DEBATE: Maintaining the Walt Standard

[Luv2Roam]

Just to put Walt's philosophy in the simplist of terms of I think it was just to follow the Golden Rule.

"...Walt would have built EPCOT or died trying."
Maybe he did.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Gentleman and gentleladies, I believe in my heart of hearts that Walt would have loved to one day see his dream of E.P.C.O.T. come to life

Then why bring up all that other nonsense which is conjecture at best and may not be anything but a wild a** guess on your part. The question was “What would WALT do?" It was NOT, “What did Walt’s successors do to screw his dream over?”

Now, do some good and tell us your thoughts on the real question. Just what does Scoop think “Walt would do!?” And excise the EPCOT thing. That just muddies the waters and does not address the spirit of the question.

 

[Sandy Fisher]

Sometimes I think it presumptious of me to congratulate you on your well-thought-out posts, but I'll do it anyway.
So often I am thinking along the same lines but just don't have the words to put it "down on paper".
Thanks again for making the point(s) so well.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Sandy Fisher!! Thank you!!

Sometimes I think it presumptuous of me to congratulate you on your well-thought-out posts, but I'll do it anyway.

NO!! Please!!! Keep it coming!! I need the support. And so do the others, in ALL the cars. If you think about it, the only ones we hear from are the ones we disagree with! It’s nice to know that I’m making sense to someone!! Cause I sure ain’t moving Scoop’s world!!

Which brings us to…

Baron, I'm not sure what question you are specifically referring to but with the tone and mood of your last post, you and I better just move along on this one...

Come on Scoop!! I’m trying to be conversational and you’re making it real hard!! All I was saying is that we should forget the EPCOT (city) thing and try to answer what Mr. Kidds asked. Let me point out the salient section to refresh your memory (did I do that right? Like a witness?)

But what exactly would Walt have done? While Walts 'ideals' may have been the basis for everything that WDW was, Walt never managed WDW a day in his life, which sadly ended long before the Orlando dream was realized. Walt built an empire that thrived under his 'standards'. But keep in mind, some of his other actions driven by those 'standards' had him near penniless at times. So, would Walt have changed his 'standards' throughout the years had he been alive to run WDW? Would that have represented a compromising of his 'standards'? Could WDW be all that it has been if all those 'standards' had been strictly adhered to?

Now do remember? So, all I was asking you, was to get off the EPCOT (city) thing and play nice with Mr. Kidds’ question. Cause I really wanted to know.

I put out quite a long piece. I was hoping to see something from you. And every time I saw that you had replied to this thread I was anxious to get to it. Only to have my hopes dashed (OK!! A little hyperbole) to see you were still on that same old EPCOT was a red herring thing.

Scoop, don’t you ever put out a post or a question which can be answered by the general masses, but it’s really only a couple posters you want to know about. Mr. Kidds did that with me this time. YoHo did it recently and even put my name in the title!! I’ve done it to Peter and he has with me. That’s all I was trying to do. Elicit a response from you. But not any response. I wanted to know your take on the question that was raised.

Anyway, though I’m quickly growing indifferent, I’m still curious as to your take of the question at hand. If you feel like it, write it. If you don’t feel like, then don’t write it.

And I hope this answers your PM as well. I was not being dismissive and my attitude was supposed to come off as friendly (which I thought we were) and conversational. I was simply very, very curious to know what YOU, and you in particular, thought about the subject and I wanted to see if you and I agreed on anything. I thought it would be fun to discuss it. Just you and I. Getting down to philosophies. I pretty much know what AV and the Frozen one would say. For that matter Peter and I have been round and round on similar subjects. And I knew Mr. Kidds would answer when he had a chance (I was the one he was asking!!). But it was YOU that I wanted to talk to. Can’t you understand that? DISMISSIVE!!!??? I did everything I could but call your mom and ask if you could come out and play!!!

GEEZE!!! It’s like walking on eggs!!!!! CHILL!!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

I'm baaack............

First of all - scoop and Baron - get along! This is supposed to be fun. You guys are going around too much on too many threads. I hate to seem my friends fighting .

OK - no to dance with you my lord Baron.

But I don’t think you’re asking that. Are you? I think we need to take the EPCOT aspect out of the equation. We need to level the playing field and compare apples to apples. Right? So, my take on you’re question is not, “What would Walt have done if he lived through the years to the present?” but instead, “What would Walt DO, given the same conditions, circumstances and property GOALS (as opposed to company goals), that Ei$ner has had?” Is that more what you had in mind? I will assume, for the purposes of this piece anyway, that it is.

