DEBATE: is health care a right or a privilege?

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Bob Slydell
I've been in both situations, BTW.

I lost my job -- we switched over to my DW's insurance. If DW wasn't working, I would have paid for COBRA and cut back on other expenses to be able to pay for it. One way or another, I would have made sure that I had at least a minimum level of health insurance.

Why? Because DW had cancer and I know how expensive it is to treat it -- even with good healthcare coverage, we paid something like $8,000 out of pocket over a year's period (out of something like a total of $120,000 of expenses).

I will never, ever be uninsured, no matter what it takes to ensure coverage for myself and my family.

Well it must be nice to have the financial security to allow you to be sure you will always have the money for coverage. Many people who work 40 hour weeks, live paycheck to paycheck , have no savings because they can't put money aside and if they lost their job would be without a way to pay for it until they were employed again.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
Yes. You are expected to pay for your own healthcare (if you are over 18) and if you can not, you should be at least given the option to make a payment plan.

Many people who could make payments over a period of time, are not even offered the chance if they do not have insurance.

That's called capitalism. Healthcare providers, at least the overwhelming majority of them, are in business to make money ... they are not charities. They cannot make money and remain solvent if they give away their services. They also must make careful assessments of the credit risk patients present when asking for payment plans. Given the cost of healthcare services today and the growing industry of bankruptcy, I would be reluctant to offer people payment plans, too. It's not a moral decision; it's simply a business decision.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
Well if the people do not pay back on the loans, they should be prosecuted accordingly, as with any loan.

But I think most people would make the payments if they were given the chance.

Wow, don't let all the bankruptcy attorneys advertising on radio & TV hear you saying this!!!

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by cardaway
Cry socialism all you want, but a society would be pretty foolish and short lived if they denied heallthcare to people that could not afford it.

Well, it's not a problem for the Federal Government to solve. Where is the Fed Govt given the power to take MY money to pay for YOUR healthcare?

If states want to do that, that's fine. If charities and churches want to do that, even better. I'm not saying I'm not willing to contribute to charitible causes to provided assistance for those in need. I do that quite a bit, thank you. What I have a problem with is the govt making those decisions for me.

Like PJ O'Rourke said: "If you think healthcare is expensive now; just wait until you see how much it costs when it's free"

 

[cardaway]

Originally posted by year2late
Could not afford it or will not afford it?

Could not afford it. I've seen a lot of people claim that charity would make up the difference if social programs were eliminated, but IMO they are giving their fellow Americans way too much credit.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
So why not just come out and say "If you're too poor to afford health insurance, you should just die quietly and shut the hell up about it ?"

By the way...I KNOW someone in nearly the same situation that Esmerelda described. She was diagnosed with breast cancer shortly after losing her job in a layoff. Their family has three kids, and the husband works two jobs trying to make ends meet. They are shortly going to be declaring bankruptcy due to the staggering medical bills facing them. So, by your light, my wife's friend should now be dead, since they couldn't afford the first of the procedures it has taken to keep her alive, right ?

I know you should never wish ill on someone, but I just can't help hoping that someday, people that think like that get to feel what it's like to be in that position. Somehow, I just can't believe that they'd be quite so cavalier about letting people die if it was them or their loved ones dying.

If someone doesn't have health insurance, there are options for them to explore if they need it.

BTW, I think it is very nice of you to essentially wish ill on others, like me. "I just can't help hoping that someday, people that think like that get to feel what it's like to be in that position." Nice thoughts. Glad to see the civility lessons took deep root.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by wvrevy
By the way...I KNOW someone in nearly the same situation that Esmerelda described. She was diagnosed with breast cancer shortly after losing her job in a layoff. Their family has three kids, and the husband works two jobs trying to make ends meet. They are shortly going to be declaring bankruptcy due to the staggering medical bills facing them. So, by your light, my wife's friend should now be dead, since they couldn't afford the first of the procedures it has taken to keep her alive, right ?

Not to sound "cavalier" but it sounds like the system was in place to help your friend. She did receive the medical care she needed, right?

Wile it's not the best situation out there, the situation you've described is one of the beneficial things about the current bankruptcy laws -- to help out families that are doing their best to pay all their bills and just can't quite keep their heads above water.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
That's called capitalism. Healthcare providers, at least the overwhelming majority of them, are in business to make money ... they are not charities. They cannot make money and remain solvent if they give away their services. They also must make careful assessments of the credit risk patients present when asking for payment plans. Given the cost of healthcare services today and the growing industry of bankruptcy, I would be reluctant to offer people payment plans, too. It's not a moral decision; it's simply a business decision.

The day the doctors turned into businessmen and women in this country, instead of caring people who treated the ill was a sad day.

By the way, my DBF has gone through a bankrupcy (long story - but basically he made a huge mistake and started his own business which failed after 4 years and he used personal credit cards instead of business ones to do so. He was only 26 at the time and I applaud him for at least taking the initiave to try) and if you think that people who declare bankrupcy get off scot free, you are wrong. At 32 he has so much debt, will never be able to buy a new car or house without paying ridiculously high interest (if they even give him a loan at all), there are certain loans he still has to pay, he has no ability to get credit cards etc.

