DEBATE: When does the "Disney Experience" cease to exist?

I agree wholeheartedly that Disney should be adding more E-ticket rides.
E-ticket, A ticket, that's not the point. I'm sure the Head will let us know if he feels differently, but its not the "ticket level" of the attraction that is in question. I know I'm not calling for E-ticket only additions.

(That's not to say that whether there should be more e-tickets is not a valid question, only that its not the point in this discussion)

The point is that Aladdin is an example of a half-way decent result coming from a severly flawed process.

I don't think that rides like Aladdin should represent the majority of WDW ride installations.
It doesn't. Its probably on the high-end.

But look at what we have coming up - M:S and a Spain pavillion in Epcot,
I have high hopes for M:S, but just being an E-ticket doesn't make it good.

Remember, adding new attractions is only part of what we expect from Disney. We also expect certain things from those attractions, like quality, story-telling, SHOW, and an overall fit with the parks philosophy of family entertainment.

Making a judgement about M:S in any direction woudl be premature. My only real criticism at this point is that it will be another attraction with a height requirement. It seems that all new MAJOR attractions at Disney are coming with height requirements these days (unless its a 3D movie...)

Spain is still a rumor, unless I missed something (certainly possible).

...rumors about Forbidden Mountain in AK that are getting stronger,
There's been ebb and flow on this one for quite some time. Maybe its going to happen, but again there much more to it than just building a ride.
...more entertainment offerings,
Seriously, where? Beauty and the Beast added two days, and Hunchback lost five days. I know the tests are going on at MK, but as of yesterday, no hours have been extended, or shows added beyond either this or next week. There are more characters, which is nice, but part of that comes from CC going away...
...all on the heals of things like RnR, which wasn't added all that long ago, relatively speaking.
Considering there are four parks on property, I'd say this is quite a long time in theme park years...

I can understand people losing patience, but in time things will balance. A couple of years from now major E-tickets will represent 67% of installations. A couple of years after that maybe the C's are back to 67% - ebb and flow, ebb and flow...................
How on Earth can you possibly accept this as a foregone conclusion? Generally speaking, trend analysis works well with entire economies, and even industries. But individual companies buck that trend in both directions all the time. If you think Disney is a well-managed company who has the appropriate philosophy regarding their parks, then sure, you probably think we will automatically see an upturn soon. But is that really what you think?
 
I presume you are in car 3 as well?
I like to think of myself as the hood ornament on Car 3*. Although the 'Baron occasionally puts me on the roof and makes me yell "I'm a si-reen! I'm a si-reen!"

So back to your analogy: with Test Track, they gave us a new five course meal, it just didn’t taste very good to me.
I could take the easy way out and just agree with you, but I'd rather redefine the terms, which means I must now disagree with you, but on the front end of the sentence (well, on both ends, really, but the fact that I enjoy riding Test Track shouldn't make a difference in this conversation).

I've taken it upon myself to decide that the definitions of ride tickets should not be anchored at levels acheived thirty years ago.

If they put up Space Mountain today, it would not rate an E ticket, it would get a C or D at best. Cough *Rock 'n' Roller Coaster* cough.

I say the reason you didn't think Test Track tasted right is because it isn't right. I don't think Test Track scores highly enough on several scales to be considered an E ticket, an example of the very best Disney can do. It might arguably be just as good as the best they could do decades ago, but that's not good enough, now.

-WFH

* - technically, after November 4th, I'll be on Car 4. For the first time since I've been paying for my own vacations, I don't have a next WDW trip planned.
 
M. Head:

Been reading your posts a long time, and I've really gotten to enjoy the new and improved head. Still biting, but much funnier, and definitely more of a debater.

These two lines, good sir, are classics:

I think Aladdin is the Disney ride version of Fast Food. Disney built its reputation with rides like Pirates, the Disney ride version of a multi-course meal. Particularly now that Disney is struggling, I think it's a good idea to go "back to basics," which means, in this analogy, making the full course meals upon which the brand was built.

Right. Nothing wrong with fast food. We love the Pirate & the Parrot. But the question is, and one M. Scoop answers in the negative it seems from his colloquy with M. Matt, is could they have done better? Is Dumbo Spitting Sideways the best they could have gotten? I don't think so.