The 'that' you refer to is part of what I was getting at, but your take is a logical follow on. An initial question, however - doe this observation...

Or, what is more likely, (personal belief only) it would have ruined the company to a point that Walt would have realized that he was in the theme park business, like it or not. Some really tough times, and the realization that he couldn’t run Disneyland the way he wanted anymore, might (and I stress “might” because Walt was hardheaded) have lead him pretty much in the direction of the present day WDW.

conflict in any way with any of the things you outline in what Walt would have done? Perhaps if you are saying that only the 'Walts Epcot' issue would have precipitaded these outcomes I could let it go - but the tough times, DL realizations would have been independant of the Epcot issue. Or is what you list more like what Walt would have liked to have done? It appears you agree that strict adherence to the original Walt standards might not have been possible. I guess you are saying that Walt would have done things differently that differed from his original ideas, but still maintained his standards. So lets look at your thoughts on what the man would have done.

I'm with you on Epcot.
I'm with you on S/D.

Your thoughts on theming and integration of hotels is interesting and could have happened. Walt was one to see things that were cutting edge and a future staple of an industry. Same with innovation and 'state of the art' stuff. Just thinking of sound and color integrated into animated shorts - both of which Walt pushed for even though it hurt the Disney Studios financially for some time (remember this - we'll get back to it) makes me believe he would have gone for it - or pushed darn hard.

Now to tip toe around that caste system.

RESORTS WOULD HAVE ONE SET STANDARD AND ONE SET PRICE RANGE. I know this sounds ludicrous, but hear me out. I have thought long and hard about the subject. The logic I use is what I’ve read, heard and seen in the guy named Walt Disney. How he looked at money, business, and most importantly the SHOW! He wasn’t about money. He wasn’t about maximizing profits. And he wasn’t about business. He WAS about quality. In everything he did, quality was the watchword. I firmly believe that he NEVER compromised quality for cost and more importantly for price. If we accept this basic premise, and I see NO reason to doubt it, then this very concept would preclude the existence of the All Stars and the Floridian!!

I just don't know that I agree with what Walt would have accomplished in this regard. You are right - he was not about money, he didn't sacrifice quality - but how far could he take that. Think of all the money he lost on the Mickeys and Silly Symphonies. He kept uping the quality while UA kept the pay below cost. Only though the merchandising of Mickey Mouse (can anyone say Plush?) was the company able to survive that. Granted, much of those losses were really investment in the future as it set a standard - but would the same apply to hotels? I don't think so. Walt was on the forefront and did things before the competition - heck, he did it while the competition was aware and thought he was crazy (an animated feature? - you must be crazy! - Disney's Folly - $8 mil later who was laughing?) Walt could not have pulled off the pay one price hotel scenario. He could not have survived the 'give them Poly quality at a price everyone can afford' thinking. I think he would have done 'less expensive' resorts, but found a way to do them better than the AS and PC. The moderates with a Walt touch would have been a reality IMHO. All deluxe hotels all the time at a working mans price would have been a loss generator, and not the type of investment that his other cutting edge ideas represented. It simply gets back to your earlier thoughts I quoted above.

There would be no Studios and no Animal Kingdom!! Yep! No theme parks trying to play catch up with the joints down the street!! What we would see is something completely and wonderfully different!! Something that no one had thought of. Something that would WOW(!!) us. Thrill us. And at the same time, MAKE A TON OF MONEY!!!!

No Studios or AK - very possible. Something different and WOW - very possible. MAKE A TON OF MONEY!!!. Given Walts record on a lot of things I don't know - at least not if he didn't evolve the way he chose to implement his standards. Joking about paying people with potatoes in the 30's might have been cute - but not in the 70's and beyond.

What do I think Walt would have done. I do think he would have evolved his thinking. Just how I am not sure. Let me educate myself a bit more before I take that on.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Every time I try to get out - - They pull me back in!!

OK, Caste system you want – Caste system you got!!!

Walt could not have pulled off the pay one-price hotel scenario.

I couldn’t disagree more!!

He could not have survived the 'give them Poly quality at a price everyone can afford' thinking.