Getting back on his feet has been a long, long endeavor.

Now he works in a cushy office job with a decent salary but he has no savings ect aside from his 401K. He is in no way a deadbeat, and he's better of than many in that he has a job with benefits.

But if you think that bankrupcy does not seriously damage a persons future, it does.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by Briar Rose 7457
even if you make it "affordable" some people will choose to spend their money elsewhere.

Again, why is that the govt's problem to solve? People don't have the right not to be stupid

 

[UncleKyle]

Originally posted by dmadman43
Well, it's not a problem for the Federal Government to solve. Where is the Fed Govt given the power to take MY money to pay for YOUR healthcare?

If states want to do that, that's fine. If charities and churches want to do that, even better. I'm not saying I'm not willing to contribute to charitible causes to provided assistance for those in need. I do that quite a bit, thank you. What I have a problem with is the govt making those decisions for me.

Like PJ O'Rourke said: "If you think healthcare is expensive now; just wait until you see how much it costs when it's free"

Amen

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
I never said I was for niversal Health care. I said I was for care for children whose parents are too stupid and irrresponsible to take care of them, and payment plans for people who are responsible and need care for themselves or their children who can't afford to pay it up front.

Well that is what I am saying. People should have the option of payment plans. I think a lot of people would take that option if they could not afford the $$ up front.

If the child is under 18 and has a crackhead for a parent who would rather buy drugs than get the kid chemo, then I do think we should have a safety net for those kids. It is not their fault that their parents are morons and children who can not help themselves should not have to suffer because of it.

I didn't mean to imply that you were. I understood what you meant.

I was just pointing out that most people want a Universal (no cost) Healthcare system.

 

[cardaway]

Originally posted by dmadman43
Well, it's not a problem for the Federal Government to solve. Where is the Fed Govt given the power to take MY money to pay for YOUR healthcare?

We could fill another thread with the things you DO agree it's OK to take YOUR money to pay for and I don't, so that is a REALLY weak agrument. Don't pretend it's anything but you deciding one thing is important and another is not.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by dmadman43
Again, why is that the govt's problem to solve? People don't have the right not to be stupid

Do children have the right not to be left to get sick and die because their parents are stupid?

 

[C.Ann]

I don't necessarily agree with "free" - except in the most dire of circumstances - but I think a sliding scale, based on a REALISTIC financial guideline for those who don't have health coverage, would be beneficial to all of our society in the long run..

Often times these "programs" that everyone assumes will take care of people without health coverage actually FORCE people to NOT contribute what they can..

I'm think most people are very uneducated about these programs and how they work - or don't work.. They only know that they exist and therefore they assume that they work the way they're touted.. Believe me, they don't...

 

[mep319]

It is a right. If it wasn't why would doctors take the Hippocratic Oath that states....

without fee or stipulation

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
If someone doesn't have health insurance, there are options for them to explore if they need it.

BTW, I think it is very nice of you to essentially wish ill on others, like me. "I just can't help hoping that someday, people that think like that get to feel what it's like to be in that position." Nice thoughts. Glad to see the civility lessons took deep root.

Hey, karma's a, um, female dog I would feel the same way about ANYONE that essentially said "Oh well, too bad about your luck, but my money is more important to me than your life".

 

[dmadman43]

The day the doctors turned into businessmen and women in this country, instead of caring people who treated the ill was a sad day.

So, I should spend 12 years in school to learn to be a doctor only to be beholden to the Fed Govt to determine how I am compensated?

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
The day the doctors turned into businessmen and women in this country, instead of caring people who treated the ill was a sad day.

By the way, my DBF has gone through a bankrupcy (long story - but basically he made a huge mistake and started his own business which failed after 4 years and he used personal credit cards instead of business ones to do so. He was only 26 at the time and I applaud him for at least taking the initiave to try) and if you think that people who declare bankrupcy get off scot free, you are wrong. At 32 he has so much debt, will never be able to buy a new car or house without paying ridiculously high interest (if they even give him a loan at all), there are certain loans he still has to pay, he has no ability to get credit cards etc.

Getting back on his feet has been a long, long endeavor.

Now he works in a cushy office job with a decent salary but he has no savings ect aside from his 401K. He is in no way a deadbeat, and he's better of than many in that he has a job with benefits.

But if you think that bankrupcy does not seriously damage a persons future, it does.

People make choices and in doing so should be prepared to accept the consequences of those choices. Those who declare bankruptcy should be prepared to accept the consequences of that action.

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by BedKnobbery2
Wow, broad strokes there. Has anyone here yet said it should be totally free? Affordable does not equal free. Sorry if you misunderstood that concept.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more affordable health care but I don't think a Universal Healthcare system is the answer.

One thing that should stop is the government funding for medical research for the pharmaceutical industry. Especially when they turn around and charge people (in the US) up the wazoo to recoup costs when some of those costs were paid for the people who are buying the drugs.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by dmadman43
So, I should spend 12 years in school to learn to be a doctor only to be beholden to the Fed Govt to determine how I am compensated?

If you don't think you could treat the occasional patient who is paying you via payment plan instead of with the cash in hand, than perhaps you should consider a more tradtionally business oriented career. Or be a doctor in a lab somewhere who is not treating patients.