Debate!! Do you really think that if we are just nicer that terrorists will stop?

Originally posted by Microcell
Peter Jennings said at the funeral of Pres. Reagan- to Barbara Walters. "I am so glad they are seeing this on Al-Jazera TV because maybe if the terrorists see how we revere our dead they would understand how nice we are"

Barbara- "Oh yes Peter..." I don't remember what she said after that! I was fuming!!!!

That sounds a little weird for Peter Jennings.

A lot of it has a lot to do with the psychology involved with what inspires destructive "mass movements." How did someone like Hitler get so popular? What about Ghengis Khan, and other infamous historical figures? Was it all because the rest of the world was too nice to them? Obviously a lot more is involved like everyone is saying. Something to think about?:sunny:
 
So many voters just don't know all sides of an issue and there was an interviewer asking people that support Kerry what he does for a living and like 8 out of ten thought he was the Governor of Massachussetts or didn't know that he is a Senator. UGH!

Same was true of Bush and his supporters when he first ran. Doesn't speak to the quality of the canidates but rather the apathy of the majority of Americans.

I've never heard anyone calling us to be nice to terrorists. I certainly don't think many people including most Kerry supporters think that way. I agree with wvrevy about why they attack us. Although I do think they hate us because of what they see as our immorality, but like wvrevy I really don't think thats why they attack us. They attack us because of what they see as infringemtents on their way of life. We try to insert our values, our culture on them... they do the same to us, only lacking the power we have, they use violence to do it. I don't know what the solution is. Its certainly not to give into their demands. I do think though if their was more understanding and cultural sensitivity (and I know I will get into trouble for saying that word... so understand I am NOT saying play nice, or be weak, just understand that they are a proud people who believe in their religion, their freedom, and love their land every bit as much as we do here) there would not be such an atmosphere there to breed terrorists (right now terrorist recruiting, particularly in Iraq is at its highest levels ever reported). Hindsight is 20/20 but if we had started back years and years ago (through Republicans and Democrats) with more understanding of the situation, people, and culture we were dealing with, rather then just trying to get them to see things our way, I don't think we would be going through this now.

edited because I just read saffron's very eloquent post, and agree 100%. My post above is speaking directly to the mideast Al Quieda terror threat.
 
For anyone interested in the question of why the jihadists hate us so much, I highly recommend the book "Imperial Hubris - Why the West is Losing the War on Terror" by Anonymous.

Pretty eye-opening read.
 
There is NOTHING,short of dropping of the face of the earth,
that we can do to totally stop terrorism against this country. I'm behind the effort to stop terrorism in theory but it's the awkward, poorly planned, terror like way we have entered into this situation in Iraq that I am totally against. I hate to see my friends in the military have to follow the administration into these "wars" because of one small group's loose cannon mentality. Abu Grahib is a perfect example of how there is no chain of command communication at the top because Rumsfeld allows torture in Guantanamo(I disagree with this too) everyone thinks it's ok to do it anywhere. I truly think Rush Limbaugh was
the only one(referring to conservatives) that had the kahunas to admit that he found the sexual abuse and torture
palatable and fraternity like. For that, I hate and admire him.
I hate that George Bush had to make some flip comment about
needing a permission slip to invade Iraq, we clearly did not have
the support of many/most of the thinking international leaders and then to shrug off "colateral damage" like we have done-
is simply a mortal sin. I hate terrorists. Sometimes I feel like
parts of the world see the U.S. as terrorists and I really hate
that too. I blame George Bush for a large part in that perception
of Americans around the globe. Before, we mostly were dealing with the ugly American rep because Americans expected people all over the world to speak English, trade in dollars and serve beer cold. Now we have our pit bull
president acting like a 3 year old in a temper tantrum telling the
world he will do exactly as he pleases - in the name of the citizens
of the United States of America.
Funny thing, I don't feel much emotion about this anymore. I'm
resigned to what has happened. I worry that some people don't
see the world we live in, rather their neighborhood or maybe
at times a narrow view of our country. I think that we NEED a
more rational and thoughtful approach to world politics. I want
American citizens to stay alive and although we have not much'
control over terrorist(good intelligence would be nice), what we
can control is how our military is used. Not putting them in harms
way unless all other options had been exhausted would be a good place to start. This is NOT a game of "Rise of Nations!"
We can not cavalierly sacrifice innocents on a whim and expect
good to come of it.
LONG POST.
 

Originally posted by grinningghost
For anyone interested in the question of why the jihadists hate us so much, I highly recommend the book "Imperial Hubris - Why the West is Losing the War on Terror" by Anonymous.