I really don’t understand why not. That is EXACTLY what he did his entire life! That is the very principle upon which Disneyland was founded. Remember at the time what type of amusement venues were out there. The tunnel of Love ride was the dark ride of the moment. For fifty cents you hopped aboard a boat that ran through rat infested waters with cheap cutouts (usually weather-worn with chipped paint). At Disney, for ninety cents you ‘experienced’ Small World or Pirates!! More expensive? You bet! But was the expense commensurate with the experience and what was common throughout the industry at the time? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

The same concept guided the theme and price of the original resorts that WDW had and the future resorts on the drawing boards. They were the moderates!! Heck, you could even call them “value” for all the theme they gave you (very unique at the time). And there were some ‘industry standards” that Disney did not provide, and many “extras” that comparably price hotels simply didn’t even consider. The plain fact was that they were Disney Resorts. Built, operated and priced according to the Disney standard!!

And it is that Standard that decides whether or not something is Disney. You slap a Disney ® sticker on a Six Flags type roller coaster and that still doesn’t make it Disney. The Designers at WDI could have built it from scratch (not off the shelf) and that still doesn’t make it Disney. Ei$ner could issue a press release saying that this roller coaster is the best Disney ride Disney ever invented and that still doesn’t make it Disney!! You can even move that roller coaster into the middle of the Magic Kingdom and that STILL doesn’t make it a Disney “Attraction”. Why? Because it does not live up to the standard!! Pretty simple isn’t it?

Why, in the whole wide world, do you think that this principle, this very basic philosophical concept, something that Walt lived and breathed his entire live, would not apply to “Disney” resorts? I don’t get it.

I think he would have done 'less expensive' resorts, but found a way to do them better than the AS and PC.

What possible evidence do you have to back that up? What did Walt EVER do, to make you think he would undercut is philosophical “QUALITY” to do something “less expensive”? Did he EVER do that with his short features? Did he EVER do that in his full-length motion pictures? Did he EVER do that in his personal life? Did he EVER do that in Disneyland? And the men who first took over, who lived by the: What Would Walt Want, watchword, did they EVER do that in the building and operation of WDW? Did they EVER do that in the building and operation of EPCOT? Why do you think he would start with the resorts? Again, I don’t get it.

All deluxe hotels all the time at a working mans price would have been a loss generator

Kind of like Pirates or Small World is a loss generator compared to the Coney Island or Riverview ‘Tunnel of Love”, eh?

The moderates with a Walt touch would have been a reality IMHO

Moderates and ‘Walt’s touch’ cannot be in the same sentence. It doesn’t make sense. Moderate prices? YES!!! Of course!! Value? YES!! Definitely!! But you’re saying he’d have lowered his standard for price. In order to capture a market segment. Nah! I don’t see ANYTHING he ever did to back that up. Do you?

 

[DisneyKidds]

Ok Mr. Property Magnate - the short answer to your question.....

What possible evidence do you have to back that up? What did Walt EVER do, to make you think he would undercut is philosophical “QUALITY” to do something “less expensive”? Did he EVER do that with his short features? Did he EVER do that in his full-length motion pictures?

...is yes. The long answer is .... yes - but I will flesh that out as I continue my education on the man who started it all.

As for that short answer, we can first look to his animated features. Perhaps we can even relate them to the WDW hotels he planned and envisioned.

The first animated feature was Snow White. Humor me, and equate Snow White with the Contemporary. Despite the roadblocks thrown up and the $1.5 mil spent with no guaranteed return, Snow White went on to be a landmark, and an $8 mil success. However, that was his last profitable bit of animation for some time. Likewise, the Contemporary was unique and visionary. No hotel had ever been themed like it.

The second animated feature - Pinocchio. We'll call this one the Polynesian, if you will. $2.6 mil and a huge loss later, Disney had another great animated feature in Pinocchio. Boy was Walt making a name and establishing a rep with the quality and innovation.

The third - Fantasia. Perhaps we can call that the GF. I know you don't like that hotel, but it is one of the big three by the MK. The film and the hotel are very sophisticated. So, $2.28 mil later you have an even bigger loss than Pinocchio, but another landmark incorporating classical music and never before seen animation technique. The sky is the limit, right? What can we do to top the quality of these films? Walt was not a man to look back, as you know. So you say Bambi - another great film. However, lets not forget the two films that were released while Bambi was in production.

The Reluctant Dragon and Dumbo. It is recognized that after the wonderful acclaim, but significant losses, that existed after Fantasia Walt recognized that he needed to find a way to produce features that actually made money. Dragon didn't make it, but Dumbo did. Even the distributors criticized these films. Dragon was actually a compilation of three shorts that were tied together in a feature. Some felt it lacked the animation quality of his previous works. Dumbo was a sixty three minute version of what had been intended to be a thirty minute featurette. The distributor wanted another ten minutes, but Walt refused because he couldn't afford the $500k those ten minutes would cost and he saw it complete as it was at sixty three.