Remember that Baron & I came out publicly when it opened and said *any* addition is welcomed. I still mean that. Not replacements (they are graded harded), but *any* addition is welcome, but that doesn't mean it is applauded.

Hey, one last thing. Stick around in Car # 3. The upcoming sights over the next year just watching what will happen in Cali might end up as a D or E* ticket ride in and of itself. Call it the "Haunted TDA," with 999 inhabitants who would scare the beegeezus out of any self-respecting Disney nut.
 
Although the 'Baron occasionally puts me on the roof and makes me yell "I'm a si-reen! I'm a si-reen!"
I thought you volunteered!! :crazy:

But only when the Pirate, Scoop and Mr. Kidds are double teaming!! (Yes, it takes all three to make a double!!)
 

Mr. Matt - let me clarify a few things. No big disagreements (ok, maybe one or two ;)), but a few clarificatiosn nonetheless.
E-ticket, A ticket, that's not the point.
Once again, I agree. Take away the x-ticket definition. I agree that Disney needs to add rides at every level. Blockbusters down to kiddie rides - not just the multi-course gourmet meals like Pirates (we won't call it an E-ticket if you don't want to) like the chilly one has suggested.
The point is that Aladdin is an example of a half-way decent result coming from a severly flawed process.
Objection, your honor. Badgering the witness, calls for speculation. You see, just because you keep saying it is half-way anything doesn't change the fact that it hits the target for the intended audience, an audience just as deserving of a new addition than anyone else. Furthermore, we have no evidence regardingintent in the planning and design.
It doesn't. Its probably on the high-end. (Regarding % of new installations)
Hey, someone else threw out the 67%, which I do believe would represent a majority.
I have high hopes for M:S, but just being an E-ticket doesn't make it good.
Once again, agreed. I was not making any determinations about quality. I was just pointing out that the multi-course meals, blockbusters, big ticket rides, E-tickets, whatever you want to call them, are being cooked up by the chef as we speak. That will alter that 67% figure in due time.
If you think Disney is a well-managed company who has the appropriate philosophy regarding their parks, then sure, you probably think we will automatically see an upturn soon. But is that really what you think?
Even a poorly managed company realizes at some point that they are poorly managed. Changes will come about in time, but you are correct in that I have no proof. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
(Yes, it takes all three to make a double!!)
Ouch :rolleyes: - and I was starting to enjoy the silence of the Baron ;). I guess this is the best one can do when they have no comeback on content :p.
 
Objection, your honor. Badgering the witness, calls for speculation. You see, just because you keep saying it is half-way anything doesn't change the fact that it hits the target for the intended audience, an audience just as deserving of a new addition than anyone else.
Objection, your honor! Call for a conclusion!! We have a problem with the witness’s expertise, credibility and bias. How do we know that that this does indeed ‘hit’ the target as well as anything else could have, and how do we know that the audience was just as deserving? There have been many, with the same level of expertise, that have testified that this was a useless addition. Still others contended that it was indeed welcome, but falls very, very short of the ‘target’. I move the entire section be struck and the jury ordered to disregard!

Even a poorly managed company realizes at some point that they are poorly managed. Changes will come about in time
Mr. Kidds. I really like talking to you, although sometimes the tongue in cheek gets in the way! This is why I gave you all that above stuff to have fun with. But I’d really like to get serious for a moment.

Please!! Give me a clue!! I’m damn near begging!! Cause I really want to know!! What in the world leads you to believe that this company will even realize they are poorly managed? And even more important, what gives you that ‘warm and fuzzy’ that it will ever turn around?

That’ll do for a start. But there is a final question for you to ponder. If Walt were a 10 and Ei$ner a zero (hey! I believe in type casting ;)) and this turn around does happen, what number will come up on the ‘providing magic’ chart?

Thanks!


PS: My computer crashed over the week-end!! I couldn’t even view what was going on! So forgive me if the typing is a little shaky. I was going through DIS withdrawals!!
 
I was just pointing out that the multi-course meals, blockbusters, big ticket rides, E-tickets, whatever you want to call them, are being cooked up by the chef as we speak.
We're still missing on this one. We don't yet KNOW if these things being cooked up are really the multi-course meals. We know Space will be a different ride, and its got a pretty big amount of money thrown at it, but that doesn't mean its going to be what we expect from Disney. DR cost more than Aladdin, has more rides, etc, but it doesn't really come any closer to hitting the mark.