Pretty eye-opening read.
Isn't that the book written by one of the top intelligence guys on the middle east ? If I'm not mistaken, the guy was allowed to write the book only if he did not attach his name to it...

Haven't read it yet, but plan on picking it up at some point.
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
Isn't that the book written by one of the top intelligence guys on the middle east ? If I'm not mistaken, the guy was allowed to write the book only if he did not attach his name to it...

Haven't read it yet, but plan on picking it up at some point.

Yes.::yes:: It really makes you think that no matter what we do, it isn't going to change their minds. :(
 
Originally posted by grinningghost
Yes.::yes:: It really makes you think that no matter what we do, it isn't going to change their minds. :(
I read an article about this book and it's author in the USA Today a couple weeks back. It was pretty interesting hearing what an actual CIA expert thought of the situation, and made me definitely want to read the book. Here is the clip from Brassey Inc.'s website about the book:
Description:

Though U.S. leaders try to convince the world of their success in fighting al Qaeda, one anonymous member of the U.S. intelligence community would like to inform the public that we are, in fact, losing the war on terror. Further, until U.S. leaders recognize the errant path they have irresponsibly chosen, he says, our enemies will only grow stronger.

According to the author, the greatest danger for Americans confronting the Islamist threat is to believe—at the urging of U.S. leaders—that Muslims attack us for what we are and what we think rather than for what we do. Blustering political rhetoric “informs” the public that the Islamists are offended by the Western world’s democratic freedoms, civil liberties, inter-mingling of genders, and separation of church and state. However, although aspects of the modern world may offend conservative Muslims, no Islamist leader has fomented jihad to destroy participatory democracy, for example, the national association of credit unions, or coed universities.

Instead, a growing segment of the Islamic world strenuously disapproves of specific U.S. policies and their attendant military, political, and economic implications. Capitalizing on growing anti-U.S. animosity, Osama bin Laden’s genius lies not simply in calling for jihad, but in articulating a consistent and convincing case that Islam is under attack by America. Al Qaeda’s public statements condemn America’s protection of corrupt Muslim regimes, unqualified support for Israel, the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, and a further litany of real-world grievances. Bin Laden’s supporters thus identify their problem and believe their solution lies in war. Anonymous contends they will go to any length, not to destroy our secular, democratic way of life, but to deter what they view as specific attacks on their lands, their communities, and their religion. Unless U.S. leaders recognize this fact and adjust their policies abroad accordingly, even moderate Muslims will join the bin Laden camp.

About The Author:

Anonymous is a senior U.S. civil servant with nearly two decades of experience in the U.S. intelligence community’s work on Afghanistan and South Asia.
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
If I'm not mistaken, the guy was allowed to write the book only if he did not attach his name to it...

Haven't read it yet, but plan on picking it up at some point.
allowed by whom..???
 
The Muslim world, most notably those on the extreme side, have always harbored ill for Americans in general. (Not all Muslims, I'm not saying that). That is in response to our cultural differences in general, and our policies in particular.

Muslims have been slighted by the Christian World ever since the Crusaders pushed the last Moor back past Gibralter Rock many hundreds of years ago. (Some few Muslims are STILL angry about that and still talk about reconquest, but there are nuts in every crowd).
I'm ill informed about the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, but I think that had something to do with the West beating the East. We support Israel, which is just plain terrible to them. We give more money to the Palestinians than any other country, and that is conveniently ignored. Americans have a military presence in Saudi Arabia. But that was ok'ed by the gov't there. And depending on your POV, we were INVITED to do so in order to protect the Empire from Saddam Hussein.

There is really so so so much disagreement here that it can't be resolved.
 
Originally posted by shortbun
There is NOTHING,short of dropping of the face of the earth,
that we can do to totally stop terrorism against this country. I'm behind the effort to stop terrorism in theory but it's the awkward, poorly planned, terror like way we have entered into this situation in Iraq that I am totally against.