So what happened there? Simple as the nose on your face. Walt put out shorter, cheaper films in order to bring in some cash so production of Bambi could continue and the Walt Disney Studios could continue to grow. Boy, if someone did that today..........

We'll - lets just call Dragon and Dumbo the Carribean Beach and Dixie Landings. Did Walt compromise his standards in those two films? Not really. They were still quality animation that had good story. Dumbo is one of the most loved films. But these films were a departure from the multi million dollar budget feature. Walt evolved his thinking and changed his modus operendi in order to respond to a business need and the prevailing economic environment.

So I say the moderate hotels are a cheaper and perhaps more profitable version of WDW hotel. Did those hotels live up to the Walt standards? Perhaps not. A view of the parking lot might be bad Show. But getting to my point.......

The moderates with a Walt touch would have been a reality IMHO

.... I think Walt would have evolved his thinking regarding hotels as well. He would have found a way to make a cheaper hotel with good Show. Just because it was not a deluxe doesn't mean he wouldn't have done it. Dragon was not a deluxe film in the scheme of things either.

We can find other instances where Walt compromised - such as the Prince in Snow White whose animation was less than perfect in the final scene and Walt passed on fixing it due to cost - but I hope to explore those later in the long version of my answers to you.

Yes - that was the short answer.

Bottom line is, while Walt may not have been the greatest of business men, he was not oblivious to the need to turn a profit. All too often he said screw it. Hence the failures and losses. Shortly after Dumbo Disney was in the hole $4 mil to the bankers. However, most of the time it was to be cutting edge. As I said before - those losses represented an investment. As you point out, he survived such thinking for most of his life. That principle provided a platform. That principle had him ahead of the curve, using sound, color, multi plane cameras, etc, before the rest of the animation world.

If Walt continued to put out deluxe hotels and priced them as you suggest, he would have been looking at losses, just like Pinocchio and Fantasia. However, what platform would these have provided? A dozen deluxe hotels affordably priced and generating losses wouldn't have done much for the hotel aspect. Without exploring different options for hotels Walt would have fallen behind the curve as someone else would have done the quality, affordable moderate hotel before Walt. It wasn't Walts style to let that happen.

Moderates and ‘Walt’s touch’ cannot be in the same sentence.

This is where I believe you are wrong, my friend. Walt had a unique way of doing things. You admit he may have been swayed by events and looked down the path that WDW eventually followed in some respects. I think he would have gone down that path in his own way and given us 'moderate' resorts that you would have felt were good Show. Would he have done it just to capture a market segment? No. Because it was good business and necessary? Yes. Remember, Walt wanted his parks to be free to get in. He wanted to produce a place where families could go and have fun, quality time. If a lower priced hotel done with his flare, by his standards, afforded more people the opportunity he would have made it happen, and helped the business as well.

That is my view on the hotels - and I don't know that I see having different priced resorts as a caste system, per se. Just options - one of those things you are so fond of. Are the current levels of hotel all done to Walt standards - no. Could they have been - yes. Would Walt have - I think so. But as you point out it is all conjecture. However, do you think Walt ever envisioned WDW being the size and scope of what it is today?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

The third - Fantasia. Perhaps we can call that the GF. I know you don't like that hotel, but it is one of the big three by the MK.

My liking it has nothing whatsoever to do with it!! IT IS NOT DISNEY!! Yes! For as one can strip away amenities and theme to lower the standard so that it is no longer “Disney”, one can also get carried away at the other end of the spectrum and make a resort just too high faluting to be “Disney”. Don’t you get that? Look at the Poly and Contemporary. THOSE are the Disney standard. NOT the Floridian and NOT the Sports!! Opposite ends of the spectrum and they BOTH miss the Disney mark.

If Walt continued to put out deluxe hotels and priced them as you suggest, he would have been looking at losses, just like Pinocchio and Fantasia.

You keep referring to them as “Deluxe”!! They are not!! They are simply Disney!! See! Ei$ner’s got you brainwashed too. Don’t you get it? The original two resorts were the VALUE resorts of the time. They were not Deluxe, moderate or economy! They gave you a ridiculously magical experience, for relatively little money (remember they were priced like a moderate or even a little less)!! In other words VALUE!!!