Somebody else pointed out that really, any ADDITION is welcome to at least a certain extent. In my book, even DR is better than nothing. But just making additions, even expensive ones, is not enough. I see TT and RnRC, and I see that they are decent efforts in my book. But they aren't of the same quality as ToT and Splash. Question is, is that a trend? Will M:S continue downward? I hope not, but the only reason I can really see to believe it will be of ToT and Splash quality is that it is sponsored, and paid for by someone else. It seems that the sponsors are more concerned than Disney is about an attraction's affect on the audience. (example: JIYI is redone at the behest of Kodak, while Superstar Limo is just shut down).

Even a poorly managed company realizes at some point that they are poorly managed.
Again, not a foregone conclusion. If it were, every management team would turn things around before getting the axe, before asset sell-offs are required, before the company is stripped of its creative talent, and before complete break-ups and sell-offs continue.
 
example: JIYI is redone at the behest of Kodak
OK, you got me started on the Figment ride... I will keep it short and sweet. SUBJECTIVELY It should never have been changed in the first place. SUBJECTIVELY I think that they realized it was a big mistake. OBJECTIVELY Kodak paid for it. SUBJECTIVELY I will wait till next week to judge for myself if it was a downgrade from the original ride. Again, SUBJECTIVELY I don't think that they should have messed with it, and they knew how many complaints that they have already received. SUBJECTIVELY They knew that they had to spend (Kodak’s) money.

Even a poorly managed company realizes at some point that they are poorly managed.
I hear a name...the name is ENRON...They might have realized that they were mismanaged too, at some level. I don't mean to compare the two companies, but where the point of realization is and what is will be done about it. Finally, the depressing point; what can we do about it when it hits.

PS: My computer crashed over the week-end!! I couldn’t even view what was going on! So forgive me if the typing is a little shaky. I was going through DIS withdrawals!!
Poor Baron, I hope you had a good backup of your data!!!


Objection, your honor! Call for a conclusion!!
Isn't it supposed to be a Directed Verdict? I am not up on my Legalese. ;)

P.S. I feel a little like Jiminy Cricket with my shiny new Gold Badge...
 
Good to have you back..............
How do we know that that this does indeed ‘hit’ the target as well as anything else could have
Who said anything about 'as well as anything else'? Sure, Disney could have done other things that might have even been *gasp* better. But that is beside the point. How do we know it hit the target? I can only base my conclusions on my direct observations. First hand knowledge of the fact that young kids really enjoy the ride. They get excited about it. Go and watch. I bet there are car 3ers out there with young kids that enjoy this ride very much, unless they tell little Johnny "you can't like this ride, it doesn't fit, it is platic, it is loud, it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!".
Mr. Kidds. I really like talking to you, although sometimes the tongue in cheek gets in the way!
Not sure where you feel tongue was inserted in cheek, but it wasn't this............
Even a poorly managed company realizes at some point that they are poorly managed. Changes will come about in time
What leads me to believe that? Well, nothing in writing, except maybe some handwriting on the wall. Listen, when your stock is in the toilet as it is now, things will eventually change. I can't say how long it will take, but come on - Disney is not a company on the verge of bankruptcy. They have been mismanaged, and the world is slowly starting to realize that. That will effect change. Small things are happening, but sometimes you need to take baby steps. Enron does not apply. Let's not forget that they were cooking the books for who knows how long. They were perpetrating illegal activities. That is not what Disney is doing. If you dig out the financials, the true fianancials and not the cooked ones, Disney is a much stronger company than Enron was. Disney will survive their long term mismanagement and recent economic challenges because they simply have too many strong assets that need to be recapitalized on. Ei$ner did it in the 80's, and someone will do it in the 00's. Proof - I have none. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Again, not a foregone conclusion. If it were, every management team would turn things around before getting the axe, before asset sell-offs are required, before the company is stripped of its creative talent, and before complete break-ups and sell-offs continue.
Sometimes these things have to happen before people get their heads out of their..............:eek:.
But there is a final question for you to ponder. If Walt were a 10 and Ei$ner a zero (hey! I believe in type casting ) and this turn around does happen, what number will come up on the ‘providing magic’ chart?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Walt was a 10 at providing magic. The Eisner team, at varying points during ME's tenure has ranged from an 8 (mid to late 80's) to a .5 (today). When things turn we will slowly climb out of the .5 basement, but there is no reason to believe that the company can't return to a 9 (and only 9 because no one will ever be as good as Walt).