This is one point on which we differ. I believe, as I always have, that the War in Iraq was all about changing the face of the Muslim World. To plunk democracy right in the heart of the Middle East. I don't think that fighting terrorism was the main objective for the war. I do believe that it is the most significant expected by-product of the war, though. And I also think that it could never have been planned terribly well. On the other hand, the Marshall Plan of WWII would have been way behind compared to the progress that Iraq has seen.
I hate to see my friends in the military have to follow the administration into these "wars" because of one small group's loose cannon mentality.
They volunteered and God Bless Them for it. I would really love to see a comprehensive polling of soldiers in the armed forces on what they thought of the war and our President, but that'll never be allowed.
Abu Grahib is a perfect example of how there is no chain of command communication at the top because Rumsfeld allows torture in Guantanamo(I disagree with this too) everyone thinks it's ok to do it anywhere.
I agree and think Rummy needs to fall on the sword here.
I truly think Rush Limbaugh was
the only one(referring to conservatives) that had the kahunas to admit that he found the sexual abuse and torture
palatable and fraternity like. For that, I hate and admire him.
It was idiotic for him to make that comparison in the first place and idiotic for him to perpetuate it.
I hate that George Bush had to make some flip comment about
needing a permission slip to invade Iraq, we clearly did not have
the support of many/most of the thinking international leaders and then to shrug off "colateral damage" like we have done-
is simply a mortal sin.
I believe that Europe is too far to the socialist side for their own good, and in some cases (France) too scared of their own Muslim population to take a stand on our side even if they wanted to. There is also the issue of how heavily invested Russia, France and Germany were in Iraq. I hate to think that our wonderful European friends would stand in our way because of money but I think there is some kernel of truth in it.
I hate terrorists. Sometimes I feel like
parts of the world see the U.S. as terrorists and I really hate
that too. I blame George Bush for a large part in that perception
of Americans around the globe. Before, we mostly were dealing with the ugly American rep because Americans expected people all over the world to speak English, trade in dollars and serve beer cold. Now we have our pit bull
president acting like a 3 year old in a temper tantrum telling the
world he will do exactly as he pleases - in the name of the citizens
of the United States of America.
You hate the very thing I admire. Maybe it's a "faith" thing. Bush isn't Mr. Nuance, that's for sure. But I also believe that we aren't going to nuamce the Muslim world, especially the extremists, to the negotiating table. I think we needed to send a clear message to the extremists, and Muslims who accept terrorism even if they don't actively help in any way, that we aren't taking their hate America crap anymore, no matter what their reason is. Extremists think like barbarians and can only identify with barbarian behavior. And when barbarians fight, one must die. If they both live, they will fight again until one of them eliminates the other. I would rather see both sides not be barbarians at all.. I know that, as MAmericans, we are plenty capable of NOT being barbarians. But Muslim Terrorists? I have seen no inclination that want to negotiate in any fair and equitable way. They want their way and that's that.
Funny thing, I don't feel much emotion about this anymore. I'm
resigned to what has happened. I worry that some people don't
see the world we live in, rather their neighborhood or maybe
at times a narrow view of our country. I think that we NEED a
more rational and thoughtful approach to world politics. I want
American citizens to stay alive and although we have not much'
control over terrorist(good intelligence would be nice), what we
can control is how our military is used. Not putting them in harms
way unless all other options had been exhausted would be a good place to start. This is NOT a game of "Rise of Nations!"
We can not cavalierly sacrifice innocents on a whim and expect
good to come of it.
LONG POST.

I'll save that debate for another time. Not like we haven't covered that ground before anyway. Anyways, there's enough to respond to already! :) Agreed?
 
Originally posted by treesinger
We support Israel, which is just plain terrible to them. We give more money to the Palestinians than any other country, and that is conveniently ignored.

OK, but let's put this into perspective.

700 million total since 1996 to the Palestinians -- and here's the facts on US aid to Israel:

Aid to Israel is <b>1/3 of our foreign aid budget.</b>

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

<b>Grand Total - $84,854,827,200</b>

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel - Grand Total --- $84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

<b>Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers -- $134,791,507,200</b>

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

In addition, 1.5 billion of private money goes annually to Israel and since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees.
 
I guess I don't understand the origin of this post. I've never heard anyone say, no matter what their political leanings, that we need to be "nice" to terrorists.

I think Saffron's post hit the nail on the head.
 
Where I think where is a need for clarity here is on "being nice to terrorists" and being "nice" to regular, moderate non terrorist inclined muslims. There seems a great need to blanket Islam, with terrorists. But the two can be divided. Indeed, IMHO if we are to "conquer" in our war on terrorism it is by dividing the two that we will succeed. Divide and conquer is a well known and understood phrase.

Being "nice" to terrorists is, IMHO a waste of time. The extremists seek an unatainable goal, well one that is not acceptable to the West in general and the US in particular. There will be a loser in a military sense, either the terrorist/extremists or Western Democracies. I think the loser would be "them" not "us".