(get ready here comes the caste system but)

But labeling these resorts as “Deluxe” and by radically raising the “price” of these once VALUE resorts they created a vacuum within that price range recently vacated. Which they filled with a very much lesser product. Which they slowly raised prices on, outdistancing inflation, until that “low end” vacuum appeared once again and they filled that need with yet LESS product. Or in other words a caste system was developed in which only the truly blessed got the real deal Disney (because there is only one standard!). Everyone else got a poor substitute diminishing down the line, depending on what you could pay for. (perhaps not a true caste system, but close enough and I liked the way it looked in print the first time I thought of it!! )

It’s funny you said that:

If Walt continued to put out deluxe hotels and priced them as you suggest, he would have been looking at losses, just like Pinocchio and Fantasia.

Why funny? Because for the first 16 years or so they turned a tidy profit and they were booked SOLID two year (or more) out!

There is no question that they made money. Now! The question you should be asking is, “did they make as much profit as their potential indicated.” In other words, did they maximize profits? Why were they the laughing stock of the hotel industry? Why did the rest of the industry think that gave away too much and charged far to little? If I grant you all those questions (and I do) it would seem to indicate that Ei$ner was right on track when he radically raised the rates to support 80% occupancy (the industry standard) instead of 100% (Disney’s standard).

But that’s where Card Walker and Ron Miller (learning from Walt) knew what they were selling and Ei$ner didn’t. Ei$ner, and perhaps you, think they are selling hotel rooms. They think they are selling a place to stay when vacationing to WDW. And they price it at the very upper edge of what the market can bear. And then they have to offer discount and incentive (read EE and E-Ticket nights) in order to fill those rooms. That is a practice that was unheard of in pre-Ei$ner days. And they pay travel agents and ADVERTISE!! Two more things that the old Disney would never even consider!! Ei$ner turned the resorts into a commodity. He has a funny habit of doing that, doesn’t he?

The old guard, however, knew their product was NOT a resort room. Or even the resort itself. It was a “DISNEY” resort experience at a tremendous VALUE!! That was their product. And since day one, way back in 1971, with NO advertising and NO rate reductions and NO incentives they enjoyed as near to 100% occupancy as can be had in the resort business.

No. The Walker/Miller problem was that they didn’t build any more resorts. The same type of resorts that they had already built. They should have stuck to their original plan and did all five or six of them. As designed. Chances are if they had and they would have opened the film vault, they wouldn’t have been ripe for take over and Ei$ner would never had had the chance to cheapen the Disney Resort Experience!! I find that really sad!! Too bad they got cold feet and let others bully them out of the master 5 year plan!!

Without exploring different options for hotels Walt would have fallen behind the curve as someone else would have done the quality, affordable moderate hotel before Walt.

Come on! Fallen behind the curve!! Since when did Walt worry about the curve! He was so far out in front that he didn’t see a curve. No! I don’t think he would have care at all. It was the experience that was all important. Not the profit margin. And As I said, the way he had them priced, they were making a profit. Just not as much as possible. But that was more than made up for with the good feelings, the positive word of mouth, and the pixie dust that was spread out all over the land for all to enjoy!! In a system with no CASTE!! Hurray!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Baron - you should know Walt well enough to know that he would, indeed, have explore new ideas and options. Out of a desire to give something more, out of necessity to bring in some money, because it was an idea he fixated on, for any number of reasons. We can go back and forth and I can point out how I think you too narrowly define and constrict the Walt Disney 'standard', but we will never really know.

I see how you conveniently ignore my animation 'proof' that Walt would changed his thinking without compromising the standard, go to a smaller scale, do something less expensive. Likewise, he might have done similarly with hotels, or perhaps decided to offer up something like the GF in time. A grand hotel like none other - a chance to give something more than he originally envisioned. Perhaps not - but you never know. However, he would have done all that his way, maintaining his 'standard' - a 'standard' that was capable of accepting evolving thinking, so long as a certain level of quality was maintained. I believe it is you that is too caught up on 'deluxe', 'moderate' and 'value'. I use those terms to simply describe the three different offerings. Yes, the original (I will use that instead of 'deluxe') hotels were a value. I think they still are today - given what you get for your dollar. But why couldn't there be something different offered?

You are right - these original hotels are simply 'Disney'. But that does not preclude other hotels done differently from being 'Disney'. Walt never said 'do it this way and only this way forever more'. He thought, he collaborated, he came up with ideas, he did things that would become industry standard before the industry had an inkling. That is how he was ahead of the curve. You are right - he never worried about falling behind that curve and I didn't say he ever did. He was too far ahead. Evolving his thinking in regard to hotels like he did with animation would have kept him so far ahead that the curve would never have been in sight. That was his way.

