we could do.

~Amanda

I teach journalism and I am the advisor for our schools newspaper, yearbook, and literary magazine. The use of the school's CCTV would fall under "public forum." Anyone wishing to read a poem was able to do so; it was not restricted to one side of the issue. (If the school allows someone to use the CCTV to present extra-curricular activites, it must allow everyone. Hazelwood does not cover "public forums." In other words, a prinicipal could not tell you if you could run an op/ed or a letter to the editor as these fall under the umbrella of the public forum. Hazelwood would also not apply because this was completed as an extra-curricular activity and no grades were involved.

As for covering the school board elections. I would have insisted that we run the story. The prinicipal overstepped his bounds on that one.

 

[richiebaseball]

I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt that the outrage would be the same if the poem included something like,

"This is the land of the free. You drive by a car whose bumper screams God bless America. Well, you can scratch out the B and make it Godless because God left this country a long time ago... ."

Anyway, here's the poem. Enjoy.

REVOLUTION X

Bush said no child would be left behind
And yet kids from inner-city schools
Work on Central Avenue
Jingling cans that read
Please sir, may I have some more?
They hand out diplomas like toilet paper
And lower school standards
Because
Underpaid, unrespected teachers
Are afraid of losing their jobs
Funded by the standardized tests
That shows our competency
When I'm in detox.
This is the Land of the Free ...
Where the statute of limitations for rape is only five damn years!
And immigrants can't run for President.
Where Muslims are hunted because
Some suicidal men decided they didn't like
Our arrogant bid for modern imperialism.
This is the Land of the Free ...
You drive by a car whose
Bumper screams
God bless America!
Well, you can scratch out the B
And make it Godless
Because God left this country a long time ago.
The founding fathers made this nation
On a dream and now
Freedom of Speech
Lets Nazis burn crosses, but
Calls police to
Gay pride parades.
We somehow
Can afford war with Iraq
But we can't afford to pay the teachers
Who educate the young who hold the guns
Against the "Axis of Evil"
Land of the Free ...
This is the land
If you're politically assertive
They call you a traitor and
Damn you to ostracism.
Say good-bye to Johnny Walker Lindh
And his family.
Bye Bye.
American Pie.
So maybe
My ideas about this nation
Don't resolve around perfection
But at least I know
Education is more important
Than money.
Land of the Free . . .
If this was utopia
We'd have to see each other naked
Before we got married
But instead, we see each other naked all the time
Because the government has my social security number
And the name of my dog!
And then we make babies,
But don't worry, they won't be left behind
And they grow up saying
God bless America!
But they don't know who Bush is
Because they never learned the Presidents.
And they will ride the ship Amistad
To our dreamland shores
Bearing the same shackles as us.
I'm here to say that
Generation X
Is pissed and we are taking over,
Ripping down the American illusion of perfection
We are the future generation
I have my qualifications
I know it looks like Angel Soft paper,
But don't worry
It's a diploma
Do I look qualified?
You can take our toilet paper,
But you can't take our Revolution.

 

[Sirius]

That's it? That's what the principal is so upset over?

He's a schmuck who disagreed with what it said. If he'd had ignored it no one would remember it today. He, of course, has the right to voice his opinion, but his actions are indefensible. What he did flew in the face of everything this country stands for.

As long as I don't write about the government, religion, politics, and other institutions, I am free to print anything. - Beaumarchais

I hope the teacher gets everything he's asking for.

 

[faithinkarma]

richiebaseball, You just gave me a serious case of nostalgia for the 60s.

 

[jrydberg]

Actually, no, I'm not being hypocritical, because I don't actually consider the other issue to be about free speech (more about disrupting a school activity).

A subtle difference at best. You're waiting to hear the message (and whether or not you agree with it) before you deem it a free speech issue.

I wasn't accusing anyone in particular, by the way......

I believe, if you look at the post you made, it does specifically accuse those who were on the other thread claiming free speech.

Not that I'll lose sleep over it, but you were, in my view, specifically accusing certain people and then, ironically, engaging in the same behavior you rail against. Just seemed very... odd.

 

[emmagata]

I think the principal stepped way out of line and HE'S the one that should be fired.


Sounds like she has issues and maybe just a *little* misguided and she probably didn't get that way without help.

But I've noticed a trend in these politically charged days.

The minority party seems to be coming unglued and full outrage and hate.

Has it always been this way with the minority party?

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by wvrevy


Oh...wait...you weren't serious were you ? THIS president come out for someone else's right to their opinion ?

Yeah...You definitely don't want to be holding your breath on that one

Oh, and Esmerelda...This wasn't a class, it was a club the kids started, not run by the teacher. So far as I know, there's no rule that says that "both sides" have to be given, or any such thing...otherwise, how could groups like the "Young Republicans" and "Young Democrats" exist ?

Okay. No clubs don't have to show both sides. Classrooms do. As long as the teacher was not preaching one side to his classroom, then there is NO reason he should have been fired.

I can't belive they actually want this kid to DESTROY her work. That is terrible.

 

[N.Bailey]

If I was her mother, I would absolutely be destroying her work! However, even after reading the "poem", can you label anything you want poetry (I guess you can), I still say the principle was out of line on all counts.

 

[HappyGramma]

What a shame that the rights that our armed forces are fighting to establish for the people of Iraq are being denied to citizens right here at home.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by HappyGramma
What a shame that the rights that our armed forces are fighting to establish for the people of Iraq are being denied to citizens right here at home.

What govt entity is denying anyone their rights to free speech? The example cited is a random incident. Hardly representitive of any sort of trend.

 

[sunni]

The teacher shouldn't have lost his job and the principal is a *******. I believe in her right to free speech the same as I believe the boy with the t-shirt has a right to free speech. I don't have to like what they say.