You can call me a fool if you like, but months ago some of us said 'bide your time, EE will return, hours will come back, etc.' You all asked the same question - 'how can you possibly believe that?'. Well, guess what, EE is back, MK hours are up a little, there are fireworks every night in Nov/Dec. It is a start. Who looks foolish now?
 
My Dear Mr. Kidds,
I only used the Enron example because it illustrates the Management doesn't have to recognize the problems.
 
Originally posted by ohanafamily
My Dear Mr. Kidds,
I only used the Enron example because it illustrates the Management doesn't have to recognize the problems.
Fair enough. However, it seems to me one of two things eventually has to happen, especially in companies as large and well structured as Disney and Enron. One would be to recognize the problem and take corrective action. Another would be to recognize the problem and take illegal action to hide it. Enron management recognized the problem, but management was corrupt. Do you believe the same can be said of Disney?
 
In all seriousness,I feel that they hide a lot from us.

as an example, in my recent crusade about the Disney Store in Dallas loosing their Gallery Items. I tried to find sales figures for this type of item in the annual reports and from many people (CMs). The information is "Restricted Access". I could not even get the current number of Disney Stores in the US, let alone international. The Annual reports are pretty, and they have a lot of fluff that looks like information, but there isn't that much meat in it.

SUBJECTIVELY I think that there is a lot that they are hiding from us stock-holders.
:bounce:
 
I'm surprised that there could be so much debate about the Aladdin ride. I'm not going to go on and on about it, but I have to put in my two cents. I just saw again it on Sunday.

I've been trying to think of the most adequate word to describe this ride.


In a word, it is a MONSTROSITY!

The fact that little children like it, is not argument enough for it's existence at the Magic Kingdom.
Little children LOVE empty cardboard boxes too!
:p
 
I like to think of myself as the hood ornament on Car 3*. Although the 'Baron occasionally puts me on the roof and makes me yell "I'm a si-reen! I'm a si-reen!"

Mr. Frozen Head,

As long as you guys let me ride along in car 3, you can be the hood ornament. Kind of like the Deathmobile in Animal House, but colder.

I've taken it upon myself to decide that the definitions of ride tickets should not be anchored at levels acheived thirty years ago.

Hmmmm… A sliding A – E scale for attractions over time. I guess I’ll have to go along with that. It seems to me that over time, some attractions were actually downgraded while the old ticket system was still in use. I can’t remember any specific examples right now, but I’m pretty sure that some attractions changed ratings. Since Disney was willing to slide that scale themselves, I agree that it must be accepted. You are changing my Disney perceptions by the day!

One more point that I have been thinking about regarding new E tickets: Since imagineering just got done with TDS, and the OLC just paid for a ton of R&D on new attractions, wouldn’t it make sense to wait a year or 2, see what works, and then implement those designs in the domestic parks? That’s a great way to minimize costs and still deliver a good product. In fact, I think that the OLC got the best that Imagineering had to offer over the last several years, and the domestic parks got the rest.

Are you really ready for car 4? I made a joke about that in an earlier post, but I really think that car 4 people won’t be posting or even lurking on these boards. What’s the point? They will be playing golf and riding their bikes and fishing. And of course complaining that the golf course isn’t maintained as well as in the past…

RAMMING SPEED!!!!!!
 
ohanafamily- I never rode the original Imagination ride, but have to believe it was great based on all of the comments. I did ride the first re-do, and the latest re-do.

I have no idea why it was changed the first time, but was more referring to the second change. (Yes, its better than the "non-Figment" version).

Listen, when your stock is in the toilet as it is now, things will eventually change.
But it doesn't always change. Disney's current problems are significant, but they aren't significant enough to mandate change, at least with the current board makeup. Eisner is so firmly entrenched, that it appears its going to take very significant negative events to bring about any changes.

And even at that point, who knows what direction things will move in...

I'm not saying doom and gloom is the only possibility, only that it is a very real possibility.