There is however, benefit in "being nice" to moderate muslims by listening to the genuine grievences they may have with the West ( or the US) and seeing if there is a way we can accommodate their wishes, views and ideals without any great loss to ourselves. If we can separate moderate and extreme Islam from one another, show the moderates that the extremists are a far greater danger to their hopes and dreams than we are, we can make the battle between the West and Islamic extremism (maybe less than 10% of their total population) as opposed to making the battle simply the West against all of Islam. A battle against extremists is one that can be won with moderate bloodshed, a battle against all Islam is won that can only be won by the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. I'm far from convinced it's a war we would win, and even if we did manage to do so, it's a fight that would cost us many of the lives of our young, much of our wealth and perhaps most importantly we would lose something of what makes our society strong and damage it's vitality. Even in victory, we could be dealt a fatal wound.

The result of America's ignoring the pleas of moderate Islam to cease, slow down or alter some of it's economic and political policies is that it backs up the claims of the extremists that America knows what it's doing and is deliberately trying to undermine Islam's sensibilities. I don't think this is the case, but I can see why moderate muslims fall to the extremists line of argument, when their own reasonable requests are treated with contempt, ignorance and a stoney silence.

I agree with much that the "anonymous" author has put forward in that quoted article, but in particular I would requote

Osama bin Laden’s genius lies not simply in calling for jihad, but in articulating a consistent and convincing case that Islam is under attack by America
I KNOW that OBL and his like are wrong when they claim Islam is under attack from America, but I can fully understand why many muslims believe that is the case. The lack of explanation of actions, the unwillingness to tone down deeds, the ignoring of perfectly reasonable requests and the relentless pushing of the Western media ( films, music, TV etc) in what seems (wrongly IMHO) to be pushing "the YOUTH/RAP CULTURE American dream" of "beeeetches ,Ho's, sex,drugs and RocknRoll" is what is REALLY dividing the West with moderate Islam.

IMHO most right wing Americans would find they have a great deal in common with moderate muslims in that both groups desire a society where their children can grow up in peace, where they do not face a world where people try to encourage their children prematurely into lives where drugs, over doses, unmarried/single teen pregnancies, "on demand abortions" and sexual disease is an everyday occurance. Where their youth show respect to their elders, where crime is not treated as a "badge of honour" among young gangs and perhaps most of all where the youth of those societies are not ridiculed, by their contemporaries, for wanting to show their devotion to their God.
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
Wow...You really have drank the kool aid there, haven't ya' ? :teeth:

You really think that the terrorists hate us because of our way of life ? You think some guy in Syrai gives a crap that my wife has a job outside the home ? :rolleyes: Come on...They may not think of us kindly because of something like that, but you honestly believe these people are blowing themselves up over women wearing bikinis ?

It's not about our "way of life"...It's about how our actions, politically, have affected them and their lives. It's about our support of Israel and our alliance with Saudi Arabia. It's about our trespassing, in their eyes, on their sacred lands. It's got NOTHING to do with "our freedom", and everything to do with THEIRS.

Now, all that said, do I think that there is anything we could realistically do to make them stop hating us ? Probably. Stop supporting Israel and completely pull our forces back from that part of the world. Is that something we should do ? Not in my opinion, no, it isn't.

It's a complicated problem, not one that is black and white. That's why we should probably have somebody in office that is capable of looking at a complex problem and seeing the nuances it contains, rather than someone who bulls his way ahead and damn the consequences.

::yes:: ::yes:: ::yes::
 
Originally posted by vernon


IMHO most right wing Americans would find they have a great deal in common with moderate muslims in that both groups desire a society where their children can grow up in peace, where they do not face a world where people try to encourage their children prematurely into lives where drugs, over doses, unmarried/single teen pregnancies, "on demand abortions" and sexual disease is an everyday occurance. Where their youth show respect to their elders, where crime is not treated as a "badge of honour" among young gangs and perhaps most of all where the youth of those societies are not ridiculed, by their contemporaries, for wanting to show their devotion to their God.

And any of my brethren on the right wing that go to extreme measures to accomplish that goal are just as much a group of wackos as the Muslim extremists are. But at least they aren't killing people.
 
Originally posted by auntpolly
OK, but let's put this into perspective.

700 million total since 1996 to the Palestinians -- and here's the facts on US aid to Israel:

Aid to Israel is <b>1/3 of our foreign aid budget.</b>

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

<b>Grand Total - $84,854,827,200</b>

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel - Grand Total --- $84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

<b>Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers -- $134,791,507,200</b>

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

In addition, 1.5 billion of private money goes annually to Israel and since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees.

I'd like you to tie this info to a point. Are you saying that Palestinians are demanding equal aid? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
 












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