As to the original resorts making a profit - I can neither confirm or deny. I am curious how much a room at the Contemporary went for in 1972.

The old guard, however, knew their product was NOT a resort room. Or even the resort itself. It was a “DISNEY” resort experience at a tremendous VALUE!! That was their product.

Agreed. I am not talking about recent management and their motivations for varying types of hotels. They may have lost sight of this product. However, Walt would not have - and he still could have found a way to make that product, developed to his standards, available to more families. If that meant a 'cheaper' hotel that would cost the public less but still give the Disney experience then so be it. That is part of what he was about - providing something that as many families as possible could enjoy.

Or in other words a caste system was developed in which only the truly blessed got the real deal Disney (because there is only one standard!).

Maybe your vacuum theory would hold up with respect to the way current management views things. I might give you that. Other than that, only the Kirby man might be interested in those theories. Remember, I am talking about what Walt would have done. He most certainly could have created more Disney experience for more people if he saw a need. The 'only one standard' can be applied to a lot of different things. But just because you implement those ideals in a different setting does not make those settings non-Disney. So Walt would have left the original hotels priced as they were, climbing in price by only the rate of inflation. That would make you happy, no? I would say that might put those hotels around two bills a night now. Wow - I can get that now. But even if Walt did that, why would he not have made another hotel that he could charge half as much for, thereby opening that experience up to more families, so long as he didn't compromise his standards? If anyone could do it, Walt could give the real deal to everyone, not just the blessed. Are you saying he couldn't have? If you are I think you underestimate the man.

I applaud your strong belief and conviction in the standard. There should be more of that. However, I believe your thoughts on that standard and it's application are too set in stone and I don't agree. Just as Walt put together his 'package' pictures and had them be 'Disney' (btw - even he wasn't entirely pleased with all those pictures), just as he could stretch a 30 minute featurette into a 63 minute feature and have it be 'Disney', so could he have found a way to make more hotel concepts work if that is what he believed the public needed (even if they didn't know it) or was what the business required.

An interesting quote from Walt himself....

"I knew that I must diversify. I knew the diversifying of the business would be the salvation of it."

Interesting, huh?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. Kidds. You are interesting. You come very close to “Getting It”, and then suddenly – WHOA!! A left turn out of nowhere!!! And all because of some lousy compilation Walt was forced to do ONCE!! You know, he even tried a sequel once too. But he learned from it. And he NEVER repeated it. (You can’t top pigs with pigs!!) Is that justification for the glut of Ei$ner’s sequels?

And as far as him not being satisfied with the Prince Sequence, well I think he wasn’t satisfied with Tomorrowland when Disneyland opened. But guess what? The well had run dry. And tough choices have to be made. Hmmm. Buy a crystal chandelier for Frontierland and thus doing three-quarters of the place “right” and postpone Tomorrowland until it could be done right, too or cheapening the whole joint so it would be affordable? I think he choose wisely. And it sounds very reasonable to me!!

And what about the prince? Hmmm. Put out the picture as is or never put it out (cause there ain’t no more money folks!) and just play the existing footage at home for my wife and kids. And maybe Roy!! Again, a tough choice, but I think he made the right one. Don’t you?

Baron - you should know Walt well enough to know that he would, indeed, have explore new ideas and options.

But never at the expense of his all encompassing QUALITY!!

I see how you conveniently ignore my animation 'proof' that Walt would changed his thinking without compromising the standard, go to a smaller scale, do something less expensive. Likewise, he might have done similarly with hotels, or perhaps decided to offer up something like the GF in time. A grand hotel like none other - a chance to give something more than he originally envisioned. Perhaps not - but you never know.

Well of course we’ll never know!! That’s the whole point of this exercise, isn’t it? Conjecture and opinion. You don’t know and I don’t know. All I can do is look and observe, examine and study what he built and how he ran it! And there is nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that he ever built and/or priced that would lead me to the conclusion that he would condone the existence of the moderates, the economies or the ultra deluxe resorts and sanction them as “Disney”.

However, he would have done all that his way, maintaining his 'standard'

How? How would it be possible to reduce those standards commiserate with price and yet maintain the same standard? How is that possible? You’ve got me baffled! I can’t see it how that could happen. It’s either a Standard or it isn’t!!

I think they still are today - given what you get for your dollar.