I do definitely agree that Enron is not really a good comparison. I'm sure Disney does its share of corporate monkey business, but we have no proof that there is criminal levels of deception going on. That's not to say its not a possibility, but its no more a possibility with Disney than with hundreds of other companies.

Well, guess what, EE is back, MK hours are up a little, there are fireworks every night in Nov/Dec. It is a start. Who looks foolish now?
I know EE is back, but are you sure about the rest? For MK, based on what is currently posted at Disney.com, and historical hours from laughingplace.com, total Nov '00 hours were 328, '01 was 308, and '02 is 296.

Also, according to Disney.com, until Thanksgiving week, Fantasy in the Sky is only on Saturdays and Tuesdays. Spectro is Saturdays only. I believe Laughingplace shows Fantasy being peformed every night last November.

Nothing has been extended beyond this week's tests at MK.

Or did I miss something (certainly a possibility), and Disney.com hasn't been updated?
 
I know EE is back, but are you sure about the rest? For MK, based on what is currently posted at Disney.com, and historical hours from laughingplace.com, total Nov '00 hours were 328, '01 was 308, and '02 is 296.
It is a bit of a moving target. As for hours, we may only get a few more here or there, and they are less than years past. However, remember those baby steps. I think things will improve, but I am not about to give a time frame. As for fireworks, Disney.com shows FITS every night in December - that is certainly different from last year.
I'm not saying doom and gloom is the only possibility, only that it is a very real possibility.
Maybe it is a real possibility, but I speculate that it would be more so in the short term. (what is short term? I really don't know. 6 months, 12 month, a year, till Eisner leaves - I don't know). However, longer term I think that gloom and doom would be replaced with good. Maybe it would start slow, but we'll get there. Again, only the crystal ball on my desk says so.

Answer me this. Forget slippery slopes and abandoned philosophies. How long would you say that Disney has been in a true gloom and doom state? You know, decreased attendance, reduced hours, shuttered hotels, etc. I'd say maybe two years. Much of that is the result of outside influences. Granted, Disney mistakes have compounded the effects of those outside influences. Lets say the economy rebounds in a year, two years, whenever. The stock market is up and steadily rising. People are travelling again. Things are a more stable. You see, all of that will happen. History tells us that. So, when all of that happens, and Disney attendance is setting new records and hotels are full, do you think we will still have the Disney gloom and doom that we do now? It is so easy to focus on the past several years. It is very easy to become jaded, pessimistic, and negative. However, if you take a reasonable big picture look, it is hard to conclude that things will never change. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Now, we will never get MHB back, but that is hardly the gloom and doom you speak of, is it?
 
November has 14 fewer showings of FitS scheduled in '02 than '01. December has 7 more.

November hours:

'00 - 328
'01 - 308 (-6.1%)
'02 - 296 (-3.9%)

December hours:

'00 - 359
'01 - 343 (-4.5%)
'02 - 328 (-4.4%)

In both months, except for the holiday weeks, closing times are 6pm every day except Saturday, which is 8pm. How much earlier can they close?

Hours continue to shrink.

Entertainment is being putzed around with, but no real increase.

Admittedly, schedules could be changed, but until they are, we have to go with what they are telling us.

The economy may not be going full bore right now, but its in better shape than it was a year ago. Same with tourism. Yet Disney's offerings are a wash at best when compared to a year ago.



With regard to your question, of course, when the economy improves, attendance and bookings will be positively impacted. That's a given. Its the same reason why so many dot.com companies were able to stay in business during the boom of the late 90's. When times are good, you almost have to try to screw up in order to fail.

But, when times are lean, we get "shake-outs". Weaknesses are exposed. The weak disappear, the mediocre survive, and the strong thrive (within the given economic limits), and position themselves to take full advantage of the rebound.

Disney claims to be in the strong group. But about the only thing that are legitimately doing that qualifies as a strong move is cutting fat. The problem is, they are cutting some of the core benefits of their guest experience as well. The theme parks have an extremely strong foundation, but the poor management is leaving them in a less than optimal position when the rebound occurs.

So if nothing changes, will Disney benefit from an improved economy? Sure. But they won't benefit as much as they could have, and it won't change the fact that they do not understand the root of their long term appeal.

Strong economic times will make these factors less obvious, but they are still there.

Of course, the longer it takes for us to find the rebound, the more exposed Disney becomes. Remember, most experts said we should be in full recovery mode by Summer of this year. But its been sluggish, and there are still some significant unknowns, like terrorism, Iraq, and the West Coast port labor issue staring us in the face. If any of those rears an ugly head before we get the economy on auto-pilot, things could get hairy again...
 
Ok- you at least confirmed the 2 years gloom and doom. Beyond that you lost me.
So if nothing changes
I take this to mean that you assume that, even when better economic times bring increased attendance and occupancy, we will always have the doom and gloom of the last 2 years, that nothing will change and we will never get the hours and entertainment of the 90's back. Is that what you are saying? I happen to think things will change, that when the economy turns and attendance goes up Disney will make changes and we will see the hours and entertainment increase.
 
Sure, Disney could have done other things that might have even been *gasp* better.
Then why didn’t they!?
. First hand knowledge of the fact that young kids really enjoy the ride. They get excited about it. Go and watch.
I forgot who said it, but someone mentioned a box. Come on over to my parent’s house at Christmas some year. You’ll witness that very phenomenon. Thousands of dollars worth of presents and most of the kids are playing in the boxes!! Making tunnels, forts, house, etc. It is really amazing. So, maybe, given your Disney proving ground and measuring stick for what hits the ‘Disney’ mark, we should put a couple of cardboard boxes in the middle of the walkway and call it an attraction. Is that it?

You can call me a fool if you like
OK!! ;)


Wedway100,
As long as you guys let me ride along in car 3, you can be the hood ornament. Kind of like the Deathmobile in Animal House, but colder.
WELCOME!! Of course you can ride in car #3!! The more the merrier! Check your rose-colored-glasses at the door and only use them when you visit WDW!! (That’s what I do!! ;))
Since Disney was willing to slide that scale themselves, I agree that it must be accepted. You are changing my Disney perceptions by the day!
Yeah! Mine too! Pretty neat place, isn’t it?

How long would you say that Disney has been in a true gloom and doom state? You know, decreased attendance, reduced hours, shuttered hotels, etc. I'd say maybe two years. Much of that is the result of outside influences.
You can’t be serious! I’m floored! These things you mentioned are merely the outward symptoms of a disease that’s been cooking for quite some time now!

Imagine you have a car. It is a good car. Brand new. And you drive it out of the showroom and do NOTHING to it (except fill it up when it’s empty) for the next ten years. Then one day your car overheats. So you have that problem fixed. A week later you look out the rear view mirror and finally admit to yourself that the blue smoke screen you’re laying down really shouldn’t be there. A month later you find that those squeaking breaks don’t work at all now, but it really doesn’t matter because just before the big accident the transmission drops to the street and you’re not going anywhere anyway!! When you get home you say to your wife, “Boy! Ran real good up till a month ago!!”
Much of that is the result of outside influences.
It only made the end come a little quicker. But it would have come anyway!!
So if nothing changes, will Disney benefit from an improved economy? Sure. But they won't benefit as much as they could have, and it won't change the fact that they do not understand the root of their long term appeal.
That, my friend Matt, is the root of the problem. They have forgotten what brought them to the dance in the first place. They have forgotten what their product really is!
I happen to think things will change, that when the economy turns and attendance goes up Disney will make changes and we will see the hours and entertainment increase.
Mr. Kidds! Those things you talk about are outward symptoms only. Nothing! NOTHING will change the mindset of those in control! They have been on this path since the beginning. And they will do NOTHING more than what is minimally required to keep them economically viable. NOTHING!! And that's no different from any other company in the world. May as well become a Universal fan!

That's NOT what endeared me to this unique company years ago. Sadly, they are no longer 'unique'. :(
 
Baron,

We hit 11 pages... Oh My.

I have a question for you, have you ever met Ei$$ner? you seem to ha...disrespect him so much! Is there a personal vendetta. Can you admit he has done something right? Are you preparing the weaponry on car 3 for a vicious assault on the world (Like the Deathmobile in Animal House)

Just curious.

I'll be at WDW in a couple of days for a week... No Doom or Gloom!
I'll be in the front seat of car 1 and not looking behind me!!!!!!!!!!!!
1:bounce: 2:Pinkbounc 3:jester: 4:earseek:
 












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