Ahhh! But much, much, much better back then!! Before the price hikes “made” them “deluxe” resorts. About a year ago we went round and round on this and found that (and I can’t remember the actual figure but…) since Ei$ner took over the price increases nearly doubled inflation!! YES!!! Ask YoHo (if he’s still here)!!! I would be very, very happy if they had merely kept up with inflation. Paying a little below “moderate” prices for the DISNEY STANDARD!! Now that’s “VALUE”!!!

But even if Walt did that, why would he not have made another hotel that he could charge half as much for, thereby opening that experience up to more families, so long as he didn't compromise his standards?

A very good question!! And I have to ask it as well!! So let’s ask together!

“Hey Walt!! There were very extensive plans for Walt Disney World!! Remember? Marvin Davis's original master plan!? The “official” ones that were a five and ten year plan and included a COMPLETE Magic Kingdom resort complex detailed down to the last hotel location and monorail rail!! It laid out a far-reaching plan for a total of seven resorts and a campground. SO!!! WHERE ARE THE MODERATES IN THIS COMPLETE PLAN??!!”

Listen to the silence! I guess it’s a question that Walt never considered either. Because it would have reduced his (and mine) all-important quality!!! And that was the guidepost. NOT how many people could cram onto his property!!

 

[raidermatt]

There was more than one compilation. Make Mine Music and Fun and Fancy Free come to mind...

However, the point Baron makes still holds, as it does with Dumbo. And this is a point I didn't get at first either. These were not made to get at a different market, or just to increase profits. They were made because Disney was in a survival mode. They had to put out something on a budget that would sell, or likely face bankruptcy. Note that when the financial situation had stabalized, the compilations stopped.

I'm not a member of Baron's "WDW Resort Caste System" cult, however, I agree that Walt would not have built "value" resorts for profit reasons, unless it was necessary for the survival of the company.

Now, it may have turned out to become necessary, since under-utilization of assets is part of what led to the takeover attempts in 83-84. But Walt's first choice would have likely been to build more of the same type of resorts, rather than the lower priced alternatives, or more DL/MK quality theme parks, or maybe something else that would utilize the land and generate cash.

I suspect he would have done something to generate cash and keep the wolves at bay, but I have to agree with Baron that it probably wouldn't have been the values, or even the moderates.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

At the risk of offending my one and only ally on this subject (although the old JJ agreed, he doesn’t seem to posting much anymore!) I have to say:

I'm not a member of Baron's "WDW Resort Caste System" cult

Well, that’s fair enough. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority!!

however, I agree that Walt would not have built "value" resorts for profit reasons

But this automatically pays your initiation fee into “The Caste Hating He Man Club”!!

All it takes, Mr. Matt, is for you to understand that Ei$ner manipulated the market (raised prices to the ridiculous level) in order to install three separate classes of resort guest. And that Walt would have NEVER done so, BECAUSE IT DESTROYED HIS STANDARD!!!

 

[raidermatt]

I suppose its more of a problem with the societal implications of a caste system, and how I don't really think all of that applies to the WDW resorts.

I see the difference in resorts, and the philosophy that created it, but I don't see caste system as really applying.

We've gone over this before, but to me, its really no different than restaurants. Cinderella's table being the deluxe, and let's say the Electric Umbrella (Epcot FW) being the value. (I used Cosmic Ray's last time, and admittedly, that wasn't the best example).

I'd like to see a better job done with the Electric Umbrella, as well as the All Stars, but I just don't see it as a caste system.

Maybe its just semantics?

(I also suspect I don't think the values/moderates are as far off the mark as you, but I do see how they lack some show elements.)

 

[Captain Crook]

Why wouldn't Walt have built low-end accomodations? Certainly not because he was above making a cheap buck....Remember Walt was the guy who purposely had very few water fountains at DL at opening so drink sales would be high. Not very altrustic or guest oriented would you say?

To say he wouldn't have opened an ALL-Stars is simply speculative based on personal myth or faith in something that simply wasn't true IMO or, at best, cannot be proved...

 

[hopemax]

Remember Walt was the guy who purposely had very few water fountains at DL at opening so drink sales would be high.

Ummm...no.

You're running out of money and you're running out of time. You can either have the construction people finish the bathrooms or install drinking fountains. Which do you pick?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I suppose its more of a problem with the societal implications of a caste system, and how I don't really think all of that applies to the WDW resorts.

OK! Fair enough, but…

How about if I rename my little idea? Instead of “caste system” I call it,

“The subterfuge of the Walt Standard, by purposely building different levels of resorts, and charging offensive, excessive and extremely exorbitant rates for these accommodations, with the sole purpose of creating a need for lower lodging rates, just to capture wider market segments, in a purely profit motivated maneuver, that ultimately led to the collapse of “Standard Disney Quality” and more importantly juxtaposed Profit over Show which led to ultimately replacing their primary product of “the SHOW” with the mere commodity of hotel accommodations!!”

Is that a little bit better?

Captain, my friend!! Welcome to the discussion!!

With your permission, I’ll begin![ Why wouldn't Walt have built low-end accommodations?[/quote]Why weren’t they in the original plans? And what did Walt EVER build that leads you to this conclusion? Or is it, as I suspect, just a hunch?

Remember Walt was the guy who purposely had very few water fountains at DL at opening so drink sales would be high. Not very altrustic or guest oriented would you say?

Well, I’ve heard the story and I’ve heard the counter story and I really don’t know what to believe. But I can tell you that I’ve never witnessed any “sharp practices” from any of the things he produced. EVER!!! AN I don’t think you have either or I dare say, you wouldn’t be here!! Altruistic!! There are some philosophers that say that it is an impossibility. For the mere fact of being self-satisfied at your altruism, simply denies it!!

To say he wouldn't have opened an ALL-Stars is simply speculative based on personal myth or faith in something that simply wasn't true IMO or, at best, cannot be proved

So, your telling me, in your heart of hearts, that Walt would have built the All Stars? Be careful Captain. Think hard before you answer. The way others perceive your logic and sanity is at stake!!

 

[Captain Crook]

First of all, I thought my sanity was pretty much always in question around here and secondly, why should I start to think before I speak now?

hopmax, I have read in a couple of places that it was on Walt's direct order that water fountains not be readily available for the specific purpose of selling soft drinks. I'll try to find my sources.

With regard to All Star type Resorts. It is my view of Walt that he would want to take care of (and take the money of) all Americans so inclined to want to visit a Disney Park. I don't think his ideal included snobbery and I don't believe oppulence is the same as quality. Further, I don't think Walt would snub so many woking class people nor ignore their pocketbooks - I already said that, didn't I?

Although I personally have no problem with Pop Century (I'll never be staying there) I do believe Walt would have snubbed this type of garishness in its infancy and probably would have had the designers thrown out without their last paycheck! -Because Walt did have (quite obviously) good taste (subjective on my part). But I believe that good taste would also include sense enough to see that simple quality for folks less willing or able to pay deluxe prices is a no brainer.

 

[Another Voice]

"I have read in a couple of places that it was on Walt's direct order that water fountains not be readily available for the specific purpose of selling soft drinks. I'll try to find my sources."

It's an urban legend that's been traced to a negative newspaper article about the opening day of Disneyland. Most people in town thought the idea of an amusement park way out in the middle of absolute nowhere was a stupid idea - everyone was primed for the place to be a grand failure. The closet anyone can find to the "no water fountains" is that a plumer's stike delayed a lot of work on the park until the last minute. Hence, several fountains were still incomplete and the water pressure hadn't been fined either. Of course you can also claim that Walt intentionally ordered the ashaplt on Main Street should be soft so he could make a killing of all those women buying new shoes when their high heels got stuck...

As for low-end accomidations at WDW. The Company at the time deliberatley decided against building those type of hotels since they weren't Disney. Instead, they had other hotel chains build those kinds of accomidations in the hotel plaza instead. That way people that wanted to stay at a Howard Johnson level of hotel had the opporunity to do so - and Disney maintained its brand image and its standard of resort. Up until Eisner got cheap, Hotel Plaza guests got all the same benefits as Disney hotel customers and Disney even ran Disney busses to each of those hotels. Disney had each hotel maintain a high level of service and Disney ran shops and guest service counters in the hotels as well. They had as much "Disney Magic" in that regard as any of the other resorts.

 

[hopemax]

I was just going to reply with the plumber's strike, but I see AV beat me too it.

 

[Captain Crook]

Talk about beating a dead horse!!! Neighhhhh, neighhhhh!!!

I see every argument I set forth debunked! I'm starting to think you guys don't like me, sniff, sniff - Or are you just making this stuff up? Come on, fess up!

Well, I'm going to the source. As soon as Madame Cleo is out of jail I'm getting her to hook me up with Walt & if that doesn't work we'll have a seance in New Orleans Square right at the steps of Club 33...I just hope Elvis doesn't show up...The guys really getting too much press, ya know?